EU grant for bigot marches

Cavehill Red

prinz wrote: »

It also doesn't make it that protestants simply upped sticks and moved out of the Republic of their own free will. Some were forced out, in the Salters case they are of the opinion that locals wanted their farm and land. That simple.

Some may well have been forced out, just as many Catholics were forced out of the North.
There is still no remote equivalence in the Republic's treatment of Protestants to how Catholics in the North were systematically treated by the state and its agents for six or more decades.

BlitzKrieg

fryup wrote: »

yes, as is sinn fein, as is opes dei, as is the ancient order of hibernian

sectarian bigotry is not confined to one side, as is suggested in this thread

Personnally I'm just sticking around mostly because of all the factual errors being thrown out.

most of them by you.

prinz

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Some may well have been forced out, just as many Catholics were forced out of the North. There is still no remote equivalence in the Republic's treatment of Protestants to how Catholics in the North were systematically treated by the state and its agents for six or more decades.

Agreed.

Johro

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Why should anyone have to go to efforts, which many do, including taking their holidays for the entire fortnight, just to avoid being initimidated and harrassed by sectarian drunks, and hemmed in by riot police?
Do they not have an innate human right to be able to live without such harrassment?

It shouldn't be such a herculean effort to ignore them, I know very well those marches are meant to provoke but if you go around shouting and roaring about the injustice of it all aren't you giving them exactly what they want?

fryup

Nodin wrote: »

No it isn't.

well maybe not to you

Nodin wrote: »

There's no "maybe" about it. The demographic bias of the casualties is a result of the sectarian nature of the states forces, rather than a sectarian agenda

well that debatable...how about kingsmill, teebane, darkley, bloody friday, le mon

no state forces..all protestant civilians all killed by republicans

Cavehill Red

Johro wrote: »

It shouldn't be such a herculean effort to ignore them, I know very well those marches are meant to provoke but if you go around shouting and roaring about the injustice of it all aren't you giving them exactly what they want?

I'm not remotely interested in what they want. They're a bunch of seething bigots. What they want is wrong, and ought not be indulged or tolerated.
I'm interested in creating a climate of equality and fairness for all who live on this island. And that to me demonstrably includes the ability to enjoy one's own residence without being subjected to the hatred and bigotry of the Orange Order or their spin-off equivalents.
Nothing gets achieved by people hiding in their houses from the marching, trapped behind a police riot wall, hoping that they don't return too drunk and try to attack, hoping that if they don't speak out, don't draw attention, maybe it won't go so bad on them.
Screw that sh1t. Orange marches should be on agreed routes or not at all. No one should be forcibly subjected to their intimidation, which ought in any case be illegal under hate crimes legislation.

Nodin

fryup wrote: »

well maybe not to you

As demonstrated earlier, it has links with different races and religions and has and does have protestant members. It is avowedly anti-sectarian.

What has this to do with the Orange Order?

fryup wrote: »

well that debatable...how about kingsmill, teebane, darkley, bloody friday, le mon

no state forces..all protestant civilians all killed by republicans

Which again was due to the demographics of the conflict. What has this to do with the Orange Order?

Johro

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm not remotely interested in what they want. They're a bunch of seething bigots. What they want is wrong, and ought not be indulged or tolerated.
I'm interested in creating a climate of equality and fairness for all who live on this island. And that to me demonstrably includes the ability to enjoy one's own residence without being subjected to the hatred and bigotry of the Orange Order or their spin-off equivalents.
Nothing gets achieved by people hiding in their houses from the marching, trapped behind a police riot wall, hoping that they don't return too drunk and try to attack, hoping that if they don't speak out, don't draw attention, maybe it won't go so bad on them.
Screw that sh1t. Orange marches should be on agreed routes or not at all. No one should be forcibly subjected to their intimidation, which ought in any case be illegal under hate crimes legislation.

Well... I got to agree with pretty much all of that. It just seems to me that as long as you're offended, they'll march coz it's what they want. But I can see the difficulty, and you gotta remember I'm an outsider looking in.

Cavehill Red

Nodin wrote: »

Which again was due to the demographics of the conflict. What has this to do with the Orange Order?

Nodin, it has nothing to do with the Orange Order. This entire thread has seen a number of Unionist-sympathising posters, from Sutchy, to Keith to now Fryup, offering a bewildering array of whatabouteries because they know, not even deep down, but quite consciously, that the Orange Order is utterly indefensible.
They know better than anyone what it is and what it is for. Hatred of Catholics. If they've been on a march, been to the field on the twelfth and heard the blood-and-thunder speeches, they know that's the case.
And they know it's wrong. Fundamentally, morally wrong.
That's why they keep throwing new diversions into the discussion, because to focus on what the Orange Order is and what it does would force them into the position of admitting its purpose is hatred and nothing other.

fryup

fryup wrote: »

well that debatable...how about kingsmill, teebane, darkley, bloody friday, le mon
no state forces..all protestant civilians all killed by republicans

Nodin wrote: »

Which again was due to the demographics of the conflict.

it has got nothing with demographics, those people were deliberately targeted because they were protestant

Nodin wrote: »

what has this this to do with the Orange Order

i'm responding to your suggestion that republicans aren't sectarian

StupidLikeAFox

Nodin wrote: »

So you admit/concede the orange orders a bigoted organisation?

fryup wrote: »

yes, as is sinn fein, as is opes dei, as is the ancient order of hibernian

This was the point of the discussion, bigoted organisations shouldnt be getting EU funding to promote inclusiveness. Its like giving giving the FA money to promote rugby.

Im not a supporter of Sinn Fein by any stretch, however they have some credibilty as they can say they no longer engage in armed struggle, took part in the peace process etc. The Orange Order can make no such claims as, by virtue of their constitution, fundamentally sectarian.

Completely agree that the protestant community should be getting support, of an equal level to the catholic communities, but when you look at the aims of the program Im not sure that the OO are the right men for the job. The aims are:

The programme is divided into two main priorities. These are:
Reconciling Communities
Contributing to a Shared Society
It delivers these priorities through “themes” - these themes are:
To build positive relations at the local level
To acknowledge the past
To create shared public spaces
To develop key institutional capacity for a shared society

The Internet Explorer

I think the real question here is, what is the meaning of life ?

forfuxsake

I think this thread is going round in circles and getting way off-topic.

That facts are as such:

The Orange Order is a bigoted organisation and as such should not receive EU funding.

Whether or not the Klu Klux Klan, the INLA or the Famous Five are also bigoted is off the topic and not the point.

Any organisation, including the OO, that is committed to bigotry should not receive EU funding.

LordSutch

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Nodin, it has nothing to do with the Orange Order. This entire thread has seen a number of Unionist-sympathising posters, from Sutchy, to Keith to now Fryup, offering a bewildering array of whatabouteries because they know, not even deep down, but quite consciously, that the Orange Order is utterly indefensible.

Well in fairness to me, I did say the EU funding would be welcome, but only if the OO pulled their socks up by putting their bigited past behind them. I also said "It will help to drag their marches out of their narrow bigoted audience, to (trasnsform) and deliver them to a much wider cross community audience" . . .

KeithAFC

fryup wrote: »

well maybe not to you



well that debatable...how about kingsmill, teebane, darkley, bloody friday, le mon

no state forces..all protestant civilians all killed by republicans

I would like to say well done to fryup in the last few pages for not buying into the Republican propaganda. The attempt to rewrite history is astonishing. But the Protestant people in Ulster know all too well what they went through and the defying attitude was something which kept our country together.

The Orange Order deserve this funding for being a great religious fraternity for a lot of Protestants in Ulster. It will be put to good use.

Doc Ruby

KeithAFC wrote: »

I would like to say well done to fryup in the last few pages for not buying into the Republican propaganda. The attempt to rewrite history is astonishing. But the Protestant people in Ulster know all too well what they went through and the defying attitude was something which kept our country together.

The Orange Order deserve this funding for being a great religious fraternity for a lot of Protestants in Ulster. It will be put to good use.

Have you ever made love to a black woman, keith?

john why

Doc Ruby wrote: »

KeithAFC wrote: »

I would like to say well done to fryup in the last few pages for not buying into the Republican propaganda. The attempt to rewrite history is astonishing. But the Protestant people in Ulster know all too well what they went through and the defying attitude was something which kept our country together.

The Orange Order deserve this funding for being a great religious fraternity for a lot of Protestants in Ulster. It will be put to good use.

Have you ever made love to a black woman, keith?

A protestant black woman??

Chuck Stone

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Have you ever made love keith?

FYQ.

Tiocfaidh Armani

fryup wrote: »

it has got nothing with demographics, those people were deliberately targeted because they were protestant



i'm responding to your suggestion that republicans aren't sectarian

Not all of those instances were sectarian killings and you know it. We can drag out instances and label a whole cause as wrong. All armies, be it regular or guerilla, in a conflict, have committed savage acts that were morally wrong. All of them.

That doesn’t negate from the bigger picture and republicanism as an ideology is not sectarian, despite how you might try and sensationalize an argument.

keano_afc

Is there a means through which we can complain to the EU over this? Get in touch with our local MEP perhaps?

Iwasfrozen

keano_afc wrote: »

Is there a means through which we can complain to the EU over this? Get in touch with our local MEP perhaps?

Technically yes. But the EU is about as democratic as the Vatican.

ejmaztec

Is the funding for kevlar bowler hats and sashes?

Auvers

KeithAFC wrote: »

I would like to say well done to fryup in the last few pages for not buying into the Republican propaganda. The attempt to rewrite history is astonishing

laughable tripe

yeah like the Orange Order have never rewritten history to suit themselves,

and we are now labelled "republican propagandists" for thinking quite correctly that the OO are a bigoted organisation

KeithAFC

Auvers wrote: »

laughable tripe

yeah like the Orange Order have never rewritten history to suit themselves,

and we are now labelled "republican propagandists" for thinking quite correctly that the OO are a bigoted organisation

Fyrup brought up great points about Sinn Fein (the political wing of the PIRA) and other organisations like the AOH. People tried to use double standards. The rewriting of history will not work on here. You can always go and complain to the EU about it. Not that it will make any difference.

Auvers

KeithAFC wrote: »

Fyrup brought up great points about Sinn Fein (the political wing of the PIRA)

last time I looked the RIRA are now disbanded, unless you can provide proof that this isn't the case

tfitzgerald

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Have you ever made love to a black woman, keith?

Fcuk that! If Keith is going to get a black woman I want one too. I'll even wear a sash

KeithAFC

Auvers wrote: »

last time I looked the RIRA are now disbanded, unless you can provide proof that this isn't the case

Wolves in sheeps clothing springs to mind. Everyone knows what Sinn Fein represent and the members they have in the party. Irish Republican aggression supporters of Irish Republican ideals.

This was brought up about Sinn Fein and yet laughed off. Sinn Fein is the PIRA to most Protestants up here.

StupidLikeAFox

KeithAFC wrote: »

I would like to say well done to fryup in the last few pages for not buying into the Republican propaganda. The attempt to rewrite history is astonishing.

But the Orange Order is a sectarian society that discriminates based on religion, thats there own decision and thats where the problem is with regards to this funding that they got. Theres no propaganda/history rewriting involved there at all.

I dont mind if people are members as thats their own decision, but their views are not something which should be encouraged, giving funding to an organisation who actively promote discrimination is a step in the wrong direction

KeithAFC

ColHol wrote: »

But the Orange Order is a sectarian society that discriminates based on religion, thats there own decision and thats where the problem is with regards to this funding that they got. Theres no propaganda/history rewriting involved there at all.

I dont mind if people are members as thats their own decision, but their views are not something which should be encouraged, giving funding to an organisation who actively promote discrimination is a step in the wrong direction

A Protestant fraternity is wrong? They are entitled to have such an organisation. They aren't illegal. They are perfectly entitled to hold the values they have in a democratic society. I think that is what people need to get over. Not everyone has the same world view as you.

forfuxsake

KeithAFC wrote: »

A Protestant fraternity is wrong? They are entitled to have such an organisation. They aren't illegal. They are perfectly entitled to hold the values they have in a democratic society. I think that is what people need to get over. Not everyone has the same world view as you.

Do you believe the same is true for racists and neo-nazis. Yes or no?

Auvers

KeithAFC wrote: »

Wolves in sheeps clothing springs to mind. Everyone knows what Sinn Fein represent and the members they have in the party. Irish Republican aggression supporters of Irish Republican ideals.

This was brought up about Sinn Fein and yet laughed off. Sinn Fein is the PIRA to most Protestants up here.

yes more forward thinking there again by an OO supporter, grow up and leave the past behind

KeithAFC

forfuxsake wrote: »

Do you believe the same is true for racists and neo-nazis. Yes or no?

Do the police outlaw Orange Order marches? No. Are they illegal? No. There is no law in this democratic society which makes the Orange Order illegal. So it isn't a good comparison at all. It is a very weak argument.

BlitzKrieg

KeithAFC wrote: »

A Protestant fraternity is wrong? They are entitled to have such an organisation. They aren't illegal. They are perfectly entitled to hold the values they have in a democratic society. I think that is what people need to get over. Not everyone has the same world view as you.

*sigh*

I've gone over this already

they are entitled to such an organisation yes

are they entitled to be funded by a public fund no

a large part of a public fund is that it does not discriminate. Especially from the EU as the last treaty brought the charter of fundemental rights with it which is enforced on EU organisations and policies. Not on national bodies, but on EU bodies.

So an EU body giving funding to an organisation which openly discriminates is against EU law.

Now I spent a good chunking digging last night and have not event found a website for *STRIPE* or any information beyond the same announcement which makes this harder. There is a simple process to work around this. If the funding is going to a specific initive (such as STRIPE in this case) and that initive has no discrimination policies (i.e a catholic can go work for them) then yes they can claim funding but it can only be used within STRIPE and not for the orange order as a whole.

This is how most religious organisations can at times claim funding, because they would be in initives that have open policies. Such as homeless shelters etc, they cant discrminate in the initive but nothing stops them leaving 100 or so bibles around each shelter.

STRIPE could very much be doing the same, but it would mean that the money the EU handed over would be restricted to very specific tasks outlined in the initives founding and cannot be used for other OO business.

The Orange Order itself though should not claim any public funding support from anywhere as long as it persists as a private fraternity.

KeithAFC

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

*sigh*

I've gone over this already

they are entitled to such an organisation yes

are they entitled to be funded by a public fund no

a large part of a public fund is that it does not discriminate. Especially from the EU as the last treaty brought the charter of fundemental rights with it which is enforced on EU organisations and policies. Not on national bodies, but on EU bodies.

So an EU body giving funding to an organisation which openly discriminates is against EU law.

Now I spent a good chunking digging last night and have not event found a website for *STRIPE* or any information beyond the same announcement which makes this harder. There is a simple process to work around this. If the funding is going to a specific initive (such as STRIPE in this case) and that initive has no discrimination policies (i.e a catholic can go work for them) then yes they can claim funding but it can only be used within STRIPE and not for the orange order as a whole.

This is how most religious organisations can at times claim funding, because they would be in initives that have open policies. Such as homeless shelters etc, they cant discrminate in the initive but nothing stops them leaving 100 or so bibles around each shelter.

STRIPE could very much be doing the same, but it would mean that the money the EU handed over would be restricted to very specific tasks outlined in the initives founding and cannot be used for other OO business.

The Orange Order itself though should not claim any public funding support from anywhere as long as it persists as a private fraternity.

BlitzKrieg, no offense or anything but the decision has been made by the EU. They are the ones who have decided to give this funding to the Orange Order and it is up to them to make such decisions.

I am sure if they felt it was wrong to do so, they would not have given the funding to the Order. So there isn't a big problem here. Some people want to make it a problem but I am sure the EU know what they are doing.

Doc Ruby

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Fcuk that! If Keith is going to get a black woman I want one too. I'll even wear a sash

Somehow I don't think keith will ever know the silky-skinned experience of a sultry lady, as he holds views more in common with his ancestral relation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjtIVfJS4jE

Freddie59

KeithAFC wrote: »

Wolves in sheeps clothing springs to mind. Everyone knows what Sinn Fein represent and the members they have in the party. Irish Republican aggression supporters of Irish Republican ideals.

This was brought up about Sinn Fein and yet laughed off. Sinn Fein is the PIRA to most Protestants up here.

To most bigots you mean. Irish Republican aggression as opposed to the the clandestine, collusive, sneakiness of the Protestant "Loyalist"?

mongdesade

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Somehow I don't think keith will ever know the silky-skinned experience of a sultry lady, as he holds views more in common with his ancestral relation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjtIVfJS4jE

BlitzKrieg

KeithAFC wrote: »

BlitzKrieg, no offense or anything but the decision has been made by the EU. They are the ones who have decided to give this funding to the Orange Order and it is up to them to make such decisions.

I am sure if they felt it was wrong to do so, they would not have given the funding to the Order. So there isn't a big problem here. Some people want to make it a problem but I am sure the EU know what they are doing.

again actually no. As far as the EU is concerned they gave the funding to a local public body and that local body has then gone and handed it to the orange order.


EU funding works through national governments, so the actual approval of funding would have come from someone in the NI government not the EU, in fact the EU in bizarre reversal of what people normally bitch about when complaining about them would have had almost no involvment in the choice of organisation to recieve the funding, that is left entirely to the national governments.

This can be highlighted here:

the Lead Partner in any application to the PEACE III Programme should be a Public Sector Body or equivalent. Public equivalent means any legal body governed by public or private law that is:

1. Established for the specific purpose of meeting needs of general interest, not having an industrial or commercial character;*
2. Having legal personality; and
3. Either financed, for the most part, by the state, regional or local authorities, or other bodies governed by public law or subject to management supervision by those bodies or having an administrative, managerial or supervisory board, more than half of whose members are appointed by the state, regional or local authorities or by other bodies governed by public law.

*This definition does not exclude bodies partly having an industrial and commercial character, which deal with public tasks. Such bodies may be asked to submit a clarification statement issued by regional/local authorities.

The financial requirements of ERDF are such that it is considered that large public bodies, with strong governance, risk management and compliance procedures in place, will be best placed to manage and report on the funding and to deliver on the project outcomes.

as found here: http://www.seupb.eu/programmes2007-2013/peaceiiiprogramme/peaceIIIwhocanapply.aspx


what that means is that the orange order needed to have someone in a public office support their application and present it to the EU.

And the fun part of this is the vast majority of those complaints about misplaced funds etc that are levelled at the EU happen at this level where its the national entity misusing the funds.


which was the whole point of my first post on this issue: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78201286&postcount=179

chances are the OO had to go through one of these organisations: http://www.community-relations.org.uk/services/funding/

http://www.pobal.ie/Funding%20Programmes/peace/Pages/Background.aspx

So the end result is it is not only right but required that someone confirms the actual details of the STRIPE initive as either the funds were mishandled at a national level or there could in fact be a broad and open policy in place.


Either way I am not on either side of the sectarian scuffle, but on the side of information and honest fact checking.

KeithAFC

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

again actually no. As far as the EU is concerned they gave the funding to a local public body and that local body has then gone and handed it to the orange order.


EU funding works through national governments, so the actual approval of funding would have come from someone in the NI government not the EU, in fact the EU in bizarre reversal of what people normally bitch about when complaining about them would have had almost no involvment in the choice of organisation to recieve the funding, that is left entirely to the national governments.

This can be highlighted here:



as found here: http://www.seupb.eu/programmes2007-2013/peaceiiiprogramme/peaceIIIwhocanapply.aspx


what that means is that the orange order needed to have someone in a public office support their application and present it to the EU.

And the fun part of this is the vast majority of those complaints about misplaced funds etc that are levelled at the EU happen at this level where its the national entity misusing the funds.


which was the whole point of my first post on this issue: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78201286&postcount=179

chances are the OO had to go through one of these organisations: http://www.community-relations.org.uk/services/funding/

http://www.pobal.ie/Funding%20Programmes/peace/Pages/Background.aspx

So the end result is it is not only right but required that someone confirms the actual details of the STRIPE initive as either the funds were mishandled at a national level or there could in fact be a broad and open policy in place.


Either way I am not on either side of the sectarian scuffle, but on the side of information and honest fact checking.

They didn't give the fund to the Orange Order? I read they did from the title of the BBC article that they give it to the Orange Order. Either way, I don't see what they can do about it now?

forfuxsake

KeithAFC wrote: »

Do the police outlaw Orange Order marches? No. Are they illegal? No. There is no law in this democratic society which makes the Orange Order illegal. So it isn't a good comparison at all. It is a very weak argument.

Ok Keith since you were unable to answer with a yes or no, allow me to present it more simplistically.

The Orange Order does not allow catholics.

Would you consider it acceptable for a legal organisation to state that black people are not allowed to join? Yes/No

KeithAFC

forfuxsake wrote: »

Ok Keith since you were unable to answer with a yes or no, allow me to present it more simplistically.

The Orange Order does not allow catholics.

Would you consider it acceptable for a legal organisation to state that black people are not allowed to join? Yes/No

Religion and race are two completely different things. Religion is a choice, race isn't. Therein lies the difference. If a Catholic wanted to join the Orange Order, he would have to become a Protestant. Any one of any colour can join the Orange Order.

BlitzKrieg

KeithAFC wrote: »

Religion and race are two completely different things. Religion is a choice, race isn't. Therein lies the difference. If a Catholic wanted to join the Orange Order, he would have to become a Protestant. Any one of any colour can join the Orange Order.

Article 21
Non-discrimination
1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic
features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority,
property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.
2. Within the scope of application of the Treaty establishing the European Community and of the
Treaty on European Union, and without prejudice to the special provisions of those Treaties, any
discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf

Micky Dolenz

Mod

Doc Ruby, continue to bait and you will be banned.

Fair warning.

KeithAFC

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf

That is true but we are talking about how to join the Orange Order which is based on religion. Which is a choice. The bringing up of race in this discussion is completely irrelevant.

Cavehill Red

keano_afc wrote: »

Is there a means through which we can complain to the EU over this? Get in touch with our local MEP perhaps?

Email ALL MEPs, not just Irish ones. Include information about the Orange Order and the inappropriateness of their receiving money. Full list is available as a .xls file here.
Also contact the Special EU Programmes Body, who oversee this. They're here: http://www.seupb.eu/Home.aspx

Cavehill Red

KeithAFC wrote: »

BlitzKrieg, no offense or anything but the decision has been made by the EU. They are the ones who have decided to give this funding to the Orange Order and it is up to them to make such decisions.

You're wrong. The funding comes from the EU. But this funding decision was made locally, in Northern Ireland. Read the thread properly or google Peace III. The likelihood is that the SEUPB have no idea that the OO is illegitimately receiving funding.

KeithAFC wrote: »

I am sure if they felt it was wrong to do so, they would not have given the funding to the Order. So there isn't a big problem here. Some people want to make it a problem but I am sure the EU know what they are doing.

I doubt the EU know at all. But they do now that I've complained directly to Brussels and to all MEPs, and I encourage as many others as possible to do likewise.

KeithAFC

Cavehill Red wrote: »

You're wrong. The funding comes from the EU. But this funding decision was made locally, in Northern Ireland. Read the thread properly or google Peace III. The likelihood is that the SPEUB have no idea that the OO is illegitimately receiving funding.



I doubt the EU know at all. But they do now that I've complained directly to Brussels and to all MEPs, and I encourage as many others as possible to do likewise.

What good is complaining about it going to do? The Orange Order will just hand it to a Loyalist group.

tfitzgerald

KeithAFC wrote: »

Religion and race are two completely different things. Religion is a choice, race isn't. Therein lies the difference. If a Catholic wanted to join the Orange Order, he would have to become a Protestant. Any one of any colour can join the Orange Order.

In fairness to doc ruby if this isn't baiting or looking for a row I don't know what is . I say we all pretend to be protestant and join the OO and make their tea with holy water:D

Ps does this look like a per of boobs to anyone else > OO

Cavehill Red

KeithAFC wrote: »

What good is complaining about it going to do? The Orange Order will just hand it to a Loyalist group.

Complaining about it will get the decision to fund the Orange Order bigots reversed, and the money granted to an actual victims support charity instead.

KeithAFC

tfitzgerald wrote: »

In fairness to doc ruby if this isn't baiting or looking for a row I don't know what is . I say we all pretend to be protestant and join the OO and make their tea with holy water:D

Ps does this look like a per of boobs to anyone else > OO

Please don't look for trouble which isn't to be found. It is a perfectly valid and factual point.

Complaining about it will get the decision to fund the Orange Order bigots reversed, and the money granted to an actual victims support charity instead.

Fair enough. But it is all mashed up into one anyway if you mean Unionist victims because the PUL community involves the Orange and all have been affected in some way. So it is kind of irrelevant.