Harvesting rainwater / grey water

GetWithIt

Somewhat surprised it's never (as far as I can see) been asked before, but has anyone ever had a grey water system installed? Using rainwater for their toilets, gardens, etc.

I've seen the Rain Harvesting Ireland site. Their quotations page isn't live, requiring you to print off a document and send it off to them.

I assume there are plumbers out there who've done this on an ad hoc basis. If so, what are - broadly - the costs involved?

Joey the lips

I am going to sticky this for the moment. Lets hope its the start of generating an interest. Obviously no spam.

Billy Bunting

If the initial talk is correct then we're all looking at no more that €100 per yr in water charges, as converting existing would be considrably more i don't see a benefit, new build maybe.

paddy147

Billy Bunting wrote: »

If the initial talk is correct then we're all looking at no more that €100 per yr in water charges, as converting existing would be considrably more i don't see a benefit, new build maybe.

...and looks whats happening with the propperty tax.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Theres only 1 way that the water metering prices will be going and thats UPwards.:mad::mad:

Edit-Now that it will be Bord Gais in charge of "Irish Water"...then you can bet your ass that the prices will shoot up year on year with bullshyte excuses as to why the price increases are needed and justified.:rolleyes::mad:

Technoprisoner

funny this thread has come up as ive been looking into it over the last week or so.. i was wondering how you seperate the drinking water system from your toilet/shower ect

Black Bloc

We collect rainwater in italy for agricultural purposes. The system is very straightforward. Rainwater off roofs is directed into a central reservoir - below ground and sealed except for inspection cover. A regulator is programmed to pump to various zones, blending well water and rainwater when necessary. Main problem we have had is with the reservoir pump. Dirt, leaves, dust off the roofs is washed down into the reservoir. It use a tre-phase electricity supply (all our pumps are on tre-phase). I don't know if that is available for domestic setups.

Mcorriga

I am planning a new build and have got a few quotes on rain water harvesting...

the cost of such a system for just the pump and tank comes in at about 3500 to 4000 for a 6500 liter tank....This is not including the extra internal plumbing work you will need to do to fit such a system!!

this to me sounds very excessive and you will take far too long to payback...

As the orginal poster says i am wondering are there any plumbers out there that has installed such a system ad-hoc and how much would it roughly cost??

Go2Guy

I've been thinking of this for the last few weeks also.
I'm considering making one myself. I have a bungalow. I was thinking of bolting a storage tank to my gable end (just below height of shoots to allow gravity feed), diverting my roof water into it and plumbing it directly into my 2 toilets. I will also have a pipe for gardening, washing cars etc etc coming from it. The excess roof water will just continue on to a soak pit. Some primitive form of filtering (maybe at both/either sides of the tank) will be applied. I'm going the simplest route possible to avoid any need for pumps etc. It's low investment for a medium saving. If it works then I'll consider connecting my washing machine too although this would be awkward on my site.
@OP I'm hoping to put this up for the low hundreds, MAYBE €250 for a very rough estimate.
Any comments, suggestions or berating!?
G

Go2Guy

Mcorriga wrote: »

I am planning a new build and have got a few quotes on rain water harvesting...

the cost of such a system for just the pump and tank comes in at about 3500 to 4000 for a 6500 liter tank....This is not including the extra internal plumbing work you will need to do to fit such a system!!

this to me sounds very excessive and you will take far too long to payback...

As the orginal poster says i am wondering are there any plumbers out there that has installed such a system ad-hoc and how much would it roughly cost??

I think this is mad. If you think smaller/simpler and just try to save enough water for toilet flushing and maybe an outside tap and possibly your washing machine, you will invest a lot less but still save a considerably. Just my thoughts, see my previous post for what I am planning myself.
G

paddy147

Big oppertunity missed at the Ideal Home Show today.

Im quite surprised and dissmayed that there wasnt a single company there selling rainwater harvesting products.:(

Thank god that we got in for free and didnt have to pay the 14 euro entrance fee.

Boardnashea

A 6500L tank should allow you to use rainwater all year round and should include full filter system. Extra benefit of soft water (in hard water areas)giving extra life to appliances and reduced cost of cleaning agents - for yourself, your dishes, your clothes etc.

I am thinking of putting a couple of 1000L tanks in the shed and diverting the roof water in via a simple filter and then pumping back up to the attic tank to supplement the mains (2 ball cocks in the tank - rainwater over mains so pumps first if available) and a gravity branch going to hens and polytunnel.

Tanks are €60 a piece or so and there's a plumber calling in a few weeks to look at a few small jobs so this is on the list too.

One a small clarification - I always thought grey water was the waste from the sinks/showers/appliances - can be collected for use in the garden - and rainwater is the rainwater?

richiek67

Hi Folks,

Been reading the threads here, interesting. I have a few points here.
1. I cant believe there is no vision by the government and even an initative by developers to design in these things into new houses in the first place. I can appreciate the difficulties existing houses etc would have in tring to incorporate these 'green' ideas but come on, there is NO excuse for new buildings. I know people say its all about the bottom line but to be honest I think these types of houses would sell themselves, rather than the poor standard of housing developers are still throwing up.
2. Would it not be beneficial on the overall burden we all put on the grid and reservoirs with our demand for utilities...

Anyway, I was thinking that there must be a way to fill toilets, at least, to cut down on charges.
Someone on the thread mentioned a figure of 100euro a year for water charges. ARE YOU JOKING....More like 400euro . We may not have to pay for the crummy meters now but by god the gov' will make sure they get the costs out of us...you can bet your life!!!
Tell you one thing, If I have to bring the water into the toilets from rain water collectors, then I will . lol.

If anyone has some good ideas on just servicing the toilets which , if you ask me, use the majority of the water, then let me know,


Cheers

Go2Guy

Richie, check out my earlier post on what I intend doing. I don't think it gets any simpler than this. I agree that at least toilets can be flushed with "dirty" rain water without expensive filtering and cleaning systems.

Mcorriga

hi Richie,

you make a very good point but with but there is only so much money to go around. I would like to put in a rain water harvester and have got multiple quotes and they are all coming in around 3,4 grand which for me is unaffordable.

As Paddy 147 has stated there does not seem to be an appetiate to fill the void where some one wants to install a simple rain water harvester at a resonable price.

I think Go2 guy has a simple solution but I would rather keep this tank buried in the ground.....

Benster

I wanted to do this myself last year as well, and went and planned out a system using off the shelf parts just to do the toilets initially. I was near the end of the planning when I found that I would be facing a serious plumbing job to finish it. Our bathrooms each have only 1 cold feed pipe from the tank in the attic, serving toilet, sink and bath. I would have had to run separate pipes to each toilet on two floors for it to work, tearing out walls and all that stuff, so that scuppered it in the end. There was no point in going to all the trouble of outside tanks, extra attic tank, pumps etc but having just one toilet in the whole house plumbed for using it.

There was the possibility of running the new piping outside, but with the winters we've had recently, I wasn't sure how much I could protect them from freezing.

So if you're going to try it, make sure to plan it all from start to finish before you buy a thing.

B.

2 stroke

I've fitted a basic system in my own house. My motivation was mainly to keep toilets flushing during water outages, rather than saving €. We always lose water when we lose electricty.
I have 2 waterbutts outside and an extra tank in the attic, I've t'eed in to my bathroom cold after the bath, using 2 lever valves so that I can feed toilet only, or backfeed to cold taps if necessary. I use a 12 volt submersible pump to lift water to the attic through a basic inline water filter. Couple of hundred spent, but I have water butts for car washing/greenhouse anyway. Next step is to connect washing machine. In time I will probably improve the system as toilets are much cleaner looking using rainwater.

Banbh

Here in the Third World of County Clare, the water is regularly 'off'. Last week we had sunshine and no water for five days apart for a nightly trickle fill.
I have installed a system similar to Boardnashea's but am now going for the complete replacement as I don't see why I should pay for a service I don't receive.
The rain tank sits on top of the council-supply tank (both 1,000 litre IBC tanks at €50 each. There is a pump on the lower tank which takes the water to the black attic supply tank. When the council or mains supply dries up, I open a tap on the upper rain tank and fill the lower tank. (There's a filter in the connection). There's also a tap on the upper tank for outdoor use - water for garden, hens, pigs, all the usual stuff.
We use this rainwater for everything except kitchen use, which still depends on the main supply to the kitchen tap but with an under-sink filter system it will be possible to use rainwater there as well. The only other problem was in brushing teeth with the rainwater. I leave bottles of kitchen water in the bathroom for that but may put in a little manually-filled camping bottle with a tap.
Houses should be fitted with dual-supply pipes and councils should supply both drinking and other water. At the moment all council supplies are of drinking water quality which means are toilets are being flushed with Ballygowan.

paddy147

Pics I took at Bloom 2012 yesterday.

BigGeorge

Looking to see what level of treatment is required / recommended to make rainwater suitable to use as DHW, WCs, showers, cold water bathrooms taps , ( but not for drinking water). Getting very mixed messages out there!

Any advice appreciated

Banbh

As far as I can work out, there should be three types of water in your house.
1. The kitchen cold tap for drinking, cooking.
2. Hygiene water, that is, water for showers etc.
3. Untreated water for toilets, washing machines and outdoor use.

In Ireland we have one supply of finest quality water which is used for all three purposes

If you want to use rainwater for 3. then you don't have to treat it
If you want to use rainwater for 2, you would need to filter it and most people - certainly anybody in the business - will tell you that you need to purify it as well.
If you want to use rainwater for 3, you would definitely have to purify it.

I use rainwater for 3 and when the mains supply is off, I use it for 2 as well.
So far nobody in the house has had any ill effects, though I should point out that when I'm pumping rainwater through the bathrooms, I put a jug of kitchen tap water in the bathroom for brushing teeth.

It's worth remembering that the cases of - forgot the name of that bug - something sporidium, all came through the council's mains.

In the past, we used rainwater from rusty barrels, concrete tanks etc and we probably had a resistance to whatever impurities were in the water but nowadays, nothing but the finest Ballygowan is considered safe for washing your hair.

But to answer your question: You can filter rainwater for bathroom use with a 20 micron filter followed by a 5 micron filter followed by an ultra-violet light (there are kits available which neatly incorporate the three). If you see in the paper that a family with a rainwater system were poisoned by their shower, then I was wrong. Good luck.

BigGeorge

Great response, thank you.

if there was an additional level of purification beyond UV what would that be? ie would an RO or micron level ceramic cartridge doulton type filter be up to the job?looking for an economic option of course but dont want the family poisoned

Banbh

I think the answer is yes but I don't know for sure. In the dozens of websites I've searched they seem to go either reverse osmosis (RO) or ultra violet. Of course UV is pretty near perfect if the water has been filtered down to less than 5 microns first. It seems that the bacteria can be screened from the killing UV rays if they are screened behind particles.

It's amazing the different standards depending on what country you're in. I found an Australian one where they recommended dealing with a dead possum in the water tank by scooping the bits out.

Here's a link to guidelines in Texas which I found very helpful:
http://www.twdb.state.tx.us/publications/reports/RainwaterHarvestingManual_3rdedition.pdf

paddym3

just my two cents i am going putting in copper flashing in my house with intention of rain water harvesting later. dont really want to much lead in water if there a system ever developed to use water as domestic use also dont want too much lead residue if washing my cars or watering my plabtn

Banbh

Wise move. I have lead flashing and was thinking of painting it with that black tarry stuff which is sold for painting the inside of concrete water tanks. If that wears off, I was thinking of a fibreglass coating.

paddym3

Banbh wrote: »

Wise move. I have lead flashing and was thinking of painting it with that black tarry stuff which is sold for painting the inside of concrete water tanks. If that wears off, I was thinking of a fibreglass coating.

it would be bit akward but not too hard to lay cooper over the lead and guarantee a long lasting product rather the fiber glass or the like

Banbh

I was also thinking of putting a barrier in the gutter and a separate downpipe to isolate the water running down the lead vallley and only taking the water running down the tiles. It would reduce the area of roof where I can collect rain but I don't think that is ever going to be a problem here.

paddym3

how many valleys have you? you couls bond the copper to them and still have roof sealed

K.Flyer

BigGeorge wrote: »

Great response, thank you.

if there was an additional level of purification beyond UV what would that be? ie would an RO or micron level ceramic cartridge doulton type filter be up to the job?looking for an economic option of course but dont want the family poisoned

There are many different filtration systems available. But first you need to know what you have in the water that needs filtering.
If you live in /near Dublin you can take a sample for testing to Grand Canal St and they will tell you what you need.

Regarding harvesting for toilets etc, consider using a new 1000 l fuel tank with a pump, plumbing in costs will all depend on wc locations. With some float switches and a couple of motorised valves you can have a fairly cost effective system that will auto revert to your attic tank if needs be. Or cheaper again is tank and pump plumbed into wc s and a mains valve keeping it topped up in dry spells.

Banbh

Trolling rainwater websites, I have found one Irish company that will filter rainwater to drinking quality: http://www.grantwater.ie/water_treatment_products.html
I know nothing about them but they use reverse osmosis (RO) rather than ultra violet (UV). All others will only do rainwater for toilets.

@Paddy. I have one valley and a barge that have lead fitted. The slates come out over the lead, so it would be near impossible to get at it without stripping the roof.
I also have a big shed with a box-galvanised roof (the factory painted type) and might consider siting the tank there. As the water will need to be pumped to the storage tank, this might be the safest solution and pumping would also allow for installing an RO cleaning system.

I took delivery today of an EPS pump complete with little pressure tank, gauge and pressure switch for €225. I was just about to fit it but discover I need a 1" male fitting that I don't have. Arrrrrgghhh!

tred

I have posted this before, in other threads, but just letting you know how water metering works right now in many areas around the country and currently in my home town, and how its going to work when they bring it in. youll pay a standing charge for water consumption each year which gives you an allocation of litres of water for the year. Youll then pay if you go over this based on a price per litre lets say. If you have no leaks, and you dont have a laundry business running off the back of the house, then the allocaton is sufficent. So after firing out your 5 or 6 grand for a rain water harvesting system, and the maintenace that will follow with this for many years, you will still pay the basic charge anyway. so the only way I guess to avoid water charges is to bore a well. But then your hit with maintenance and running costs here as well. So when you say, this cost will go up down the line, its still going to go up for the lad that has pumped in the big investment for the harvesting system. So you cant bring cost into it I think. Ethics and environmetnal concerncs are different, but your not getting rewarded in the pocket for that right now.

Banbh

So after firing out your 5 or 6 grand for a rain water harvesting system

Mine cost around €300: €60 for an IBC tank and €200 for the pump; hydrodare pipe and fittings would bring it up to less than €300. I did the installation myself.
When water charges come in they will be low the first year and then, like all the other taxes this government is thinking up, they will increase exponentially.
At that stage I may consider going off-line and fit filtering and purification to my system.
I agree that rain-harvesting may not be cost effective for many people but as my council supply is dry for several weeks each year, rain-harvesting gives me a constant supply.