EU grant for bigot marches

Iwasfrozen

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Ah poor keith. The disgraceful state of your territory has been highlighted in all its shame, for all the world to see, and the best you can do is point to posts in after hours in an attempt to attack a more enlightened and advanced culture.

I've said it to you before and I'll say it again, you lot badly need to get your act together.

More enlightened and advanced? Really? Don't pat yourself too hard on the back there. You might end up with the outline of a red hand. :eek:

KeithAFC

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Ah poor keith. The disgraceful state of your territory has been highlighted in all its shame, for all the world to see, and the best you can do is point to posts in after hours in an attempt to attack a more enlightened and advanced culture.

I've said it to you before and I'll say it again, you lot badly need to get your act together.

That wasn't from After hours. That is all fact and alleged political corruption which many people think has happened. You have thousands of Irish citizens leaving every year because they can't get work or move to the UK for higher education.

Are you really sure it is a great place to live?

Doc Ruby

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

More enlightened and advanced? Really? Don't pat yourself too hard on the back there. You might end up with the outline of a red hand. :eek:

Its not really a compliment, every other developed country is more enlightened and advanced than the north apparently.

Doc Ruby

KeithAFC wrote: »

That wasn't from After hours. That is all fact and alleged political corruption which many people think has happened. You have thousands of Irish citizens leaving every year because they can't get work or move to the UK for higher education.

Are you really sure it is a great place to live?

Yeah, its grand. Not without its problems of course, but there are economic ups and downs in every country, as well as political corruption.

None of which is ever going to hide the shame of Ulster.

What you're getting at here is because you don't like the colour of my car, its okay for you to run down pedestrians.

COYW

KeithAFC wrote: »

Quality of life is excellent? That doesn't seem to be what I am hearing. Mass unemployment, hospitals struggling, selling of your sovereignty and alleged political corruption. So it doesn't seem to be the great utopia you are trying to portray.

To be fair Keith, life down here is very comfy and pleasurable when you compare it to most places in Europe or the world. People down here just love feeling sorry for themselves.

On the original topic, EU funding like this will help the OO to become more marketable. The likes of Orangefest can be sold in a more professional manner, which will be of benefit to the order and it members looking into the future. Personally, I feel no ill towards the OO but I do think that they need to need to promote themselves in a manner more acceptable to a 2012 audience.

KeithAFC

COYW wrote: »

To be fair Keith, life down here is very comfy and pleasurable when you compare it to most places in Europe or the world. People down here just love feeling sorry for themselves.

On the original topic, EU funding like this will help the OO to become more marketable. The likes of Orangefest can be sold in a more professional manner, which will be of benefit to the order and it members looking into the future. Personally, I feel no ill towards the OO but I do think that they need to need to promote themselves in a manner more acceptable to a 2012 audience.

But you could say that about Northern Ireland too. It is the utopia attitude Doc Ruby is trying to portray about the Republic which I just don't buy into. I have heard so many views on it to be sceptical of his positive attitude.

Doc Ruby

KeithAFC wrote: »

It is the utopia attitude Doc Ruby is trying to portray about the Republic which I just don't buy into.

At no stage have I tried to portray it as a utopia. I have made out its a hell of a lot better than the north. But that doesn't matter keith, since its laughably obvious what you're trying to do is divert attention from the disgraceful shambles that is your own corner by complaining about the economic problems of the Republic in the worst global recession since the Great Depression.

Laughable doesn't even start to cover it.

fryup

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Ah poor keith. The disgraceful state of your territory has been highlighted in all its shame, for all the world to see, and the best you can do is point to posts in after hours in an attempt to attack a more enlightened and advanced culture.

enlightened and advanced culture in the republic i take it you're playing for laughs

magdeline laundries, industrial schools run by pervert priests, no contraception, no divorce, non-catholics squeezed out

up until recently this country was the most backward in western europe

Doc Ruby

fryup wrote: »

enlightened and advanced culture in the republic i take it you're playing for laughs

Every country is more enlightened and advanced than the north, it seems.

fryup wrote: »

magdeline laundries, industrial schools run by pervert priests, no contraception, no divorce, non-catholics squeezed out

up until recently this country was the most backward in western europe

What century are you living in again? And while highlighting the problems in the Republic in the last century, you're missing the fact that many European countries had serious issues at the time. Eugenics programs, not giving women the vote, and plenty more.

Which isn't the point of course, since unlike the north, those things are in the past.

Iwasfrozen

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Every country is more enlightened and advanced than the north, it seems.

What about the dem. rep of Congo? Is North Korea more enlightened and advanced then Nothern Ireland in your opinion?

Doc Ruby wrote: »

What century are you living in again? And while highlighting the problems in the Republic in the last century, you're missing the fact that many European countries had serious issues at the time. Eugenics programs, not giving women the vote, and plenty more.

The trooubles ended in the last century...

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Which isn't the point of course, since unlike the north, those things are in the past.

In the words of Pádraig Pearse "Ireland unfree shall never be at peace."

fryup

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Which isn't the point of course, since unlike the north, those things are in the past.

living in the past? yes like those people in derry a few weeks back

doopa

I think the Unionist community in the North does need this kind of investment its just a shame that the only organisation capable of getting the funding is the Orange Order. If you look at Derry, various non-aligned organisations have been able to access this Peace III funding and do something with it (for both communities). On the unionist side areas like Portadown, Lisburn etc have no where near the same kind of record in attracting this kind/level of funding. The Unionist community desperately needs community development funding but I'd argue one of the best reasons to give it money would be to free it from the legacy of organisations like the Orange Order.

And - to all the OO haters, which Unionist community organisations would you give the money to instead or is Peace III funding only for Catholic community.

Doc Ruby

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What about the dem. rep of Congo? Is North Korea more enlightened and advanced then Nothern Ireland in your opinion?

My opinion has nothing to do with it. If you can come up with statistics on racism in the Congo by all means share them with the group. I don't see what that has to do with us though, since the Taliban of Europe are sitting right on our doorstep, unlike the North Koreans.

fryup wrote: »

living in the past? yes like those people in derry a few weeks back

See lads on the one hand we have the EIU, one of the most of not the single most respected statistical groups in the world awarding Ireland prizes like "The best place to live on earth", and on the other hand we have anonymous poster "fryup" mumbling about magdalene laundries on boards. Which incidentally were more a symptom of the predatory catholic church acting like a parasite on a weak young nation, as is their habit.

Now that's not a circle that can be squared.

All of which is a sad attempt to divert attention away from the real issue of course which is the racist, homophobic and xenophobic capital that is northern Ireland.

Note, not once have there been denials from keith and his fellow travellers that there was a problem. Nor have there been protests that it even was a problem, or that anything should be done about it.

I'm gobsmacked that such openly twisted attitudes can persist in this day and age. Oh laddies, ye are in for some landing.

philstar

doopa wrote: »

I think the Unionist community in the North does need this kind of investment its just a shame that the only organisation capable of getting the funding is the Orange Order. If you look at Derry, various non-aligned organisations have been able to access this Peace III funding and do something with it (for both communities). On the unionist side areas like Portadown, Lisburn etc have no where near the same kind of record in attracting this kind/level of funding. The Unionist community desperately needs community development funding but I'd argue one of the best reasons to give it money would be to free it from the legacy of organisations like the Orange Order.

And - to all the OO haters, which Unionist community organisations would you give the money to instead or is Peace III funding only for Catholic community.

at last a level headed comment

KeithAFC

John Doe1 wrote: »

Sure l'm an Ulster Orangeman, from Erin's isle I came,
To see my British brethren all of honour and of fame,
And to tell them of my forefathers who fought in days of yore,
That I might have the right to wear, the sash my father wore!

Chorus:
It is old but it is beautiful, and its colours they are fine
It was worn at Derry, Aughrim, Enniskillen and the Boyne.
My father wore it as a youth in bygone days of yore,
And on the Twelfth I love to wear the sash my father wore.

Chorus

For those brave men who crossed the Boyne have not fought or died in vain
Our Unity, Religion, Laws, and Freedom to maintain,
If the call should come we'll follow the drum, and cross that river once more
That tomorrow's Ulsterman may wear the sash my father wore!

Chorus

And when some day, across the sea to Antrim's shore you come,
We'll welcome you in royal style, to the sound of flute and drum
And Ulster's hills shall echo still, from Rathlin to Dromore
:cool:

:pac: Donegal will rise again.

Madam

KeithAFC wrote: »

:pac: Donegal will rise again.

I didn't know it had fallen;)

Nodin

Madam wrote: »

I didn't know it had fallen;)

It's often hard to see whether or not it has, because of the rain.

Cavehill Red

doopa wrote: »

And - to all the OO haters, which Unionist community organisations would you give the money to instead or is Peace III funding only for Catholic community.

One with a track record in victim care and support, of which there are many.

fryup

Doc Ruby wrote: »

My opinion has nothing to do with it. If you can come up with statistics on racism in the Congo by all means share them with the group. I don't see what that has to do with us though, since the Taliban of Europe are sitting right on our doorstep, unlike the North Koreans..

don't exaggerate:rolleyes: ffs Taliban are anti-women ..plenty of women in the orange order

does the catholic church allow women priests??..No..so why not take a swipe at them then:cool:

Doc Ruby wrote: »

See lads on the one hand we have the EIU, one of the most of not the single most respected statistical groups in the world awarding Ireland prizes like "The best place to live on earth", ..

really why is there so many emigrating then, i take those surveys with a pinch of salt,

Doc Ruby wrote: »

and on the other hand we have anonymous poster "fryup" mumbling about magdalene laundries on boards. Which incidentally were more a symptom of the predatory catholic church acting like a parasite on a weak young nation, as is their habit...

just highlighting the failing of this country which you conveniently ignore

Doc Ruby wrote: »

All of which is a sad attempt to divert attention away from the real issue of course which is the racist, homophobic and xenophobic capital that is northern Ireland.

Note, not once have there been denials from keith and his fellow travellers that there was a problem. Nor have there been protests that it even was a problem, or that anything should be done about it.

I'm gobsmacked that such openly twisted attitudes can persist in this day and age. Oh laddies, ye are in for some landing.

yep northern ireland has racist, homophobic and xenophobic problems like every country

all i'm saying is the republic is no bed of roses either

example example example

Cavehill Red

Fryup, until the Catholic population of the Republic start marching and banging drums past the houses of their Protestant neighbours all day long, having spent the night before drunkenly celebrating around bonfires set on the fringes of their neighbourhoods, your attempts at whataboutery are defunct.
No one has suggested that the 26 counties are perfect. No one has suggested that the North is a special ring of Hell either. What has been suggested, by many posters, and perfectly reasonably in my opinion, is that the Orange Order is a despicably bigoted organisation which ought not be funded by the European Union.

Madam

Nodin wrote: »

It's often hard to see whether or not it has, because of the rain.

Actually Mayo and Galway are wetter than Donegal(I know - it surprised me too):)

Nodin

Madam wrote: »

Actually Mayo and Galway are wetter than Donegal(I know - it surprised me too):)

I am shock now.

Madam

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Fryup, until the Catholic population of the Republic start marching and banging drums past the houses of their Protestant neighbours all day long, having spent the night before drunkenly celebrating around bonfires set on the fringes of their neighbourhoods, your attempts at whataboutery are defunct.
No one has suggested that the 26 counties are perfect. No one has suggested that the North is a special ring of Hell either. What has been suggested, by many posters, and perfectly reasonably in my opinion, is that the Orange Order is a despicably bigoted organisation which ought not be funded by the European Union.

If it's so bigoted why can they march in Rossnowlagh without a bad word said to them(apart from the odd visitor from NI on 'vacation';))? My take would be they are not triumphilising in the Republic when they march (most are just out for a good day I suppose)so no one is offended.

c_man

fryup wrote: »

well they don't help matters do they...with their narrow-minded views on "foreign" sports and ban on members of the security forces not exactly inclusive either are they?

Where to even start with this one...

fryup

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No one has suggested that the North is a special ring of Hell either.

well doc ruby more or less has

Cavehill Red

Madam wrote: »

If it's so bigoted why can they march in Rossnowlagh without a bad word said to them(apart from the odd visitor from NI on 'vacation';))? My take would be they are not triumphilising in the Republic when they march (most are just out for a good day I suppose)so no one is offended.

My take is that it's done quite differently there. No boozy bonfires, no 'Kill All Taigs' facepaint, no UVF flute band banners, no inflammatory tunes, no anti-Catholic speeches, no marching through areas where they are not wanted.
If they want to try implementing that set of policies in the North, attitudes might change. That would require some soul-searching on the OO's part as to what they're about, of course.

fryup wrote:

well doc ruby more or less has

It's arguable that the North was a special ring of Hell for most of my childhood. It's a lot better now with the gradual eradication of paramilitarism, but sectarianism will continue to blight lives so long as entities like the Orange Order exist to thrive upon the hatred.

Madam

Cavehill Red wrote: »

My take is that it's done quite differently there. No boozy bonfires, no 'Kill All Taigs' facepaint, no UVF flute band banners, no inflammatory tunes, no anti-Catholic speeches, no marching through areas where they are not wanted.
QUOTE]

I wouldn't argue with you on that:)

BlitzKrieg

Cavehill Red wrote: »

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/orange-order-receives-900000-eu-grant-16146065.html

Because, um, it's a cultural festival or something, and certainly not an inflammatory intimidation of the local Catholic population.

Thanks, Brussels! :mad:

actually brussels would have earmarked a fund for *cultural events* for northen ireland. But it would have been local government who would have defined whats elgibel or not.

So you can actually complain to the EU that these funds were misappropiated if you can prove that the event is in conflict with the European law (which if it is an inflammator intimidation of catholics then the charter of human rights should be enough)

Common misconception about EU funding is that its the local governments that decide who actually gets the money.

Cavehill Red

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

actually brussels would have earmarked a fund for *cultural events* for northen ireland. But it would have been local government who would have defined whats elgibel or not.

So you can actually complain to the EU that these funds were misappropiated if you can prove that the event is in conflict with the European law (which if it is an inflammator intimidation of catholics then the charter of human rights should be enough)

Common misconception about EU funding is that its the local governments that decide who actually gets the money.

Even if these funds were 'cultural', it would still be shameful to grant them to the Orange Order. But they're not. They're supposed to go to supporting victims of the troubles, a sector in which in their centuries of history, the OO has zero track record of experience or competence.
I will be complaining, and I suggest others do likewise. There are plenty of victim support organisations in the North who could put these funds to much better use than the bigots of Schomberg House.

BlitzKrieg

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Even if these funds were 'cultural', it would still be shameful to grant them to the Orange Order. But they're not. They're supposed to go to supporting victims of the troubles, a sector in which in their centuries of history, the OO has zero track record of experience or competence.
I will be complaining, and I suggest others do likewise. There are plenty of victim support organisations in the North who could put these funds to much better use than the bigots of Schomberg House.

They are getting funding too

http://www.seupb.eu/programmes2007-2013/peaceiiiprogramme/overview.aspx

You can open a full document outlaying who's getting money from this fund in the north.

considering over 200 million euros is going into this from the EU the Orange order seems to have gotten a very small bit of the pie

It's still open and will continue to be til 2014 so other organisations can make applications too.

Also it extends to counties outside the north aswell that boarder it.

Cavehill Red

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

They are getting funding too
http://www.seupb.eu/programmes2007-2013/peaceiiiprogramme/overview.aspx
You can open a full document outlaying who's getting money from this fund in the north.
considering over 200 million euros is going into this from the EU the Orange order seems to have gotten a very small bit of the pie
It's still open and will continue to be til 2014 so other organisations can make applications too.
Also it extends to counties outside the north aswell that boarder it.

And also part of Scotland too for some of the programmes. It's an EU regional programme after all.
It's not an issue of victim organisations getting funded as well; the issue is that the Orange Order are getting funded AT ALL. That is the problem. They shouldn't be getting any of 'the pie'. They shouldn't be let near any pie. They represent the very problem that much of the PEACE III initiative (and its predecessors) aim to resolve in terms of inter-community tensions and sectarianism.

Jimoslimos

c_man wrote: »

fryup wrote: »

well they don't help matters do they...with their narrow-minded views on "foreign" sports and ban on members of the security forces not exactly inclusive either are they?

Where to even start with this one...

Indeed, the GAA aren't the perfect sporting organisation and there's lots I'd like to see different but,

1) They've allowed rugby and soccer to be played at Croke Park, anyway looking after their own self-interests is pretty standard with sporting organisations.
2) The ban on security forces doesn't exist anymore - the ban on Catholics in the OO still does though.

It should also be pointed out that the GAA have also had a Protestant president, Jack Boothman, about 20 years ago - have the OO even had 1 Catholic member. Point is, regardless of your views on the GAA, they don't belong in the same bracket as the Orange Order.

fryup

Jimoslimos wrote: »

It should also be pointed out that the GAA have also had a Protestant president, Jack Boothman, about 20 years ago - have the OO even had 1 Catholic member.

no because its a protestant organisation

does opes dei have any protestant members...no because its a catholic organisation

does the ancient order of hibernian have any protestant members ..no because its a catholic organisation

each to their own

forfuxsake

fryup wrote: »

no because its a protestant organisation

does opes dei have any protestant members...no because its a catholic organisation

does the ancient order of hibernian have any protestant members ..no because its a catholic organisation

each to their own

You are missing the point. These organisations should also not receive any funding from the EU.

fryup

sinn fein get EU funding many of their members are bigots

forfuxsake

fryup wrote: »

sinn fein get EU funding many of their members are bigots

Now you have hit the crack pipe. So every organisation or political party with individuals who are bigots should not receive funding?

This argument is asinine, juvenile and irrelevant.

fryup

forfuxsake wrote: »

You are missing the point. These organisations should also not receive any funding from the EU.

forfuxsake wrote: »

Now you have hit the crack pipe. So every organisation or political party with individuals who are bigots should not receive funding?

This argument is asinine, juvenile and irrelevant.

well you're the one who said it

Tiocfaidh Armani

fryup wrote: »

well you're the one who said it

Bit of a difference. That organisation itself is bigoted, not the odd individual member. Try keep up.

pragmatic1

KeithAFC wrote: »

Well it just goes to show you then. I have seen on here many times from people saying the place is a dump and they would leave if they could afford it. So I don't know what exactly this award proves as it doesn't seem to be true.

In fairness Keith i used to say it was a dump too until I lived in England for a while. There's a lot to be said for community. The UK, excluding N.Ireland, seems like a very cold place too me.

fryup

fryup wrote: »

sinn fein get EU funding many of their members are bigots

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Bit of a difference. That organisation itself is bigoted, not the odd individual member. Try keep up.

well to many ulster protestants sinn fein is a bigoted organisation

Cavehill Red

fryup wrote: »

well to many ulster protestants sinn fein is a bigoted organisation

Whereas the DUP is...?
We can play whataboutery all day. Political parties are not the same as an organisation founded as a hatemob with hatred built into its constitution.
There is no equivalent of the Orange Order or the other 'loyal' orders. The closest analogue, the AOH, have very few members, very few marches, and do not go through Protestant areas, display terrorist regalia, daub genocidal slogans on their faces, nor make endless hate speeches about their neighbours.
Nor, crucially, do they receive EU funding.

Tiocfaidh Armani

fryup wrote: »

well to many ulster protestants sinn fein is a bigoted organisation

To every civilised human being the Orange Order are bigoted. Of course there are many who see certain things as bigoted, them probably being bigots themselves.

steddyeddy

fryup wrote: »

no because its a protestant organisation

does opes dei have any protestant members...no because its a catholic organisation

does the ancient order of hibernian have any protestant members ..no because its a catholic organisation

each to their own

Your aware the OO forbids their members marrying catholics? The oo also stood against he catholic civil rights movement.

fryup

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Whereas the DUP is...?
We can play whataboutery all day. .

its not whataboutery, its "those in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones"

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Political parties are not the same as an organisation founded as a hatemob with hatred built into its constitution.

the IRA is a hate filled organisation, in which the politcal wing gets EU funding

Cavehill Red

fryup wrote: »

its not whataboutery, its "those in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones"

It is whataboutery. SF have more Protestant members than the DUP have Catholic ones. And both are elected political parties, like it or not, and in both cases I don't like it.
The Orange Order is a hate-filled mob, founded as such, with hate written into its constitution, whose sole purpose is to intimidate the Catholic population of Northern Ireland, unelected by anybody.

fryup wrote: »

the IRA is a hate filled organisation, in which the politcal wing gets EU funding

Firstly, the IRA are proscribed whereas the OO are not. Secondly, the IRA are no longer operating, as numerous decommissioning reports have confirmed. If you have information otherwise, feel free to contact your local PSNI station. Thirdly, the DUP were also associated with a number of paramilitary organisations yet receive EU funding.

There is no escaping the simple fact, no matter how much obfuscatory whataboutery you intend to propose, that the Orange Order is a bigoted organisation in its very purpose and structure, not to mention its activities and associations, and it is shameful that they receive a single penny of state or suprastate funding.

I'd go a lot further than that personally. I see no reason why the OO should not be prosecuted for hate crimes and proscribed as an organisation.

BlitzKrieg

Cavehill

Drop the EU special programmes website an email and ask for clarification on how the orange order hold up to article 21 of the european charter:

Article 21
Non-discrimination
1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic
features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority,
property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.
2. Within the scope of application of the Treaty establishing the European Community and of the
Treaty on European Union, and without prejudice to the special provisions of those Treaties, any
discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited.

The EU charter cannot be enforced on national laws but it does apply to the EU itself and all of it's initiatives so if you can clearly highlight cases of discrimination with the orange order then you should have a case to cut funding or put whoever approved the fund in the difficult position of justifying it at least.

but tone down the rheotoric, keep it to discrimination and avoid words like hate group. Be polite.

Cavehill Red

I've already made a complaint. But I would greatly encourage others to do likewise.

Doc Ruby

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I've already made a complaint. But I would greatly encourage others to do likewise.

Done.

Freddie59

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Also Tom Elliot attended a Catholic mass after Constable Ronan Kerr was killed and he wasn't expelled. Some hardliners complained but the organisation didn't remove him.

And there you have it. The worst kind of bigotry IMHO.

Cavehill Red

fryup wrote: »

not talking about the ban...they didn't allow "foreign/brit" sports in croker until 2007..they still have a dim view about letting their grounds open to other sports

When was the last time they played hurling at Windsor Park? Or even rugby for that matter?