EU grant for bigot marches

fryup

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Fryup, until the Catholic population of the Republic start marching and banging drums past the houses of their Protestant neighbours all day long, .

protestants in the republic are few and far between, they were driven out

Cavehill Red

fryup wrote: »

protestants in the republic are few and far between, they were driven out

Then we're agreed that there is no equivalent of the Orange Order bigots.

fryup

they were driven out by catholic bigots in the republic

so there is an equivalent of sorts

steddyeddy

fryup wrote: »

they were driven out by catholic bigots in the republic

What decade are we talking here? After the formation of the republic?

fryup

steddyeddy wrote: »

What decade are we talking here? After the formation of the republic?

1922 - present, the republic has always been a cold house for protestants

Cavehill Red

Your whataboutery never ceases. You've shifted more goalposts than the groundsman at Hackney marshes at this point.
The Protestant population in the Republic has been rising for years, by the way.
As for the cold house, it was f ucking foundering for Catholics in your little bigot statelet during that period - "Protestant parliament for a protestant people" and to hell with democracy, while the Republic was electing Protestant presidents.

steddyeddy

fryup wrote: »

1922 - present, the republic has always been a cold house for protestants

How so?

Doc Ruby

steddyeddy wrote: »

What decade are we talking here? After the formation of the republic?

More like what friggin century. Seriously, nobody cares.

BlitzKrieg

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Your whataboutery never ceases. You've shifted more goalposts than the groundsman at Hackney marshes at this point.
The Protestant population in the Republic has been rising for years, by the way.
As for the cold house, it was f ucking foundering for Catholics in your little bigot statelet during that period - "Protestant parliament for a protestant people" and to hell with democracy, while the Republic was electing Protestant presidents.

true protestants are on the rise in the republic. 8% increase in the 2006 census over a 6% increase for catholics

but it did take a nosedive in population during the initial years of the states founding and only started to pick up again in the 00s

BUT

the protestant population has always been smaller in ireland well before the founding of the state, its a reason why the plantations outside of ulster were all considered failures by the crown.

And the decline of population is matched by a similar decline in catholic population so you can not blame it's decline squarely at the feet of discrimination. Instead the more obvious answer of emmigration would explain the decline in an already small protestant population:

http://census.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=74642

fryup

Cavehill Red wrote: »

You've The Protestant population in the Republic has been rising for years, by the way..

is that so

Cavehill Red wrote: »

As for the cold house, it was ****ing foundering for Catholics in your little bigot statelet during that period - "Protestant parliament for a protestant people" and to hell with democracy, while the Republic was electing Protestant presidents.

no need for obscenities,

ya two token protestant presidents to put up the charade that the republic is a pluralist state

watch the movie a love divided its a microcosm of what protestants had to put up with

BlitzKrieg

fryup wrote: »

is that so

yes it is!

Doc Ruby

fryup wrote: »

is that so



no need for obscenities,

ya two token protestant presidents to put up the charade that the republic is a pluralist state

watch the movie a love divided its a microcosm of what protestants had to put up with

I know you poor bastards love living about two centuries behind the rest of the universe, but really, paint yourself blue and run down the street proclaiming your allegiance to great chtulhu and the pastafarian's love child, chtularian.

Nobody cares.

Cavehill Red

Correct, Blitzkrieg. A lot of Protestants simply didn't want to live in an independent Irish Republic. Many moved North, some to Britain. The ongoing DUP fantasy that independence was followed by some sort of Prod holocaust on the Southern side of the border is a brutish fantasy, as non-existent as the imaginary Ulster-Scots 'language', designed with one aim only - to invent an equivalence for the oppression and pogroms levelled upon the Catholic population of the six counties during the Stormont era.

BlitzKrieg

looking at that website...wow such leaps of logic

The relative Protestant population was more or less constant in the period 1891 to 1911.

Yes in constant decline along with the rest of the population of ireland. emmigration being the key issue. So constant yes, but in decline.

The relative Protestant population fell sharply (by over 30%) between 1911 to 1926.

seriously?

Ok a prize to anyone who can name an event that occured between 1911 and 1926 that a large number of lives was lost?

one event

lasted 4 years

happened mostly in france

and mostly it was young men doing the dying

for god

and country


anyone?

I love how the decline is blamed on protestants leaving ireland because of home rule or being intimidated.

but not a single mention of THE FIRST WORLD WAR

Oh and again the decline in population was across the board. Irish population overall dropped between 1911 and 1926. Cause you know, you didnt have to be a protestant to go fight a stupid war, catholics do it all the time too.

The relative Protestant population has been declining at a more or less constant rate since 1926.

the population in ireland had been declining constantly since 1926 again by emmigration and oh another world war! it only started to turn around in 1971, it then had a massive spike in 1981 and has been growing since.

the prostetant population did remain in decline between 1971-1991 but then started rising aswell.

It could be still emmigration or it could be the introduction of atheism and other religions in to the census that drew more from the protestant population then the catholic one.

but wow. that website you linked is a nasty piece of work. leaving out the two biggest events in the 20th century because it doesnt suit their agenda.

FOR SHAME!

Cavehill Red

fryup wrote: »

ya two token protestant presidents to put up the charade that the republic is a pluralist state

Could you remind us all how many Catholic prime ministers of Northern Ireland there have been?
And while you're at it, I'm still waiting to hear when hurling, gaelic football or even rugby were last played at Windsor. You appear to have omitted to tell me.

Nodin

fryup wrote: »

is that so



no need for obscenities,

ya two token protestant presidents to put up the charade that the republic is a pluralist state

watch the movie a love divided its a microcosm of what protestants had to put up with

Let's imagine that absolutely everything you have claimed is entirely true. What difference would that make to the nature of the Orange Order as per the OP?

fryup

catholic PMs in north...zero
protestant PMs in republic...zero

as for windsor pk the GAA have never put in a request, anyway pitch might be a wee bit small for bogball

BlitzKrieg

fryup wrote: »

catholic PMs in north...zero
protestant PMs in republic...zero

So we are changing topic again?

What about your population complaint?

Cavehill Red

fryup wrote: »

catholic PMs in north...zero
protestant PMs in republic...zero

But Protestant presidents: 2. Protestant cabinet members: too numerous to count.
And at Stormont? Exactly.

fryup wrote: »

as for windsor pk the GAA have never put in a request, anyway pitch might be a wee bit small for bogball

That didn't take long, did it? You're showing your true colours now. Not orange, nor even red, white and blue. Just pure bigot.

Nodin

fryup wrote: »

catholic PMs in north...zero
protestant PMs in republic...zero

as for windsor pk the GAA have never put in a request, anyway pitch might be a wee bit small for bogball

Sorry, would you mind getting back to me re
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78210158&postcount=217
?
Thanks.

fryup

Nodin wrote: »

Let's imagine that absolutely everything you have claimed is entirely true. What difference would that make to the nature of the Orange Order as per the OP?

i'm just trying to balance things out...

the OP doesn't want the OO getting any EU funding cause he see's it as a bigoted organisation fair enough

but what about sinn fein there's a bigoted organisation they get EU funding..republicans hold marches that would be seen as offensive to victims of IRA violence

to a certain extent the GAA is a bigoted organisation as well

Cavehill Red

fryup wrote: »

i'm just trying to balance things out...

the OP doesn't want the OO getting any EU funding cause he see's it as a bigoted organisation fair enough

but what about sinn fein there's a bigoted organisation they get EU funding..republicans hold marches that would be seen as offensive to victims of IRA violence

to a certain extent the GAA is a bigoted organisation as well

We've done this three times now already.
THERE IS NO EQUIVALENCE.
One is a hate mob, with hatred written into its constitution. The other is an elected political party, entitled to the same entitlements of all such political parties. There are bigots in all manner of organisations, be they sporting, social or political. But only the loyal orders and the paramilitaries made bigotry and sectarianism their sole and primary purpose on an organisational level.

blatantrereg

This thread has strayed quite a bit.

Anti-Protestant bigotry and anti-Catholic bigotry in Ireland as a whole feed each other. They always have and they always will while they exist.

Apparently my grandparents on one side flew a Union Jack in their garden without any issue at some point - before the Troubles started in the 70's. Things changed badly then however. Even today it would raise a few eyebrows I think.

Even around the time of the formation of the Irish Free State, there wasn't so much bad blood against Britain, or between Catholics and Protestants in this country in general. Remember that the Nationalists were only one faction among the rebels, fighting alongside socialists. The fact is that Nationalist extremists were just the ones who got power, and that was not a good thing.

The fact is that Ireland was never truly independent.

The Catholic church has been running most of the schools for generations now. Protestants wanting a decent education for their kids would need to go private - often feeding negative images conveyed of an elitist mentality. In the context, that makes no sense really does it?

From a military point of view, Ireland's sovereignty was only secure in the 20th century because of protection from the UK. This wasn't really out of the kindness of their hearts or anything: Ireland is an ideal base to launch an attack on Britain. I believe that fact was fundamental in the motivation for the ongoing occupation of the island, historically speaking.

The governments in this country have been highly corrupt, and maintained a power-base largely owing to political standpoints dating back almost a hundred years. Corruption has been tolerated and even admired to a great extent, up until recently at least. Now of course economic sovereignty has genuinely gone out the window.

Partition of the country has been disastorous. I think most people would agree with that, regardless of political stance on other matters. The revolution and the formation of the Irish Free State has proven to be a negative thing. Home Rule seemed almost inevitable - and attainable without the need for violence. [Note that the notion had considerable support in England, and among Protestants in southern Ireland.] Really this is what would have been the best outcome for the country.

Again - two sides to it, ultimately just feeding each other: Ulster Unionists were determined to block Home Rule from happening. Similarly extreme Republicans resorted to violence to try to force a complete separation. Neither was ever going to work.

Anyway back to the subject at hand. The Orange Order is an inherently bigoted organisation: And funnily enough in a way, without it and its mentality, Ireland as a whole would never have been partitioned, and would be quite likely to be still part of the British Empire - or at least the Commonwealth.

FUNKY LOVER

Fryup,I think you have lost this one,best just leave it now

Nodin

fryup wrote: »

i'm just trying to balance things out...

...and again, whether others are bigoted or not has no relevance whatsoever to the nature of the orange order.

fryup wrote: »

the OP doesn't want the OO getting any EU funding cause he see's it as a bigoted organisation fair enough...

So you admit/concede the orange orders a bigoted organisation?

fryup wrote: »

but what about sinn fein there's a bigoted organisation they get EU funding..republicans hold marches that would be seen as offensive to victims of IRA violence

You're talking about an organisation that has links with the ANC (African protestants/communists etc) , PLO, has protestant members, whose former "armed wing" as some would call it had a protestant as a founder member and who claim a protestant as the father of their political ideology. Thats far from "bigoted" in anyones langauge.

fryup wrote: »

.........
to a certain extent the GAA is a bigoted organisation as well

One could possibly argue that to an extent in the past. However there are now protestant players of various GAA games.

prinz

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Correct, Blitzkrieg. A lot of Protestants simply didn't want to live in an independent Irish Republic. Many moved North, some to Britain. The ongoing DUP fantasy that independence was followed by some sort of Prod holocaust on the Southern side of the border is a brutish fantasy, as non-existent as the imaginary Ulster-Scots 'language', designed with one aim only - to invent an equivalence for the oppression and pogroms levelled upon the Catholic population of the six counties during the Stormont era.

You didn't happen to catch a TV documentary during the week about the ethnic cleansing of Protestants that occurred in West Cork in 1922 by any chance did you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunmanway_killings

http://www.herald.ie/news/dark-memories-of-ethnic-cleansing-recalled-in-film-3081781.html

The Salters were hardworking farmers in west Cork, but their lives were turned upside down when they became the centre of sectarian warfare in the early 1920s. In April 1922, during a wave of ruthless random killings of Protestants, George's father William was stopped one night on his way home by a local man and told: "Bill boy you best be gone by morning." Leaving almost everything behind, George's family left their farm at Kilronane, near Dunmanway, and fled to England.

Still a fantasy?

BlitzKrieg

fryup wrote: »

i'm just trying to balance things out...

the OP doesn't want the OO getting any EU funding cause he see's it as a bigoted organisation fair enough

but what about sinn fein there's a bigoted organisation they get EU funding..republicans hold marches that would be seen as offensive to victims of IRA violence

to a certain extent the GAA is a bigoted organisation as well

Not the OP's position but the my position would be neither of those organisations openly discriminate. Sinn fein may have a near 0% protestant membership in the north and likely less then 2% in the republic, but if you go to their website to join the party it doesnt ask you to identify your religion and approve or refuse your application based on that.

Neither does the GAA

They may be bigoted organisations in that their base consists of a large percentage of assholes but on paper the layout and structure of the organisations are democratic in themselves and you couldnt take sinn fein to court for discrimination if another member abused you because of your religion. You'd take that individual.

the orange order on the other hand specifies that you must be protestant to join and that catholics are not allowed.

And while they are allowed as a private function to do as such, they can not and should not be eligiable to public funding and support as they are essentially not public themselves.

I have suspicion of how they got around it, but I am tired of reading through the money trail at the moment and want to sleep.

Johro

The best thing to do with Orange marches is to plain ignore them. Go about your normal business as if they weren't there.

Doc Ruby

prinz wrote: »

You didn't happen to catch a TV documentary during the week about the ethnic cleansing of Protestants that occurred in West Cork in 1922 by any chance did you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunmanway_killings

http://www.herald.ie/news/dark-memories-of-ethnic-cleansing-recalled-in-film-3081781.html



Still a fantasy?

Ten people killed being called genocide is a fantasy yes, especially if they were informers, as the article you apparently linked to and didn't bother to read states.

Seriously is the wiring in you peoples' brains on the fritz or something?

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

You ..................


Still a fantasy?

You didn't bother to note that its far from agreed that the killings were sectarian in nature, or was that too much of an inconvenient fact to have registered...?

fryup

Johro wrote: »

The best thing to do with Orange marches is to plain ignore them. Go about your normal business as if they weren't there.

exactly but they are people in the north who travel for miles around just to be "offended" to stir it up

Cavehill Red

blatantrereg wrote: »

This thread has strayed quite a bit.

Anti-Protestant bigotry and anti-Catholic bigotry in Ireland as a whole feed each other. They always have and they always will while they exist.

Apparently my grandparents on one side flew a Union Jack in their garden without any issue at some point - before the Troubles started in the 70's. Things changed badly then however. Even today it would raise a few eyebrows I think.

Even around the time of the formation of the Irish Free State, there wasn't so much bad blood against Britain, or between Catholics and Protestants in this country in general. Remember that the Nationalists were only one faction among the rebels, fighting alongside socialists. The fact is that Nationalist extremists were just the ones who got power, and that was not a good thing.

The fact is that Ireland was never truly independent.

The Catholic church has been running most of the schools for generations now. Protestants wanting a decent education for their kids would need to go private - often feeding negative images conveyed of an elitist mentality. In the context, that makes no sense really does it?

From a military point of view, Ireland's sovereignty was only secure in the 20th century because of protection from the UK. This wasn't really out of the kindness of their hearts or anything: Ireland is an ideal base to launch an attack on Britain. I believe that is the fundamental in the motivation for the ongoing occupation of the island, historically speaking.

The governments in this country have been highly corrupt, and maintained a power-base largely owing to political standpoints dating back almost a hundred years. Corruption has been tolerated and even admired to a great extent, up until recently at least. Now of course economic sovereignty has genuinely gone out the window.

Partition of the country has been disastorous. I think most people would agree with that, regardless of political stance on other matters. The revolution and the formation of the Irish Free State has proven to be a negative thing. Home Rule seemed almost inevitable - and attainable without the need for violence. [Note that the notion had considerable support in England.] Really this is what would have been the best outcome for the country.

Again - two sides to it, ultimately just feeding each other: Ulster Unionists were determined to block Home Rule from happening. Similarly extreme Republicans resorted to violence to try to force a complete separation. Neither was ever going to work.

There is a huge amount of truth in the post above. I might query the nuance of your conclusions, but I broadly agree with most of what you wrote and would go further to suggest that Britain patrol our waters, pay for our lighthouses and effectively maintain a secret service on our behalf, all only partly in self-interest.
However, where it comes to the issue of bigotry feeding off each other, while there is no doubt that is the case, I again would raise the issue of equivalence. There simply is no equivalent in the Republic to the pogroms seen against Catholics, the sustained, state-organised brutality and prejudice over decades.
And my objection to the Orange Order is that they have ever been at the centre of this - every political unionist leader has been an Orangeman. It is a form of freemasonry, but worse than that, it is the institutionalising of sectarian hatred.
When one examines Ulster Protestant culture closely, you find three things - the reformed religion, the self-amputation of their Irish heritage, and its replacement with invented chimeras, like the Cruthin myth or its current incarnation, the 'Ulster Scots' language.
Such is the hatred, centuries old now, at the heart of Orangeism that it has done the most grievous damage to its own people. Semi-detached from their British heritage at Britain's desire, Orangeism's hatred of its Catholic neighbours fostered among Ulster Protestants a loathing of all the shared elements of culture they all shared as Irish people - the music, the language, the literature and culture.
In the Republic, where Orangeism withered away to the status of an old boys' club and a single Donegal pageant, Protestants were free to engage and indeed become central in the political and cultural life of Ireland, without any diminution and in fact an enrichment of their identities and of all Irish people.
By contrast, the cancer of Orangeism and the hatred it foments has created a terribly lost people in Ulster, denuded of their own heritage, grappling around for myths and nonsense to shore up an identity beyond their religion and a sense of hatred for their neighbours.
This is why Orangeism should not be funded, should not be encouraged, should not, in fact, be permitted at all.
And to close by answering a point Keith raised earlier - yes, there is a flute band tradition among Ulster protestants, perhaps the last remnant of Irish music culture they have retained. In the event that we emerged into a post-Orange period, I'd love to see that continue and thrive, stripped of the trappings of hatred that current besmirch it.

Doc Ruby

Nodin wrote: »

You didn't bother to note that its far from agreed that the killings were sectarian in nature, or was that too much of an inconvenient fact to have registered...?

There's more people than that killed daily on the streets of Los Angeles for being called informers. I could fertilise half of Connaught to a depth of three meters with the bullshit rolling down his chin.

prinz

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Ten people killed being called genocide is a fantasy yes, especially if they were informers, as the article you apparently linked to and didn't bother to read states. Seriously is the wiring in you peoples' brains on the fritz or something?

'Alleged' informers after the fact. 10+ people being killed, from solicitors to farmers in one small area of west Cork would strike me as local ethnic cleansing yes.

Nodin wrote: »

You didn't bother to note that its far from agreed that the killings were sectarian in nature, or was that too much of an inconvenient fact to have registered...?

I wouldn't expect any less from your end anyway. I don't know what's funnier, people claiming that the Orange Order isn't bigoted or people trying to convince themselves that protestants weren't targeted for simply being protestants in this country. I have protestant friends these days who have received abuse in this country for crying out loud.

Cavehill Red

prinz wrote: »

You didn't happen to catch a TV documentary during the week about the ethnic cleansing of Protestants that occurred in West Cork in 1922 by any chance did you?

Still a fantasy?

That'd be West Cork, the region in the Republic with the second largest density of Protestants, you mean?
Yes, it's still a fantasy. Isolated violence during a war does not a holocaust make.

Cavehill Red

fryup wrote: »

exactly but they are people in the north who travel for miles around just to be "offended" to stir it up

And there are marches that walk for miles to travel through a Nationalist neighbourhood.
You don't want to offend people? Walk in your own areas then.

BlitzKrieg

From a military point of view, Ireland's sovereignty was only secure in the 20th century because of protection from the UK. This wasn't really out of the kindness of their hearts or anything: Ireland is an ideal base to launch an attack on Britain. I believe that is the fundamental in the motivation for the ongoing occupation of the island, historically speaking.

nope that was the reason for the treaty ports in the anglo-irish treaty. the british wanted to hold on to seaports. But Chamberlain handed them back during the 30's

the reason for holding on to the north was because the north did not want home rule by dublin and was willing to go to war to ensure they wouldnt be.

Johro

fryup wrote: »

exactly but they are people in the north who travel for miles around just to be "offended" to stir it up

To be fair though, the marches are designed to offend. But that's why it's best to ignore them.

Doc Ruby

prinz wrote: »

'Alleged' informers after the fact. 10+ people being killed, from solicitors to farmers in one small area of west Cork would strike me as local ethnic cleansing yes.

Here's a tip, champ. If they were killed for being informers it wasn't ethnic cleansing.

My head is fried from dealing with these nuts.

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

'Alleged' informers after the fact. 10+ people being killed, from solicitors to farmers in one small area of west Cork would strike me as local ethnic cleansing yes.
.

Evidently the whole bit about informers, "loyalist action group" and the like escaped you as well.

steddyeddy

prinz wrote: »

'Alleged' informers after the fact. 10+ people being killed, from solicitors to farmers in one small area of west Cork would strike me as local ethnic cleansing yes.



I wouldn't expect any less from your end anyway. I don't know what's funnier, people claiming that the Orange Order isn't bigoted or people trying to convince themselves that protestants weren't targeted for simply being protestants in this country. I have protestant friends these days who have received abuse in this country for crying out loud.

Then on this Island catholics and protestents were subject to ethnic cleansing by that definition. Either way an organisation which bans members marrying a certain ethnic group are not ones to be funded Imo.

Cavehill Red

Johro wrote: »

To be fair though, the marches are designed to offend. But that's why it's best to ignore them.

Hard to ignore what's outside your door for six hours at a time.

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

I wouldn't expect any less from your end anyway. I don't know what's funnier, people claiming that the Orange Order isn't bigoted or people trying to convince themselves that protestants weren't targeted for simply being protestants in this country..

I'm sure some were. That doesn't seem to be the case here, however.

prinz

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Yes, it's still a fantasy. Isolated violence during a war does not a holocaust make.

It also doesn't make it that protestants simply upped sticks and moved out of the Republic of their own free will. Some were forced out, in the Salters case they are of the opinion that locals wanted their farm and land. That simple.

Johro

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Hard to ignore what's outside your door for six hours at a time.

But the effort would be worth the effect.

fryup

Nodin wrote: »

So you admit/concede the orange orders a bigoted organisation?.

yes, as is sinn fein, as is opes dei, as is the ancient order of hibernian

sectarian bigotry is not confined to one side, as is suggested in this thread

Nodin wrote: »

You're talking about an organisation that has links with the ANC (African protestants/communists etc) , PLO, has protestant members, whose former "armed wing" as some would call it had a protestant as a founder member and who claim a protestant as the father of their political ideology. Thats far from "bigoted" in anyones langauge.
.

maybe so...but there's no getting way from the fact that the vast majority of victims of republican violence were protestants

Johro

fryup wrote: »

maybe so...but there's no getting way from the fact that the vast majority of victims of republican violence were protestants

..and the vast majority of victims of loyalist violence were catholics...
Where the f#ck does that knowledge get us? Nowhere.

Cavehill Red

Johro wrote: »

But the effort would be worth the effect.

Why should anyone have to go to efforts, which many do, including taking their holidays for the entire fortnight, just to avoid being initimidated and harrassed by sectarian drunks, and hemmed in by riot police?
Do they not have an innate human right to be able to live without such harrassment?

Nodin

fryup wrote: »

yes, as is sinn fein,

No it isn't.

fryup wrote: »

sectarian bigotry is not confined to one side, as is suggested in this thread

Nobody has said any such thing.

fryup wrote: »

maybe so...but there's no getting way from the fact that the vast majority of victims of republican violence were protestants

There's no "maybe" about it. The demographic bias of the casualties is a result of the sectarian nature of the states forces, rather than a sectarian agenda.

blatantrereg

Cavehill Red wrote: »

And to close by answering a point Keith raised earlier - yes, there is a flute band tradition among Ulster protestants, perhaps the last remnant of Irish music culture they have retained. In the event that we emerged into a post-Orange period, I'd love to see that continue and thrive, stripped of the trappings of hatred that current besmirch it.

Yeah we're on the same page there:

blatantrereg wrote: »

Grand so. Keep on marching and playing drums and stuff like that, but leave off the whole "Orange" thing and victory celebrations. Maybe hook up with the Artane Band and celebrate the Good Friday agreement or something. Sounds good no?