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You're all Transgender hens until Proven Otherwise!!
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Yes, sex reassignment surgery is not appropriate for people that are not genuinely transgendered. You haven't extracted some confession or admission of error from anyone, we just finally realised that you're being incredibly obtuse. I stand by my cancer/chemo therapy analogy: Someone pointing out that chemo is not helpful to people who only think they have cancer is not a clever observation, it's sallying off to fight a position no one was taking.
It's very easy to find out if you have cancer or not. Determining if someone is suitable for gender reassignment surgery is not quite so easy. So I'll stand by my position that presenting it as a 'permanent and effective solution' is only half the story. The other half is to actually get a real understanding of transgendered issues to begin with. Unfortunately that seems to take a back seat when people see surgery as a form of 'quick-fix'.... and again I'll point out that the first responses to me were of the form of 'surgery could never be the wrong choice, it's all society's fault'.... which has moved on to, 'actually yes there are people getting gender reassingment surgery who probably shouldn't have'. If you think highlighting that fact is being obtuse.. then so be it. I call it taking a balance approached to the pros and cons of surgery in general terms. But hey, go back to only presenting one side and then pretending the other side was so obvious you didn't need to express it.0 -
Not long ago you were saying no suicides after surgery could be connected with the surgery.....
No, I had not said that no suicides after surgery could be connected with the surgery, my point was that it was impossible to make blanket statements and assertions about that. You were the one who made a statement about transgender people committing suicide post-op, as if to imply there was a direct correlation.0 -
It's very easy to find out if you have cancer or not. Determining if someone is suitable for gender reassignment surgery is not quite so easy. So I'll stand by my position that presenting it as a 'permanent and effective solution' is only half the story. The other half is to actually get a real understanding of transgendered issues to begin with. Unfortunately that seems to take a back seat when people see surgery as a form of 'quick-fix'...
Quick fix? Are you kidding me? Trans issues taking a back seat? What on earth is your impression of what transition is or what it actually entails?
I'm going to ignore your deliberate misinterpretations of the position posters here have taken.0 -
No, I had not said that no suicides after surgery could be connected with the surgery, my point was that it was impossible to make blanket statements and assertions about that. You were the one who made a statement about transgender people committing suicide post-op, as if to imply there was a direct correlation.
Just highlighting that there are those for whom surgery does not give a permanent and effective solution.0 -
wonderfulname wrote: »I'm going to ignore your deliberate misinterpretations of the position posters here have taken.
Deliberate misinterpretations? Why is it that only ItsThatManAgain could see what I was actually saying from the start while it took others two pages of posts? Is it because there are people only interested in the pros of surgery rather than taking an objective view?0 -
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wonderfulname wrote: »Quick fix? Are you kidding me?
Your can get HRT tablets for about €25 and self dose. I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be for a determined person with money.
I have not read anyone in the forms that says hey hold on a second, that's dangerous, take the proper route. I'm also surprised at people who haven't told their parents even though they've started the transition without even proper therapy. The only therapy there getting is here on boards as none of their friends or family know.0 -
Just highlighting that there are those for whom surgery does not give a permanent and effective solution.
from here, the chapter "The Efficacy of surgical techniques":A comprehensive review of post-surgical follow-up studies on transsexuals, spanning a period of thirty years, concluded, “In over 80 qualitatively different case studies and reviews from 12 countries, it has been demonstrated during the last 30 years that the treatment that includes the whole process of gender reassignment is effective.” 31
Later studies have provided further evidence in support of this conclusion. Rates of regret are consistently low: one study32 calculated a regret rate of 3.8%, and found that regrets were commonly associated with poor surgical results rather than with any desire to de-transition. Another study33 found that 98% of patients expressed no regrets post-operatively. In addition, 91.6% were satisfied with their overall appearance; the other 8.4% were neutral. In a group that had previously suffered from extreme gender dysphoria, it might be considered quite remarkable that, following surgery, not one patient’s physical appearance had given cause for personal dissatisfaction.
Similar results were obtained in a study34 that observed a satisfaction rate of over 90%: “Male-to-female surgery can achieve excellent cosmetic and functional results... None of the present patients claimed to regret their
decision to undergo gender-transforming surgery.” Here again, as in other studies35, any dissatisfaction was generally associated with poor surgical results, many of which could easily be corrected through secondary surgery. Furthermore, as the quality of surgical procedures improves, it can be expected that rates of dissatisfaction should decrease over time – certainly, the most recently published study36 showed an especially high rate of satisfaction at 98%.
or another study in the US, Factors associated with satisfaction or regret following male-to-female sex reassignment surgery.This study examined factors associated with satisfaction or regret following sex reassignment surgery (SRS) in 232 male-to-female transsexuals operated on between 1994 and 2000 by one surgeon using a consistent technique. Participants, all of whom were at least 1-year postoperative, completed a written questionnaire concerning their experiences and attitudes. Participants reported overwhelmingly that they were happy with their SRS results and that SRS had greatly improved the quality of their lives. None reported outright regret and only a few expressed even occasional regret. Dissatisfaction was most strongly associated with unsatisfactory physical and functional results of surgery. Most indicators of transsexual typology, such as age at surgery, previous marriage or parenthood, and sexual orientation, were not significantly associated with subjective outcomes. Compliance with minimum eligibility requirements for SRS specified by the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association was not associated with more favorable subjective outcomes. The physical results of SRS may be more important than preoperative factors such as transsexual typology or compliance with established treatment regimens in predicting postoperative satisfaction or regret.
when people here are saying that the treatment is effective, they mean on the whole. nobody is making any claims that it's 100% effective in every single case possible and you're being really disingenuous here to imply anyone did. I think you're just making straw-man arguments.0 -
drunkmonkey wrote: »Your can get HRT tablets for about €25 and self dose.
not here in Ireland you can't, and I think there's even a risk of getting into legal trouble if you do try to buy prescription medication online, I remember one girl getting into serious trouble for it. when it comes up, everyone's advised to speak to a psychologist that can give them a diagnosis and referal to the endocrine clinic that deals with trans people in ireland.0 -
This about the pink boot craze? they don't look like transfender hens.. not if you chop their feet off... maybe they're just transgender hens in the head. Which, I'd argue, is more authentic than portraying an image0
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not here in Ireland you can't, and I think there's even a risk of getting into legal trouble if you do try to buy prescription medication online, I remember one girl getting into serious trouble for it. when it comes up, everyone's advised to speak to a psychologist that can give them a diagnosis and referal to the endocrine clinic that deals with trans people in ireland.
They can be got outside the county. Is there not someone in a forum your active in here on boards self medicating? I haven't seen screams of concern from anyone.
I do see a lot of frustration though from not getting to talk to the people they need to which isn't right either.
My point though was it is easy to start transitioning if you really want to and you will get support here even outside the law.
Blue you know who i'm talking about seem to be only getting encouragement here and no where else and has been for nearly 2 years. There is a bit of ok were with you and we'll help you through this even though none of you know him from Adam.
You really don't know who your dealing with and what kind of a muddle there actually in.0 -
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wonderfulname wrote: »Ever felt suicidal? Depressed? You're not exactly making decisions like a well adjusted person.
i have done wonderfulname, but i have chosen not to post about it in a public forum.
as Babybuff quite rightly pointed out, other posters have chosen to share their personal experiences, i have chosen not to. i hope you will appreciate and understand my position given that boards is a public forum and many users of boards are friends off boards, and i have chosen not to share that aspect of my life with them either.
so at the risk of not fully clarifying my point, i'd rather not post about my own personal experience on that subject and hope that you would understand.You feel free to go explain your opinion to the suicide statistics and I'm sure they'll shift right in line with your expectations.
Zillah with respect- statistics, in my opinion at least, are not worth the paper they're written on, as they are only facts and figures on paper and take no account of the individual as a whole person. also there is the point that they can be skewered to validate opposing points of view- ie, as many surveys and statistics as one can put forward to support a point of view, that same point of view can be refuted with statistics and surveys to oppose that point of view.
now, the quote i posted was from a doctor who specialises in treating people with genetic identity disorder, it just so happened to support my point of view. he is an expert on the subject, i am not. would you care to say the same to him?
i have explained my opinion here, to people who have said that you cannot argue with facts.
it is a fact that gender identity disorder, while it may incur mental health issues that lead to a miserable life, it does not cause one any physical disability where without medical intervention their life is at risk. it is their mental health that is at risk, but physically at least, they are able to sustain life, albeit a miserable one, as im sure many people with gender identity disorder have done throughout history, before it was even recognised as a disorder, let alone a treatment or a corrective surgical procedure was devised.
the same cannot be said though for a person who suffers from a disorder or disease that manifests itself by breaking down how the body functions physically.
this is why i make the distinction between someone who has chosen to end their life by committing suicide, and someone who has no choice whatsoever.
the person who chooses to commit suicide may FEEL like they have no other choice. the person who suffers from a physical disorder, HAS no choice.0 -
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drunkmonkey wrote: »They can be got outside the county. Is there not someone in a forum your active in here on boards self medicating? I haven't seen screams of concern from anyone.
what are you talking about here?0 -
I'm talking about what's going on in the transgender form.0
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drunkmonkey wrote: »I'm talking about what's going on in the transgender form.
the lgbt forum? I don't post there any more, so could cite an example? private message me, as I think it might be very bad to link to someone's thread in the lgbt forum if it's the case.
also, I'm not nessecarily against people self-medicating, provided they do so under the care of a GP who'll monitor things and do regular blood tests. there are health risks involved, and I would seriously encourage people to be very sure of what they're doing, have proper support and see a psychologist. but considering that many clinics in the US are moving to an informed consent model for prescribing HRT, and I've known many people online who've self-medded, it's not a huge problem if someone is doing this as long as they're taking all the proper precautions.0 -
There is examples if you have a read, it's not a biggie about the meds I was merely pointing out it is possible. It's more people like blue i'm concerned about. There's issues going on there a long time that aren't being addressed and he seems to have come to a conclusion that HRT is the answer. I'd be more inclined like one of the advisors start with the bra and see how you feel after that. Still think you can hack it after 6mts we'll start the ball rolling.
You seem very level headed it's no reflection on you or anything you said.0 -
drunkmonkey wrote: »Ok right now I don't mean to upset links it's not my intention she's been a good sport in answering questions for some of us that are very confused. It's not often we get to engage with different view points without it ending in carnage. We should Tip or hats to Links.
To answer your question this is why I think links is a man. He's attracted to women, He was born a man. Therefore the only logical conclusion you can draw is that she is man.
He does everything nature intended and is not really crossing any lines. I can't for the life of me fathom why he is a she. It's a complete contradiction.
She didn't FEEL like a man though. She's stated herself that she is now and always was a woman, her body just didn't represent that fact very well. She's happier now....where's the problem? The operation didn't hurt you!drunkmonkey wrote: »Jesus is right
Your comparing to use a nicer expression sex reassignment surgery to getting your appendix out.
Sorry but I think you'd be ****ing stupid to put a knife to yourself regardless of how you feel on the inside.
I know a couple of women who took knives to themselves just because they didn't like the perfectly good tits they had and wanted to feel more womanly. Id imagine they'd have felt a whole lot worse if they had a mickey, don't you?
People change bodies they percieve as "wrong" all the time, it's commonplace now. In fact it's probably too commonplace tbh and there are plenty of cases where psychologicaly damaged people over indulge and basically become freaks, google "the bride of wildenstein" for example.
But i don't see anything like that here, i see an unhappy person who has been helped to be happy. Surely thats a good thing?
And basically anyone who thinks it's not, and that it's ok to force people to be miserable for their own reasons, whatever those reasons may be, should take a long hard look at themselves.0 -
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Fúck! That is a catch 22 and a half!0
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Is that attachment safe to open in work?0
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I've known many people online who've self-medded, it's not a huge problem if someone is doing this as long as they're taking all the proper precautions.drunkmonkey wrote: »You seem very level headed
you've just contradicted yourself DM, in saying that another poster on an online forum sounds very level headed to be encouraging self medication. i havent changed my opinion however. self medication whatever the reason, is always wrong. any medical procedures should be carried out by a medical professional, not by an unqualified person who merely feels like they have all the information they need, to carry out such a drastic medical procedure as HRT. it is illegal here for a reason, or would you prefer to follow america's example in all things if we are to make it legal to self medicate with HRT.
to put it even more simply- just because a small section of society thinks its right, doesnt necessarily make it so for the majority. otherwise we'd have people with body dysmorphic disorder hacking off their limbs for example "because it made them happier", instead of having a medical professional perform an assessment first.sbsquarepants wrote: »She didn't FEEL like a man though. She's stated herself that she is now and always was a woman, her body just didn't represent that fact very well. She's happier now....where's the problem? The operation didn't hurt you!
the problem is exactly that which i have stated above. it would only become more apparent though if it were to become more prevalent, which, thankfully its not, because there are controls in place to see that this doesnt happen.sbsquarepants wrote: »I know a couple of women who took knives to themselves just because they didn't like the perfectly good tits they had and wanted to feel more womanly. Id imagine they'd have felt a whole lot worse if they had a mickey, don't you?
those couple of women had as you put it "perfect tits" in your opinion, not in theirs, but to stay with your point- i highly doubt these women took knives to themselves; if you are talking about breast augmentation surgery, they would've had a consultation beforehand to determine whether the surgery was necessary first of all, and secondly to determine were they a suitable candidate for breast augmentation. they would've been assessed and informed by a medical professional. this is totally different from a person who chooses to self medicate "because it will make them happier".
i could say the same of some women i know and knew of, that DO actually take a blade to themselves and choose to cut their wrists- "because it made them happier". there's a reason it's called "self harming", and it is FAR from healthy!sbsquarepants wrote: »People change bodies they percieve as "wrong" all the time, it's commonplace now. In fact it's probably too commonplace tbh and there are plenty of cases where psychologicaly damaged people over indulge and basically become freaks, google "the bride of wildenstein" for example.
But i don't see anything like that here, i see an unhappy person who has been helped to be happy. Surely thats a good thing?
i would disagree that people change their bodies they perceive as wrong all the time. people change a part of their bodies, whether that be breast augmentation or even facial surgery. the example you've given of a person with body dysmorphic disorder, and to call them a freak, is quite ironic, given that you seek to dismiss someone undergoing drastic medical procedures to change their physical sex, as something that is now "commonplace".
i see unhappy people all the time who want to die, does that mean we should let them off? we've seen a number of posters in this thread who have said that there are statistics that show transgendered people want to commit suicide. does that mean society should let them die, or try to help them to live? if i said i wanted to cut off my right leg because ever since i was a child it has caused me nothing but pain and suffering, would you think then that i should be allowed to do so, because it would make me happy?
as other posters have pointed out, when you are feeling maniacally depressed and suicidal, you are hardly in the frame of mind to be making such decisions.sbsquarepants wrote: »And basically anyone who thinks it's not, and that it's ok to force people to be miserable for their own reasons, whatever those reasons may be, should take a long hard look at themselves.
i dont think its ok for anyone to be miserable, in the same way as i dont think its ok for anyone to self medicate. and trust me, i've taken years questioning myself to come to that conclusion.0 -
the irony that this thread started off as a discussion about gender role stereotyping seems to be completely lost on you, so im not quite clear what your point was in that post.0 -
to put it even more simply- just because a small section of society thinks its right, doesnt necessarily make it so for the majority. otherwise we'd have people with body dysmorphic disorder hacking off their limbs for example "because it made them happier", instead of having a medical professional perform an assessment first..
Well, to be honest it's a tricky one. If the dysmorphia can't be fixed, who should be allowed to tell someone they must be miserable because society would prefer you to have 2 arms and 2 legs?the problem is exactly that which i have stated above. it would only become more apparent though if it were to become more prevalent, which, thankfully its not, because there are controls in place to see that this doesnt happen. .
It's major surgery, i'm not sure of the exact details but there probably arent all that many doctors capable of performing the surgery, and demand is hardly huge. I wouldn't say there are too many people who would undertake it lightly, from either side.those couple of women had as you put it "perfect tits" in your opinion, not in theirs, but to stay with your point- i highly doubt these women took knives to themselves; if you are talking about breast augmentation surgery, they would've had a consultation beforehand to determine whether the surgery was necessary first of all, and secondly to determine were they a suitable candidate for breast augmentation. they would've been assessed and informed by a medical professional. this is totally different from a person who chooses to self medicate "because it will make them happier"..
I said they had perfectly good tits, as in healthy, ie not deformed or cancerous or anything like that. The absolute only reason to change them was cosmetic, vanity. Yes there are consultations and so on but we all know it's a money racket, you wan't tits - you can have tits, so long as you also have cash. These people aren't real doctors - they're medical trained decorators! That said, my position is why not? You want to change your body, change your body. And no, of course they didn't do it themselves, took a knife to themselves is just an expression.i could say the same of some women i know and knew of, that DO actually take a blade to themselves and choose to cut their wrists- "because it made them happier". there's a reason it's called "self harming", and it is FAR from healthy!.
I don't know what your point is, i never advocated anyone self harming. People who do that are usually in need of help. But again some people do scar themselves for cosmetic reasons - and what's wrong with that? It doesn't hurt anyone else, they aren't sick in the head, they just want to change their own bodies.i would disagree that people change their bodies they perceive as wrong all the time. people change a part of their bodies, whether that be breast augmentation or even facial surgery. the example you've given of a person with body dysmorphic disorder, and to call them a freak, is quite ironic, given that you seek to dismiss someone undergoing drastic medical procedures to change their physical sex, as something that is now "commonplace"..
I think you misread me. I said people changing their bodies is commonplace - tit jobs, nose jobs, liposuction and so on. Changing sex is extremely rare. But it is just an extension really, some people don't feel right and if the technology is there to allow them change, what's the harm? Provided of course they aren't just nuts!i see unhappy people all the time who want to die, does that mean we should let them off? we've seen a number of posters in this thread who have said that there are statistics that show transgendered people want to commit suicide. does that mean society should let them die, or try to help them to live? if i said i wanted to cut off my right leg because ever since i was a child it has caused me nothing but pain and suffering, would you think then that i should be allowed to do so, because it would make me happy?
as other posters have pointed out, when you are feeling maniacally depressed and suicidal, you are hardly in the frame of mind to be making such decisions..
I think that people own their bodies and their lives. Generally speaking suicidal people have underlying mental health issues and they should be helped, not left to die. But if someone genuinely can not be helped, what gives you or me or anyone else the right to condemn them to a life of misery?
To be perfectly honest i don't have an answer to the practicalities of just allowing people to die should they wish. It's always going to hurt others and that's not right. But it is also morally wrong to force another person to endure torment for possibly decades. How could it be anything else? What gives anyone the right to force suffering on another person?
It's like euthanasia, we feel it's wrong to allow dogs and cats to suffer, but humans we don't, we actually force them to. How does that make sense?i dont think its ok for anyone to be miserable, in the same way as i dont think its ok for anyone to self medicate. and trust me, i've taken years questioning myself to come to that conclusion.
Self medication is of course fraught with danger, i wouldn't recomend it.
So is a life of misery, i wouldn't recomend that either.
I don't have any answer for any of these problems, i'm just saying it CAN NOT BE RIGHT to tell people they MUST suffer when the technology is there to help but we just don't really like using it. That's all. I honestly don't see how any open minded person could disagree with that.0 -
sbsquarepants wrote: »Well, to be honest it's a tricky one. If the dysmorphia can't be fixed, who should be allowed to tell someone they must be miserable because society would prefer you to have 2 arms and 2 legs?
i dont think SB its that society would prefer them to have two arms and two legs, but i see where you're coming from- if a person themselves makes the decision to change their physical sex, of their own free will, and being of sound mind, they should be free to do so?
i think that would be a dangerous precedent to set out with, that could very quickly descend into self-diagnoses and self-mutilation. and before anyone jumps on me for using the word "mutilation", i use it in the context that someone self-harming is mutilating their own body as opposed to an experienced professional surgeon who is trained in medical procedures and will use precision instruments and tools and their knowledge and experience combined, to perform any medical procedures without leaving the person mutilated.
if we were to go down that road SB i believe there would be no turning back, we're already somewhat down that road with people who have no medical training advising other people on the internet on what they assume are the correct HRT doses and so forth, the old "did me no harm, try a small bit first though" adage comes to mind. and this to me is akin to a back street drug pusher influencing a weak minded individual to try drugs, with no knowledge of how it will affect them, just because it "did them no harm". the person advocating self medication then has no responsibility towards after care of the person they encouraged to try such a drastic medical procedure in the first place, only just turn around and say "oops, that didnt go as expected, you're on your own mate!".
i hope that gives a clearer understanding of where im coming from now?sbsquarepants wrote: »It's major surgery, i'm not sure of the exact details but there probably arent all that many doctors capable of performing the surgery, and demand is hardly huge. I wouldn't say there are too many people who would undertake it lightly, from either side.
as you pointed out later on in your own post, if it became more prevalent, you can guarantee there will be bandwagon jumping doctors who only see dollar signs that will be more than willing to accomodate a person who wants the surgery done, as long as they have the money to do it. and so you'll end up with situations like the guy who wanted a pair of breast implants to win $100k in a bet- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Zembic. you can see how quickly such a serious issue as transgenderism and gender identity disorder corrective surgery would descend into a farce-
couple of lads in amsterdam on a stag-
"i dare you go get a pair of tits! i'll give you €500!"
"fine so, but they're coming out before the wedding!".sbsquarepants wrote: »I said they had perfectly good tits, as in healthy, ie not deformed or cancerous or anything like that. The absolute only reason to change them was cosmetic, vanity. Yes there are consultations and so on but we all know it's a money racket, you wan't tits - you can have tits, so long as you also have cash. These people aren't real doctors - they're medical trained decorators! That said, my position is why not? You want to change your body, change your body. And no, of course they didn't do it themselves, took a knife to themselves is just an expression.
the same could then be said that corrective surgery to make a person suffering from gender identity disorder feel like their body physically matches their gender identity is merely cosmetic, or vanity as you put it, physical changes at best, as the technology is not yet there to give them a uterus.sbsquarepants wrote: »I don't know what your point is, i never advocated anyone self harming. People who do that are usually in need of help. But again some people do scar themselves for cosmetic reasons - and what's wrong with that? It doesn't hurt anyone else, they aren't sick in the head, they just want to change their own bodies.
but earlier you were suggesting that a person who changes their own body is a freak, or looks like a freak, so this further advocated my reasoning that people should not be allowed to decide for themselves whether they need surgery or not to change their physical appearance.sbsquarepants wrote: »I think you misread me. I said people changing their bodies is commonplace - tit jobs, nose jobs, liposuction and so on. Changing sex is extremely rare. But it is just an extension really, some people don't feel right and if the technology is there to allow them change, what's the harm? Provided of course they aren't just nuts!
changing one's physical sex is FAR from an extension of someone shaving a few millimeters off their nose or going from a B cup to a C cup, they are effectively changing what is an integral part of their physical identity, from one sex to the complete opposite sex.
and then who is to decide they aren't just nuts as you put it, themselves? so then we are back to who gets to decide what for somebody else, and who gets to decide whether a person is mentally ill or not. this is why there are standards and procedures in place, effectively to prevent people from themselves. now i grant you some people are able to circumvent these procedures, but that shouldn't make it ok for everyone to do so.sbsquarepants wrote: »I think that people own their bodies and their lives. Generally speaking suicidal people have underlying mental health issues and they should be helped, not left to die. But if someone genuinely can not be helped, what gives you or me or anyone else the right to condemn them to a life of misery?
the majority rules SB, and if we are to move away from majority rule to individuals doing as they please, this leads to the breakdown of a society and the chaos that ensues. i do not question anyone's rights as an individual, but by that same token, an individual should not expect a society to change to suit them.sbsquarepants wrote: »To be perfectly honest i don't have an answer to the practicalities of just allowing people to die should they wish. It's always going to hurt others and that's not right. But it is also morally wrong to force another person to endure torment for possibly decades. How could it be anything else? What gives anyone the right to force suffering on another person?
It's like euthanasia, we feel it's wrong to allow dogs and cats to suffer, but humans we don't, we actually force them to. How does that make sense?
in my opinion i dont think humanity can be compared to animals (although you will find some will argue the point they are the same), i also dont think as human beings for the majority we want to see anyone suffering, which is why society has developed now to a point where we can do our best to help people who suffer from gender identity disorder.
this capability and understanding could not have been achieved had we merely chosen as some posters in here would like to do which is to disregard society and allow free reign and individuals to do what they want, as human beings are inherently and instinctively concerned with self preservation. minorities would have been wiped out long ago by the majority were it not for a structured society with rules and conventions.
by no means am i saying it's a perfect system, but without it, we would not have civilisation or the knowledge that we have today.sbsquarepants wrote: »Self medication is of course fraught with danger, i wouldn't recomend it.
So is a life of misery, i wouldn't recomend that either.
I don't have any answer for any of these problems, i'm just saying it CAN NOT BE RIGHT to tell people they MUST suffer when the technology is there to help but we just don't really like using it. That's all. I honestly don't see how any open minded person could disagree with that.
i dont have all the answers either, but i hate the term "open minded" or "closed minded" as there is so so much grey area in between that should be considered.0 -
i dont think SB its that society would prefer them to have two arms and two legs, but i see where you're coming from- if a person themselves makes the decision to change their physical sex, of their own free will, and being of sound mind, they should be free to do so?.
Why not? Is it not simply a question of who actually owns the body you're living in?
As far as i'm concerned, i own mine. Do you own yours, or are you happy to just lease it along with a set of rules set by people you'll never meet?as you pointed out later on in your own post, if it became more prevalent, you can guarantee there will be bandwagon jumping doctors who only see dollar signs that will be more than willing to accomodate a person who wants the surgery done, as long as they have the money to do it. and so you'll end up with situations like the guy who wanted a pair of breast implants to win $100k in a bet- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Zembic. you can see how quickly such a serious issue as transgenderism and gender identity disorder corrective surgery would descend into a farce-
couple of lads in amsterdam on a stag-
"i dare you go get a pair of tits! i'll give you €500!"
"fine so, but they're coming out before the wedding!"..
There will always be people who do crazy things, but so long as they are doing them to themselves, why should i be concerned?
Ah, Amsterdam!!!but earlier you were suggesting that a person who changes their own body is a freak, or looks like a freak, so this further advocated my reasoning that people should not be allowed to decide for themselves whether they need surgery or not to change their physical appearance...
No. I meant some people take it to what i would consider ridiculous extremes. Take Jordan for example - i think she looks ridiculous, like a freak in fact..... but she likes it, it doesn't harm anyone so there is no reason why she shouldn't be allowed. She shouldn't be constrained by my view of what makes a woman hot or ugly. Takes all sorts to make the world go round.changing one's physical sex is FAR from an extension of someone shaving a few millimeters off their nose or going from a B cup to a C cup, they are effectively changing what is an integral part of their physical identity, from one sex to the complete opposite sex..
It's only different in scale, like a marathon is different to a 5k road race. But when you get right down to the nitty gritty, it's all just running!and then who is to decide they aren't just nuts as you put it, themselves? so then we are back to who gets to decide what for somebody else, and who gets to decide whether a person is mentally ill or not. this is why there are standards and procedures in place, effectively to prevent people from themselves. now i grant you some people are able to circumvent these procedures, but that shouldn't make it ok for everyone to do so...
Well that's where i honestly don't know what to say. But i do tend on the side of personal freedom, rather than nanny state.the majority rules SB, and if we are to move away from majority rule to individuals doing as they please, this leads to the breakdown of a society and the chaos that ensues. i do not question anyone's rights as an individual, but by that same token, an individual should not expect a society to change to suit them....
The problem with majority rule is that often times the majority turn out to be wrong!this capability and understanding could not have been achieved had we merely chosen as some posters in here would like to do which is to disregard society and allow free reign and individuals to do what they want, as human beings are inherently and instinctively concerned with self preservation. minorities would have been wiped out long ago by the majority were it not for a structured society with rules and conventions..
So long as they are not harming others, individuals should be entirely free to do as they please. Do you not think?i dont have all the answers either, but i hate the term "open minded" or "closed minded" as there is so so much grey area in between that should be considered.
Very true!0 -
Well deirdre, you have a chance to educate people but instead you'd rather throw a strop and storm off? How exactly do you expect people to understand, if you can't be arsed explaining?0
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deirdre_dub wrote: »First of all, to introduce myself. I am a 42 year old transgender woman. I've been on hormones for a few years, I've changed as many of my legal details as the law allows, and I now live full-time as female.
I'm just going to address one trope that I see repeated here, namely the idea that I want to be a woman. I do not want to be a woman. If I had a choice, I would much rather be a male. I do not choose my gender. I do not decide my gender. I do not want hormones. I do not want surgeries. I do not want to go to the legal system and change my name. I have never wanted any of those things.
I'm sick and tired of what is a very real and very debilitating physical condition being reduced to a lifestyle choice. I no more choose to be female than someone chooses to have a broken leg.
That is all. I'm not going to contribute any more to this "debate", as it is really nothing more than a "let's spout as much rubbish about trans people as we can".
Deirdre with all due respect, jumping in like that on a 32 page thread and posting that is in my opinion nothing short of disrespectful and the same way that you consider others opinions rubbish, the fact that you are transgendered does not make your opinion any more valid than the next poster when you have no idea who they are or their experience on the topic of the thread, which incidentally started off as gender roles in society, but quickly turned to a discussion of transgender issues.
you could have contributed to the thread if you'd actually wanted, and chosen to educate people and help them understand your experience in dealing with the condition.
instead what you have done is the equivalent of farting in a crowded room and then leaving others to deal with the smell. your contribution added nothing, and to my mind at least was a complete waste of time, not only the time you took to write it, but also the time i took to read it. the only thing i garnered from your post is that you are transgendered, and without reading through the last 32 pages you see yourself as above the intellect of other posters who have contributed to the discussion.
i think the only thing i can agree with you on is that this is not a debate. boards.ie by it's very own definition will tell you that it is a discussion site, open to all points of view, and not just those who feel that their own personal experience makes them somewhat of an intellectual authority on the subject.
its that kind of dismissive attitude that písses other posters off, not the fact that you are transgendered. but you can choose to perceive that indifference whatever way you choose to, although i would rather you take it on board and take it upon yourself to keep it in mind and be more understanding and tolerant of other posters if you yourself in return would like to be treated with the same understanding and tolerance.
respect, tolerance, and understanding, is a two way street.0 -
Um - what is there to explain?! I have a debilitating physical condition that people are passing off as a lifestyle choice. What part of that do you not understand?sbsquarepants wrote: »Well deirdre, you have a chance to educate people but instead you'd rather throw a strop and storm off? How exactly do you expect people to understand, if you can't be arsed explaining?0 -
Indeed - what on earth could I posssibly know about transgender issues? How could my experience possibly be worth more than someone whose understanding of transgenderism comes from Channel 4 or the News of the World?Deirdre with all due respect, jumping in like that on a 32 page thread and posting that is in my opinion nothing short of disrespectful and the same way that you consider others opinions rubbish, the fact that you are transgendered does not make your opinion any more valid than the next poster when you have no idea who they are or their experience on the topic of the thread, which incidentally started off as gender roles in society, but quickly turned to a discussion of transgender issues.
I apologise for raining on your thread with my personal experience. I won't do it again.0 -
I've deleted my post. I'll go away now. Apologies.Deirdre with all due respect, jumping in like that on a 32 page thread and posting that is in my opinion nothing short of disrespectful ... what you have done is the equivalent of farting in a crowded room and then leaving others to deal with the smell. your contribution added nothing, and to my mind at least was a complete waste of time, not only the time you took to write it, but also the time i took to read it.0 -
The part i don't understand is why you're so pissed off. Is this your first time here or what? Some people will just take the piss, some like myself are genuinely inetersted but don't know an awful lot about the subject - but would take your experiences on board if you could be bothered sharing them, some are just plain judgemental and closed minded and so on.
Expecting people to understand something that most of us will not have had any experience of, is a bit ridiculous. Expecting people not to talk shíte on the internet is even more so.
You're under no obligation to explain anything, but if you aren't willing to then don't moan about people not knowing what it's like!0 -
If my personal experience is worth the same as everyone else's opinion then, since there are far more people with an opinion that is contrary to my personal experience than people who support my personal experience, my personal experience must be incorrect and hence pretty worthless.boards.ie by it's very own definition will tell you that it is a discussion site, open to all points of view, and not just those who feel that their own personal experience makes them somewhat of an intellectual authority on the subject.
In other words, I don't actually have a debilitating physical condition - I am a severely mentally ill person who should spend my life under psychiatric supervision. Why? Because that is what most people believe, and hence since the majority is by definition always right, my personal experience of my gender is by definition wrong.
Since I am so severely mentally ill, I really should not be contributing to this debate. I should go away and let you all decide my fate.
I apologise for being so bold for standing up for my experience, for my truth. How on earth can I possibly educate you?! It is you - the majority - who need to educate me. It is you who decide the meaning of my life and who decide what my experience is.0 -
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No - far from it.sbsquarepants wrote: »The part i don't understand is why you're so pissed off. Is this your first time here or what?
I thought I had explained why I'm pissed off. I'm pissed off that there is this constant trope which reduces my debilitating condition to a lifestyle choice. I'm also pissed off that I'm being told that other's opinions of my experiences is worth the same as my experience.
Once again, what part of "debilitating condition that is reduced to a lifestyle choice" do you not understand?Expecting people to understand something that most of us will not have had any experience of, is a bit ridiculous.0 -
deirdre_dub wrote: »No - far from it.
I thought I had explained why I'm pissed off. I'm pissed off that there is this constant trope which reduces my debilitating condition to a lifestyle choice. I'm also pissed off that I'm being told that other's opinions of my experiences is worth the same as my experience.
Once again, what part of "debilitating condition that is reduced to a lifestyle choice" do you not understand?
Well then if i'm one of the ones who made you feel bad, i'm sorry, i honestly didn't mean to! I'm just thinking out loud really!
Edit: - But that being said you do seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder.0 -
deirdre_dub wrote: »That is all. I'm not going to contribute any more to this "debate", as it is really nothing more than a "let's spout as much rubbish about trans people as we can".deirdre_dub wrote: »Um - what is there to explain?! I have a debilitating physical condition that people are passing off as a lifestyle choice. What part of that do you not understand?
back already? and with another stellar contribution. deirdre lose the attitude, honestly, nobody attacked you personally, we were all having a good discussion here with some great information being put forward (had you read through the thread you would have seen this!), and yes, there were some ass-hat posts, but the majority of the thread was respectful and helpful and lots of different points of views were exchanged.
then you wade in with your pompous "allow me to introduce myself... i, i, i", etc. i'll tell you straight up now i care no more about you than i do about any of the other posters in here. im only interested in reading your point of view with regard to the subject at hand, not about your inflated opinion of yourself.deirdre_dub wrote: »Indeed - what on earth could I posssibly know about transgender issues? How could my experience possibly be worth more than someone whose understanding of transgenderism comes from Channel 4 or the News of the World?
how do you know anything of where my understanding of transgenderism comes from? i wouldnt like to come to you for support if i felt i was transgendered-
"you know nothing"
"yes, that's why i would like to talk to you"
"you couldnt possibly understand what it is to be transgengered"
"but..."
"no!"
"ok then"
support and understanding eh? not a whole lot of it being displayed on your part either! it doesnt seem to have occurred to you at all that if this thread shows anything, it's that at least people are willing to listen and open and trying to understand what it is to be transgendered.
if you were anything as intelligent as you purport to be, you would've seen this as a golden opportunity starting point from which to build on. but no, instead you chose to use it to get up on your pedestal and berate the mere plebs.
instead of imparting any actual experience in your first post, you came off as purely self centered and a faux intellectual snob with all your pomp and circumstance. again i am not personally attacking you Deirdre, but i am attacking the perceived attitude in your post, which lets be honest was rather confrontational and inflammatory for somebody who just thought she could walk in on a 32 page thread and dismiss all the other contributors without even reading the thread, and then to add nothing to the discussion after her belittling rant?deirdre_dub wrote: »I apologise for raining on your thread with my personal experience. I won't do it again.
that's the point im making Deirdre, you didnt contribute anything! not even personal experience!
i'd actually be very grateful though if you didnt introduce that attitude to this thread again. if you're not willing to contribute to the discussion, then you're about as useful to the discussion as an ash tray on a motorbilke.
if you do decide to come back and contribute to the thread Deirdre, then please this time try to keep in mind that just because people enjoy some of the lighter side of life in AH, it doesn't under any circumstances give you or anyone else the right to dismiss them as below your superior intellect. you are not forced to post here either, and seeing as there was no point to your first post in this thread, how about you try and make the next one an actual good contribution to the thread?0 -
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I don't have a point of view - I only have experience. Or, rather, it isn't possible for me to seperate my point of view from my experience.i'll tell you straight up now i care no more about you than i do about any of the other posters in here. im only interested in reading your point of view with regard to the subject at hand, not about your inflated opinion of yourself.
So you are trans yourself? From your previous post, I understand that you see your gender as a choice. What stage of transition are you at?how do you know anything of where my understanding of transgenderism comes from? i wouldnt like to come to you for support if i felt i was transgendered-
"you know nothing"
"yes, that's why i would like to talk to you"
"you couldnt possibly understand what it is to be transgengered"
"but..."
"no!"
"ok then"
Um - I did. I contributed that my personal experience is at odds with yours in that I do not see my gender as a choice. Or did you miss that?that's the point im making Deirdre, you didnt contribute anything! not even personal experience!0 -
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deirdre_dub wrote: »Indeed - what on earth could I posssibly know about transgender issues? How could my experience possibly be worth more than someone whose understanding of transgenderism comes from Channel 4 or the News of the World?
I apologise for raining on your thread with my personal experience. I won't do it again.deirdre_dub wrote: »I've deleted my post. I'll go away now. Apologies.deirdre_dub wrote: »If my personal experience is worth the same as everyone else's opinion then, since there are far more people with an opinion that is contrary to my personal experience than people who support my personal experience, my personal experience must be incorrect and hence pretty worthless.
In other words, I don't actually have a debilitating physical condition - I am a severely mentally ill person who should spend my life under psychiatric supervision. Why? Because that is what most people believe, and hence since the majority is by definition always right, my personal experience of my gender is by definition wrong.
Since I am so severely mentally ill, I really should not be contributing to this debate. I should go away and let you all decide my fate.
I apologise for being so bold for standing up for my experience, for my truth. How on earth can I possibly educate you?! It is you - the majority - who need to educate me. It is you who decide the meaning of my life and who decide what my experience is.
more passive aggressive facetious nonsense! Deirdre you know very well that you could contribute and make a positive impact in this thread and stop playing the victim complex. you're around long enough for me to know that you can well fight your corner when you want to! i've seen you in action and you are quite the formidable and admirable force, when you want to be! your posts so far though in this thread have fallen well below your usual standard and you now purport to be some sort of an apologist victim as if you feel you are being picked on.
again Deirdre, i implore you to stop this nonsense and contribute to the discussion in a constructive and informative manner, and who knows, this might become an AH resource thread for transgender issues, which would be an amazing coup if it were to happen.0 -
deirdre_dub wrote: »So you are trans yourself? From your previous post, I understand that you see your gender as a choice. What stage of transition are you at?
Um - I did. I contributed that my personal experience is at odds with yours in that I do not see my gender as a choice. Or did you miss that?
oh look, Deirdre thinking she's being extra clever. fair enough Deirdre, think what you want, and be as much a smart ass as you want, i'll just choose from this point on not to respond to you as i think where you're going with this is to draw out a silly post-picking back and forth argument until a Mod decides enough is enough and locks the thread.
me personally i would like to see that doesnt happen. we have some great support threads in AH and i for one would not like to see this thread spoiled by a handful of posters who rarely ever post or contribute anything else to AH.0 -
What on EARTH do you want from me?!more passive aggressive facetious nonsense! Deirdre you know very well that you could contribute and make a positive impact in this thread and stop playing the victim complex. you're around long enough for me to know that you can well fight your corner when you want to! i've seen you in action and you are quite the formidable and admirable force, when you want to be! your posts so far though in this thread have fallen well below your usual standard and you now purport to be some sort of an apologist victim as if you feel you are being picked on.
again Deirdre, i implore you to stop this nonsense and contribute to the discussion in a constructive and informative manner, and who knows, this might become an AH resource thread for transgender issues, which would be an amazing coup if it were to happen.
You say that you want personal experience. I give it, but you are still jumping down my throat.
You talk about an attitude - as far as I can make out, the attitude you have an issue with is the attitude that the opinions of someone from Nigeria on being Nigerian are worth far more than the opinions of anyone else. If that is the case - if the rest of the world determines what being Nigerian is about more than the Nigerians themselves - then, frankly, that is a dangerous world that I do not want to live in, as it means that you and I have pretty much no input on what it means to be Irish.
Here's the deal. I'm transgender. I'm not going to apologise for that. As for being late to this thread - it's only recently that this thread has come to my attention. I come on here, and I see the "lifestyle choice" trope, which is deeply hurtful. I call you all out on it, and then prepare to leave the thread, but I see that I'm being jumped on. I make no apologies for being hurt by that trope. (Did you see that? It was another example of personal experience - namely the personal experience of being hurt by that trope. Now - what are you going to do - jump down my throat for yet another example of personal experience, and then jump down my throat for not giving enough personal experience? Or are you only looking for personal experience of mine which doesn't call you out on anything?).0 -
I call you out on being hurt by something, and then you start calling me a smart ass, and then talk about how supportive AH can be. :rolleyes:oh look, Deirdre thinking she's being extra clever. fair enough Deirdre, think what you want, and be as much a smart ass as you want ... we have some great support threads in AH0 -
deirdre_dub wrote: »I call you out on being hurt by something, and then you start calling me a smart ass, and then talk about how supportive AH can be. :rolleyes:
deirdre not to my knowledge did i post anything in this thread that you could have construed as hurtful, and not once did i ever suggest that being transgendered was a lifestyle choice.
your first post in this thread contained an unnecessarily aggressive and dismissive tone that was bound to get people's backs up. you may be transgendered, but in my mind at least that is not all that you are as a whole person. your personality is also part of who you are, and that to my knowledge has nothing to do with your gender.
i said you were being a smart ass because your passive aggressive posts were only serving to derail the thread and focus all the attention on you, which i would be glad to move away from and take this to a discussion via PM so that we would not derail the thread any further.
AH CAN be supportive, you only have to look at the "lets all laugh at depression" thread to see that. and it can be a great resource for information and support, even the fact that one of the AH mods has links to suicide rescources in their signature should be enough to show you that.
now i would respectfully suggest that we move past this nit-picking and get this thread back on track so that it is not closed due to going off topic. it's far enough off topic as it is and the mods have been gracious enough to leave it open for discussion.0 -
deirdre not to my knowledge did i post anything in this thread that you could have construed as hurtful, and not once did i ever suggest that being transgendered was a lifestyle choice.
your first post in this thread contained an unnecessarily aggressive and dismissive tone that was bound to get people's backs up. you may be transgendered, but in my mind at least that is not all that you are as a whole person. your personality is also part of who you are, and that to my knowledge has nothing to do with your gender.
i said you were being a smart ass because your passive aggressive posts were only serving to derail the thread and focus all the attention on you, which i would be glad to move away from and take this to a discussion via PM so that we would not derail the thread any further.
AH CAN be supportive, you only have to look at the "lets all laugh at depression" thread to see that. and it can be a great resource for information and support, even the fact that one of the AH mods has links to suicide rescources in their signature should be enough to show you that.
now i would respectfully suggest that we move past this nit-picking and get this thread back on track so that it is not closed due to going off topic. it's far enough off topic as it is and the mods have been gracious enough to leave it open for discussion.
The fact that you've posted a lot in this thread, generally disagreeing to some extent with the transgender posters, could be seen as passive-aggressive, especially considering that you stated in the previous thread on transgender issues (in which you posted quite a bit) that transgender issues weren't high on your list of priorities.
I'm not saying you are being passive-aggressive, just that I can see how your posts would come across that way, and I do find it strange that you post so often in threads on transgender issues when you claim to have little interest in the subject.0 -
The King of Moo wrote: »The fact that you've posted a lot in this thread, generally disagreeing to some extent with the transgender posters, could be seen as passive-aggressive, especially considering that you stated in the previous thread on transgender issues (in which you posted quite a bit) that transgender issues weren't high on your list of priorities.
I'm not saying you are being passive-aggressive, just that I can see how your posts would come across that way, and I do find it strange that you post so often in threads on transgender issues when you claim to have little interest in the subject.
why would you find it strange Moo? i post on a hell of a lot more than just transgender issues you know, a quick "find other posts" would've told you that.
posting on boards is not very high on my list of priorities either for that matter. if we were all to take the attitude that we have no business posting in a thread on transgender issues because other posters assume we have no experience of same, then this thread, and for that matter the last one, would have quickly gone nowhere.
we'll go with the assumption that i have no experience of what it is to be transgendered then, does that mean that anybody who has no experience of the issue cannot discuss their thoughts on it?
again that would make for a very limited discussion and for that matter an even more limited thread, and most of the posters like Links, Deirdre and ITMA would've had no platform to educate and inform people on what it is to be transgengered.
EDIT: just for the record, i disagree too with lots of people, whether they be transgendered or not is purely irrelevant to their personality and their attitude as a person and as a poster. i make no exceptions for posters that identify as transgendered because to me at least, i see all posters equally, and so while ones experience may lend weight to their opinion, it does not excuse them from showing tolerance for other posters opinions, whether they disagree with them or not.
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That's pretty impressive tbh.
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