You're all Transgender hens until Proven Otherwise!!

L.Jenkins

Millicent wrote: »

Are you drunk right now?

Maybe he's an inebriated monkey

drunkmonkey

Millicent wrote: »

You think sexuality has to do with whether or not a boy pushes a pram in his youth or a girl plays on a go-cart?

It's a small part of the whole swedish thing but the picture shows the way there heading.

Hen is what I think is wrong. You can't just change the male and female role in society with a piece of legislation. I don't think it's fair on children.

Goodshape

I don't think they're going to be buying every boy a pram or every girl a race-car, ffs.

They're just illustrating that it's not such a bad thing if a boy does want a pram. Which it shouldn't be.

Most probably won't. The world will spin ever onward.

Millicent

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's a small part of the whole swedish thing but the picture shows the way there heading.

Hen is what I think is wrong. You can't just change the male and female role in society with a piece of legislation. I don't think it's fair on children.

Why? Serious question. Why do you think it's so wrong? Do you really think the whole of society will come crashing down around us if children are able to just be whoever they feel comfortable being?

FWIW, Sweden has a pretty stellar gender equality record and a very decent quality of life. Their society doesn't seem to be crumbling.

Mardy Bum

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's a small part of the whole swedish thing but the picture shows the way there heading.

Hen is what I think is wrong. You can't just change the male and female role in society with a piece of legislation. I don't think it's fair on children.

What do you make of this then. Matriarchy :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r9nHrGten8

L.Jenkins

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Hen is what I think is wrong. You can't just change the male and female role in society with a piece of legislation. I don't think it's fair on children.

What I think is unfair is forcing a gender role on a child from the moment they pop out. I feel a child has a right to make up their own mind, make mistakes and learn. Being told your role in life is a load of bullshít. In native American culture, a third gender was and still is in some cases reveared.

jill_valentine

I think everybody else has all the other ridiculousness of this covered, but for the record Transgender =/= Homosexual.

drunkmonkey

Millicent wrote: »

Why? Serious question. Why do you think it's so wrong? Do you really think the whole of society will come crashing down around us if children are able to just be whoever they feel comfortable being?

FWIW, Sweden has a pretty stellar gender equality record and a very decent quality of life. Their society doesn't seem to be crumbling.

I'm just worried that children will grown up thinking the may not be the sex there born a lot more than they are now. I'm not talking about liking the same sex i'm talking about changing your sex altogether.
Medical science can now change gender if someone is not happy with the way they are born. I have a slight problem with that because it has never been possible before and now that it's possible it should be acceptable that we are born the wrong sex.
I duuno I just can see it creating more problems than it solves in the long run. If science wasn't a factor I would see no problem at all.

Goodshape

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm just worried that children will grown up thinking the may not be the sex there born a lot more than they are now.

Seriously though, that's got nothing at all to do with playing with prams.

L.Jenkins

So you have an issue with the idea that someone may potentially come to terms with their gender identity sooner rather than later. It's this repression of out of the box thinking that has slowed society in it's attempt to become more accepting of ones diversity and expression through gender and sexuality.

drunkmonkey

Mardy Bum wrote: »

What do you make of this then. Matriarchy :eek:

Great I like it but I don't see them taking hormone replacement pills and getting there dicks chopped off on the NHS, big big difference.

Millicent

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm just worried that children will grown up thinking the may not be the sex there born a lot more than they are now. I'm not talking about liking the same sex i'm talking about changing your sex altogether.
Medical science can now change gender if someone is not happy with the way they are born. I have a slight problem with that because it has never been possible before and now that it's possible it should be acceptable that we are born the wrong sex.
I duuno I just can see it creating more problems than it solves in the long run. If science wasn't a factor I would see no problem at all.

But even science can't pin down gender. There are massive arguments ongoing for years on whether it's down to nature or nurture, not to mention physiological and hormonal factors and brain chemistry. It's not as simple as having XX or XY chromosomes.

What problems logically can you see it creating? Children learn of their sex from about the ages of 3, 4 or 5, depending on the child. They understand that their genitalia differs from the opposite sex. For many, gender is tied with that knowledge of their genitalia.

However, all human beings, no matter how they deny it, are comprised of a blend of "masculine" and "feminine" attributes. What is wrong with giving a child the chance to explore that when they are developing their identity? Why force them to hide who they truly are because "boys shouldn't play with dolls" or "girls should wear pink"? Let them decide who they want to be. The world is not going to be worse for some boys deciding they'd rather be a homemaker or a girl deciding she wants to be a builder.

jill_valentine

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm just worried that children will grown up thinking the may not be the sex there born a lot more than they are now. I'm not talking about liking the same sex i'm talking about changing your sex altogether.
Medical science can now change gender if someone is not happy with the way they are born. I have a slight problem with that because it has never been possible before and now that it's possible it should be acceptable that we are born the wrong sex.
I duuno I just can see it creating more problems than it solves in the long run. If science wasn't a factor I would see no problem at all.

Nature used to let people die of appendicitis and poor dental health until we figured out how to defy it. The fact that something requires the application of human science isn't a good enough reason, in itself, to invalidate something.

guitarzero

Well, it's pretty clear, in plain terms, as we used to say way back in the day, that resistance is futile. I prefer to be called by my pps number thank you very much.

Millicent

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Great I like it but I don't see them taking hormone replacement pills and getting there dicks chopped off on the NHS, big big difference.

We don't have the NHS... And honestly, it seems like maybe you're just a bit freaked out by transgendered people rather than that you have any coherent, logical objections to it outside of "ick".

L.Jenkins

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Great I like it but I don't see them taking hormone replacement pills and getting there dicks chopped off on the NHS, big big difference.

But what is you're issue with gender change? It will not be the downfall of society.

Babybuff

here op, probably better if you understood what the term gender actually means before you go expounding your theories about the downfall of society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

drunkmonkey

Millicent wrote: »

We don't have the NHS... And honestly, it seems like maybe you're just a bit freaked out by transgendered people rather than that you have any coherent, logical objections to it outside of "ick".

Well the HSE then. Your not getting me. If I have a willy and I grow up thinking well hold on I prefer the female hen role I should be able to play that role. That's fine be the mammy, the carer, the nurturer if that's what you want and that's what happens in the video you linked to.

I'm not going to get into a debate about transgender but I do think a lot of it wouldn't be happening without the internet. There are people i'm not saying all but some people have serious mental health issues that are not addressing them in the society they live and are 100% dependent on online support.

It's too easy get the blade and the magic beans these days without really addressing the underlying issues. I've seen it here on boards and it worries me as these people have real world problems that aren't being diagnosed properly.

If I start a thread saying I think i'm transgender, I will get support here to take it to the next step. That thought is frightening.

Edit:
By transgender I mean genitial mutiliation to look like the opposite sex.

Babybuff

oh for the love of god.

Monkey, 100 years ago women were not permitted to wear trousers. It wasn't acceptable for them to cut their hair short, educate themselves or be thought of as anything less than inferior to the male in society. Joan of arc was burned at the stake for dressing like a man. Today women pretty much cross dress all the time. They wear jeans, they cut their hair short, they go to college and acquire positions of responsibility and respect.

The reason why men can't do this is because it's considered socially unacceptable to want to even resemble a woman. and if they do it means they're somehow mentally ill.

Millicent

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Well the HSE then. Your not getting me. If I have a willy and I grow up thinking well hold on I prefer the female hen role I should be able to play that role. That's fine be the mammy, the carer, the nurturer if that's what you want and that's what happens in the video you linked to.

I didn't link to a video.

So you are okay with boys taking on traditionally feminine roles and vice versa then, is what you're saying?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm not going to get into a debate about transgender but I do think a lot of it wouldn't be happening without the internet. There are people i'm not saying all but some people have serious mental health issues that are not addressing them in the society they live and are 100% dependent on online support.

But it's your thread.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's too easy get the blade and the magic beans these days without really addressing the underlying issues.

It's really not. No offence but you have no idea what you're talking about.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I've seen it here on boards and it worries me as these people have real world problems that aren't being diagnosed properly.

What have you seen exactly on Boars?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If I start a thread saying I think i'm transgender, I will get support here to take it to the next step. That thought is frightening.

That's not frightening. That's supportive. If you are sure in yourself that's what you want to do, what's wrong with being supported? Just as an FYI, gender change is a long and protracted process complete with counselling, psychological assessment, numerous doctors' visits, and a long period of "trying on" the role before the change is made. There is ample opportunity to back out at any time. So where's the issue once those safeguards are in place? And what has that got to do with children's toys?

Links234

You've really no clue about what you're talking about drunk monkey. No clue at all.

drunkmonkey

I'm not talking about Dame Edna, i'm talking about trying to physically change your sexual organs with the help of a surgeon. Nothing wrong with playing dress up.

L.Jenkins

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Well the HSE then. Your not getting me. If I have a willy and I grow up thinking well hold on I prefer the female hen role I should be able to play that role. That's fine be the mammy, the carer, the nurturer if that's what you want and that's what happens in the video you linked to.

And you're right. Everyone should have the right to choose their role in life based on how they idea.

I'm not going to get into a debate about transgender but I do think a lot of it wouldn't be happening without the internet. There are people i'm not saying all but some people have serious mental health issues that are not addressing them in the society they live and are 100% dependent on online support.

If it wasn't for the internet, it might be years before someone comes to terms with their gender identity. Transsexuality is not a mental health issue and transition has been found to alleviate alot of ones mental health issues associated with gender identity issues.

It's too easy get the blade and the magic beans these days without really addressing the underlying issues. I've seen it here on boards and it worries me as these people have real world problems that aren't being diagnosed properly.

Really do you think. Have you been following the LGBT forum so closely that you can make that deduction, because I feel otherwise. It's taken me 18 months of self evaluation, Counselling, GP visits, Psychiatry appointments and a chat with an Endocrinologist before I was given hormones.

If I start a thread saying I think i'm transgender, I will get support here to take it to the next step. That thought is frightening.

You would receive the relavent support only where needed and when asked for.

Johro

Let's break for a tune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v--IqqusnNQ

drunkmonkey

Millicent wrote: »

That's not frightening. That's supportive./QUOTE]

That's where we differ. I see it as encouragement by unqualified individuals.

Goodshape

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There are people i'm not saying all but some people have serious mental health issues that are not addressing them in the society they live and are 100% dependent on online support.

Perhaps the issues aren't being addressed properly due to the stigma that's attached to "breaking" those gender norms?

Like, say, the thought of a boy playing with a pram. ****ing weird, right? We shouldn't ever show kids that that's an OK thing to do. Until they start having these "problems" themselves we should make sure they know what is right and what is wrong for their gender, yeah?

Then when the problems do surface the young adult will know how dreadfully wrong it is and.... well, I don't actually see how that's preferable.

Millicent

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That's where we differ. I see it as encouragement by unqualified individuals.

I think people in the same position as another poster are more qualified to give encouragement or opinion than you are, to be fair.

What about the rest of my post?

drunkmonkey

Goodshape wrote: »

Like, say, the thought of a boy playing with a pram. ****ing weird, right?

No i'm sure plenty of lads have played with prams, probably did myself back in the day.
There actively marketing it now to children. That's a little different.

I can see Tubridy next christmas, this years hottest boys toy is a pink pram and a my baby pisses itself doll.

Sorry but i'm just not seeing it as the way forward for society.

Transgender was the wrong word to use in the title, it's drifted this off course. I still can't think of the word to describe these children who will grow up without having a role. Monogender if it exists.

Babybuff

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Transgender was the wrong word to use in the title, it's drifted this off course. I still can't think of the word to describe these children who will grow up without having a role. Monogender if it exists.

human?

Millicent

drunkmonkey wrote: »

No i'm sure plenty of lads have played with prams, probably did myself back in the day.
There actively marketing it now to children. That's a little different.

I can see Tubridy next christmas, this years hottest boys toy is a pink pram and a my baby pisses itself doll.

Sorry but i'm just not seeing it as the way forward for society.

Transgender was the wrong word to use in the title, it's drifted this off course. I still can't think of the word to describe these children who will grow up without having a role. Monogender if it exists.

It's not exactly a backwards step.

What the hell is the problem with a child getting the toy it wants, not the toy it's "supposed" to have? They're kids. Let them play with whatever they want. Won't do them any harm.

drunkmonkey

Babybuff wrote: »

human?

Nope. Nature would crate the male/female role all by itself if we didn't try to class it.

Transgender was the wrong word the more I think about it, wish I had a word for it.

Johro

Weird. I never thought of my maleness as a 'role'.

Millicent

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Nope. Nature would crate the male/female role all by itself if we didn't try to class it.

Transgender was the wrong word the more I think about it, wish I had a word for it.

Again, you have completely ignored my point about the many, many arguments surrounding the creation of and perpetration of gender. Gender is not all down to nature, but is a complex mix of many different factors.

4zn76tysfajdxp

"It's about money because as long as they can fool us into believing boys and girls are fundamentally different, they can keep selling us twice as much."

That doesn't make any sense to me. Surely if a kid is restricted by gender stereotypes then they're likely to buy less of the toys on offer. Right?

drunkmonkey

Would love to chat it out but caught for time Millicent. Have to go.

L.Jenkins

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Nope. Nature would crate the male/female role all by itself if we didn't try to class it.

Transgender was the wrong word the more I think about it, wish I had a word for it.

Most peoples idea of roles are constructed. It's sad that gender has to be pigeon holed into a set of rules and classifications, because it causes a sense of discomfort for some people.

Babybuff

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Nope. Nature would crate the male/female role all by itself if we didn't try to class it.

Transgender was the wrong word the more I think about it, wish I had a word for it.

I think the word you're thinking of is androgynous.
It's what most children are until they reach an age where they begin acting out the gender "roles" that they have learned (or been burdened with) from society.

Johro

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Nope. Nature would crate the male/female role all by itself if we didn't try to class it.

Transgender was the wrong word the more I think about it, wish I had a word for it.

You're probably thinking 'androgynous'.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/androgynous+

Millicent

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Would love to chat it out but caught for time Millicent. Have to go.

No worries. I'll look for your response tomorrow.

Wetai

Bit daft calling them 'hens', which is an inherently female word, if the point they're trying to get across is that children shouldn't automatically be labelled by gender (roles) or whatever. It should be an androgynous word, if that's the point they're trying to get across. Or else it screams feminism to me (automatically going for the female side and all that).

L.Jenkins

hens is an androgynus word in Swedish.

Jhcx

DaJaVu didn't this come up ages ago. i thought it died out and not more was said about it. Although the page says XX march 2012. But this was on Joe i could have sworn.

Yadi yada. genders this genders that. big deal. Although you wont see me pushing a buggy. Unless im tired and want to lean on it. My excuse women have better grip on a buggy.

biko

In this article from a Swedish daily the word "hen" is used to gender neutralise the person.

**** is ****ed up.

Han - him
Hon - her
Hen - gender neutral word.

fasttalkerchat

biko wrote: »

In this article from a Swedish daily the word "hen" is used to gender neutralise the person.

**** is ****ed up.

Han - him
Hon - her
Hen - gender neutral word.

Thanks for that! I assumed they were using the sweedish word for the bird.

Mr Benevolent

Not sure what the OP is on about. A girl on a buggy wouldn't phase me particularly. A boy pushing a pram is going to get laughed at. A boy wearing a Spiderman outfit while wheeling a pram will be ostracized and beaten up. Proper order too.

WindSock

Braelynn Helpful Infantry wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense to me. Surely if a kid is restricted by gender stereotypes then they're likely to buy less of the toys on offer. Right?

I guess it's easier to market products aimed specifically at one or the other. Doll houses and Bacardi Breezers for the girls, monster trucks and Wkd for the boys.

The King of Moo

I'm still a little unclear: is the picture of the kid dressed as Spider-man pushing a pram irrelevant? Because it's awesome .

If "hen" in Swedish is a feminine word like it is in English then obviously it's a poor choice to describe all kiddywinks.

But if it's gender-neutral then I don't see what the problem is. It doesn't seem too different from calling kids "kids."

And I don't see how it's going to destroy the genders. It'll just avoid pressuring kids into conforming to gender stereotypes and allow them to come to terms with their identities themselves. And most of them would probably identify broadly with one gender and be straight so things probably wouldn't be very different.
The Swedish seem a pretty on-the-ball bunch: it doesn't seem to have affected them.

WindSock

I dislike the term 'kids' being used for my children. It confuses them so much that I think they are going to turn into goats when they are older. They are already eating my clothes off the washing line. I'm calling Joe....

antodeco

For people on fancy smartphones here's the image that doesn't load on the mobile site

http://www.thelocal.se/articleImages/39988.jpg

biko

It's not only "hen". Now they've introduced Dum and Mad (instead of Mum and Dad, my translation btw) in a new kid's book called "Kiwi and the monster dog".

Btw, if anyone is interested in gender and equality etc read the book "Egalia's Daughters"