You're all Transgender hens until Proven Otherwise!!

drunkmonkey

The King of Moo wrote: »

Jesus.

People using stupid, deliberately offensive loaded terms like "mutilation" to describe operations and courses of hormone treatment.
If you were getting your appendix removed tomorrow, would you say "I'm going to be mutilated tomorrow?"
No you wouldn't, because that would be ****ing stupid.

Jesus is right

Your comparing to use a nicer expression sex reassignment surgery to getting your appendix out.
Sorry but I think you'd be ****ing stupid to put a knife to yourself regardless of how you feel on the inside.

wonderfulname

The King of Moo - just, bravo, I wish I could be so articulate in anger, it needed to be said.

Meesared

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Jesus is right

Your comparing to use a nicer expression sex reassignment surgery to getting your appendix out.
Sorry but I think you'd be ****ing stupid to put a knife to yourself regardless of how you feel on the inside.

Calling it mutilation is more stupid IMO

awec

The King of Moo wrote: »

Jesus.

I often wonder why so many people have closed their accounts lately or why people get themselves banned for reacting angrily to other users.
This thread demonstrates exactly why.

Swedish schools use a gender-neutral term to talk to children, and people are up in arms about boys being forced into playing with "girls' toys," despite this having nothing to do with the case, and not being something that really ever happens at all.

People passing off simple prejudice as well-thought out opinions, and dismissing any evidence which shows them that their opinions are based on lies and misconceptions, because it's their opinion and they're entitled to it and you're just trying to shut them up with your liberal fascist agenda-based facts!

People using stupid, deliberately offensive loaded terms like "mutilation" to describe operations and courses of hormone treatment.
If you were getting your appendix removed tomorrow, would you say "I'm going to be mutilated tomorrow?"
No you wouldn't, because that would be ****ing stupid.
Then deliberately winding up and insulting transgender people who are arguing with you and countering your stupid "arguments" with little things like facts, experience and intelligence.

It really is impossible to discuss any issues with relation to gender and sexuality here because some people get freaked out that some other people like to do other things than what they like to do, and have different identities from their own ones.
And they have to tell us very loudly and stupidly how other people's lives which don't affect them at all are just plain wrong, and they don't need facts to back that up, because they're just right, and it's their opinion anyway.
Well it might be your opinion but that doesn't mean that it's not a ****ing stupid opinion.

Reading through this thread has been incredibly depressing. Initially, I'd earmarked certain posts to reply to and point out mistakes and fallacies if no-one else had done so, but very soon there were just too many.
I try to be positive about humanity. I try to think about all the magnificent and beautiful things we've achieved and created, and how much capacity for greatness we have.
But then I read threads like this and think that most people are simply and irredeemably stupid and intolerant of people different from them, even if they don't affect them in the slightest.

You can quote this post to disagree if you want but don't hold your breath for a reply: I don't know if I'm going to bother looking at this thread again.

And well done to all the intelligent, reasonable posters, especially the ones who have to put up with insults and gross misconceptions about themselves.

I think I might change my signature: I'm not sure it applies to most people.

I'm going to be honest and say that part of the reason it's hard to discuss it here is because of posts like this.

It doesn't take people long to jump on the "omg you're just intolerant" bandwagon, and those people are no better than the ones out to do nothing but wind up and annoy transgender people.

So melodramatic. "Oh I don't know if I'll bother reading again", "oh the humanity". Jesus wept. :rolleyes:

drunkmonkey

Meesared wrote: »

Calling it mutilation is more stupid IMO

It is mutilation. Call it what you want.

wonderfulname

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It is mutilation. Call it what you want.

You can call it mutilation provided you deem all surgical intervention mutilation, otherwise stick to surgery.

Meesared

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It is mutilation. Call it what you want.

Its not mutilation, you can call it that if you like, but it is not mutilation

Links234

Here's something to consider.

Gynecomastia in males is relatively common, it's when breast tissue develops because of a hormone imbalance or it can be caused by other issues, and for the guys who suffer with the condition, it can be absolute hell. I've personally known a few guys who've had surgery to remove their breast tissue; a double masectomy. They're obviously very happy with the results and the difference it's made to their self confidence and self esteem has been huge. Nobody made any judgements about their surgery either, it was something that was quite obviously causing them a great deal of emotional distress, so everyone was quite understanding and supportive.

Yet for trans men who want to have their breasts removed, we get all kinds of judgement calls, and certainly no end of people who speak up about them "mutilating themselves" and removing perfectly healthy breasts. The double standard is really shocking in how society as a whole can empathise with one group of men, yet be cruelly judgemental and scathing to another group of men, despite them both having the same issue.

Zillah

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Sorry but I think you'd be ****ing stupid to put a knife to yourself regardless of how you feel on the inside.

Are you aware that a huge percentage of transgender people end up suicidal without transitioning? There is no cure or treatment other than sex reassignment, which is considered a permanent and effective solution.

What we have here is a serious lack of empathy. I'm going to assume you're a man drunkmonkey. Try, for a moment, to imagine that you, with the exact same personality, likes/dislikes etc, woke up tomorrow inside the body of a woman. Everyone treats you like woman, you are expected to do and like girly things and live every day of your life pretending that you're not a man on the inside. If you tell anyone how you feel, that you'd rather watch the football than go shopping with the girls, that you'd rather have a pint than white wine, most people will think you're weird, disgusting or mentally defective. A large number of people will actively hate you and will aggressively tell you you are wrong and just live like a woman.

And yes I'm indulging in stereotypes re; football and white wine, for the sake of brevity.

Final thought: Surgery is the final and usually least important step. Hormone replacement therapy does quite a great deal in terms of helping a transgendered person get a body that suits them better, and actually living their lifestyle as the right sex is the most important thing.

I know this is after hours and all, sorry about the facts and understanding.

(EDIT: Oh hi links, fancy seeing you around here.)

The King of Moo

awec wrote: »

I'm going to be honest and say that part of the reason it's hard to discuss it here is because of posts like this.

It doesn't take people long to jump on the "omg you're just intolerant" bandwagon, and those people are no better than the ones out to do nothing but wind up and annoy transgender people.

So melodramatic. "Oh I don't know if I'll bother reading again", "oh the humanity". Jesus wept. :rolleyes:

I'm always willing, too willing perhaps, to argue with people with the most extreme views and who appear to be wholly intolerant and unwilling to listen to other points of view. Often I'll find myself arguing with people whose views are diametrically opposed to mine when everyone else has stopped bothering or has just ignored the user.
I, quite naively perhaps, genuinely want to convince these people and help them see their fallacies and misconceptions.

But lately I've become weary, as some people just refuse to listen to reason and facts (I'm not including yourself: you made some reasonable comments on the previous thread about the transgender Miss Universe contestant) and confuse naked prejudice with universal facts and common sense.
I think there might simply be no point arguing with such people.
It's a depressing thought that some people will always be ignorant and prejudiced about things that don't affect them or anyone else, and hopefully that's not really the case.
I like to think that we all have the potential to be compassionate people capable of critical thought, and I'm actually in a good mood today, but I think some people just can't be helped and it might be pointless arguing with them when they don't bother to do any research, take on board others' perspectives or exercise critical thought.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

"The use of the rolleyes smiley weakens any argument." - me

Links234

Zillah wrote: »

(EDIT: Oh hi links, fancy seeing you around here.)

Hi Zillah

I know loike, isn't it totally random to see me here :pac:

Tym

Wow, this is turning into the sexist version of The Multicultural Ireland Thread.:P

I think the more the distinctions between gender are broken down the betterm but, admittedly, I'm a firm believer that all the percieved differences between females and males are created by our society. Sure, there's still a collasal amount of almost indoctrination going on. How many TV shows depict a woman finding happiness when she gets married? And, in many romantic movies, that's the end of her story. Apparently, once a woman in our society finds a man, that's the end of the story, ultimiamte happiness forever, and ever, ever. Which is obviously ridiculous.

Another thing, how many times is female on male domestic abuse potrayed as being humourus in telivision, films or ads? And why is it hilarious? Is that implying that since women are so much weaker than men that they couldn't possibly hurt a man. And strangely enough the way it is potrayed is almost implying that the man isn't a proper man, or an object of hilarity, as his wife hits him. Does anybody else find that disturbing? Maybe I am sexist, but I don't think the average women could put me into the hospital, but isn't that propagating a very dangerous myth? Women can be pedophiles, emotional abusers and child abusers as well.

And another thng, how many people have heard, males and females, commenting that they wouldn't want X girl to become a female boxer. Why, becuase they wouldn't look pretty? Or you don't want to see them get hurt, but people are a lot more casual abotu letting men box. I'm exactly the same myself, but since I know I'm discrimination on gender I keep it to myself and if my little sister wanted to become a boxer I'd cheer her on with all my heart.

I think people really need to know something. Patriarchy has never been, and never will be, primarily men keeping down women. Throughout history (and present day) women have kept women down as much as men have, perhaps even more. Think, which would be a better incentive to conform: Snide remarks from, in the past, a practically segregated part of the society or scorn from freinds, role models and mother figures?

And please stop qouting Freud. The majority of things he said are wrong, and in no way would relate to this convo.

prinz

The King of Moo wrote: »

I, quite naively perhaps, genuinely want to convince these people and help them see their fallacies and misconceptions.
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

Hehe. Here's one for you, although often attributed to Einstein there's no actual evidence he said anything of the sort.

The King of Moo

prinz wrote: »

Hehe. Here's one for you, although often attributed to Einstein there's no actual evidence he said anything of the sort.

Oh well, that's everything I've said invalidated then, I retract it all.

Thanks for your contribution.

prinz

Zillah wrote: »

Are you aware that a huge percentage of transgender people end up suicidal without transitioning? There is no cure or treatment other than sex reassignment, which is considered a permanent and effective solution..

Is it? By who? Are you aware that a large percentage of transgender people commit suicide after sex reassignment surgery?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

wonderfulname

prinz wrote: »

Is it? By who? Are you aware that a large percentage of transgender people commit suicide after sex reassignment surgery?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

Did you read that?

Christine Burns, of PFC, said the campaign group's research suggested that the vast majority of transsexual people enjoyed much happier lives following surgery.
Ms Burns added that the greatest flaws in medical literature about gender reassignment were in those studies unsympathetic to transsexual people. For example, one study was based on a survey of seven transsexual prostitutes interviewed in one gay bar in Chicago.
She said: "The fact that research is badly constructed isn't a poor reflection on transpeople, but on the people we should be able to trust for our care. If they "lose" half the patients they ought to be able to track the question is why? As we've repeatedly pointed out ourselves there is really no difficulty in getting transpeople to come forward and cooperate in research that is properly constructed and conceived with people's true well-being in mind."...


...Transgender psychiatrists, who assess whether patients should change sex, agree that more scientific research is needed. But Kevan Wylie, chairman of the Royal College of Psychiatrists' working party on gender identity disorders, said that all of his patients' lives have drastically improved following gender reassignment surgery.
Dr Wylie added that it was difficult to conduct research on the outcome of gender reassignment, or to compare its effects with alternative treatments, because transsexualism was such a "rare experience". Urological surgeon James Bellringer, who has performed more than 200 sex changes over the past four years, claimed that trying to carry out research that involves studying a control group of transsexual patients who were denied hormones and surgery would be unethical.
Mr Bellringer, who works at the main NHS gender identity clinic at Charing Cross hospital in west London, said: "I don't think that any research that denied transsexual patients treatment would get past an ethics committee. There's no other treatment that works. You either have an operation or suffer a miserable life. A fifth of those who don't get treatment commit suicide."

prinz

wonderfulname wrote: »

Did you read that?

Why did you leave out this paragraph..

Research from the US and Holland suggests that up to a fifth of patients regret changing sex. A 1998 review by the Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive found attempted suicide rates of up to 18% noted in some medical studies of gender reassignment.

You quite obviously deliberately cut it. Now correct me if I'm wrong but surgery didn't exactly prove a "permanent and effective solution" to those referred to above did it? Interesting blog piece here which doesn't attempt to whitewash the negative aspects of surgery unlike some.

http://lamato.blogdrive.com/

There's no point mocking people for refusing to look at facts and figures on the one hand if you do the very same thing when it doesn't exactly suit. Pros and cons need to be examined and looked at and reflected on. There's nothing to be gained from pretending surgery is a rosy solution to the problem for everyone. It quite obviously isn't.

Stark

prinz wrote: »

Why did you leave out this paragraph..



You quite obviously deliberately cut it. Now correct me if I'm wrong but surgery didn't exactly prove a "permanent and effective solution" to those referred to above did it? Interesting blog piece here which doesn't attempt to whitewash the negative aspects of surgery unlike some.

http://lamato.blogdrive.com/

Why did you leave out this paragraph?

A fifth of those who don't get treatment commit suicide."

prinz

Stark wrote: »

Why did you leave out this paragraph?

Because unlike others I wasn't presenting surgery as a utopian 'solution' while simultaneously scoffing at those who labour under misconceptions etc.

Stark

prinz wrote: »

Because unlike others I wasn't presenting surgery as a utopian 'solution'.

Fair enough. But it's not "mutilation" either.

wonderfulname

prinz wrote: »

You quite obviously deliberately cut it. Now correct me if I'm wrong but surgery didn't exactly prove a "permanent and effective solution" to those referred to above did it?

I just chopped the pro side as you had already given the article under the assumption it wholly gelled with your proposition.

To put it in context here's the authors view of the piece. They cite quality of medical care, patient expectations and underlying psychological trauma as to why surgery doesn't fix every worldly problem a trans person might have, what you present is not an indictment of surgery as an effective solution for trans people.

L.Jenkins

prinz wrote: »

Is it? By who? Are you aware that a large percentage of transgender people commit suicide after sex reassignment surgery?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

The rate in Ireland is between 27-41% in favour of a pre-transition transsexual commiting suicide. After, it falls in line with the national average of around 3 per 1000 or less than 1/2 a percent due to unresolved issues. I.E. Unsupportive family or friends, an unsupportive community or general disdain from the general public.

Links234

prinz wrote: »

Is it? By who? Are you aware that a large percentage of transgender people commit suicide after sex reassignment surgery?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow

Total and utter rubbish. A "study" that was conducted exclusively for a paper that has a very anti-trans history? Yeah, lets take THAT at face value! :rolleyes:

Here's a little something for you, did you know that 41% of transgender people have attempted suicide? Do you know why that is? Here's something I posted in the last thread we've had on this subject:

http://www.thetaskforce.org/reports_and_research/ntds

Injustice at Every Turn: A Report of the National Transgender Discrimination Survey Report Type:
Report


Date:
February 03, 2011


Transgender and gender non-conforming people face rampant discrimination in every area of life: education, employment, family life, public accommodations, housing, health, police and jails, and ID documents. This data is so shocking that it will change the way you think about transgender people and it should change the way you advocate. The National Transgender Discrimination Survey was conducted by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the National Center for Transgender Equality.

KEY FINDINGS
Hundreds of dramatic findings on the impact of anti-transgender bias are presented in this report. In many cases, a series of bias-related events lead to insurmountable challenges and devastating outcomes for study participants. Several meta-findings are worth noting from the outset:

• Discrimination was pervasive throughout the entire sample, yet the combination of anti-transgender bias and persistent, structural racism was especially devastating. People of color in general fare worse than white participants across the board, with African American transgender respondents faring far worse than all others in most areas examined.

• Respondents lived in extreme poverty. Our sample was nearly four times more likely to have a household income of less than $10,000/ year compared to the general population.

• A staggering 41% of respondents reported attempting suicide compared to 1.6% of the general population,ii with rates rising for those who lost a job due to bias (55%), were harassed/bullied in school (51%), had low household income, or were the victim of physical assault (61%) or sexual assault (64%).

HARASSMENT AND DISCRIMINATION IN EDUCATION

• Those who expressed a transgender identity or gender non-conformity while in grades K-12 reported alarming rates of harassment (78%), physical assault (35%) and sexual violence (12%); harassment was so severe that it led almost one-sixth (15%) to leave a school in K-12 settings or in higher education.

• Respondents who have been harassed and abused by teachers in K-12 settings showed dramatically worse health and other outcomes than those who did not experience such abuse. Peer harassment and abuse also had highly damaging effects.

DISCRIMINATION IN PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS

• Fifty-three percent (53%) of respondents reported being verbally harassed or disrespected in a place of public accommodation, including hotels, restaurants, buses, airports and government agencies.

• Respondents experienced widespread abuse in the public sector, and were often abused at the hands of “helping” professionals and government offi cials. One fifth (22%) were denied equal treatment by a government agency or official; 29% reported police harassment or disrespect; and 12% had been denied equal treatment or harassed by judges or court officials.

So lets get one thing straight here...

Trans people commit or attempt suicide because society treats us as less than ****ing ****! Transgender people are subject to more attacks, abuse, sexual assaults than anyone other group. Being able to physically transition (which may or may not include surgery) helps greatly, but you know, surgery doesn't stop people treating you like you're less than human.

It is impossible to make any sort of claim that trans people who've attempted or commited suicide post-op do so because of their surgery. Especially not when society still treats trans people like garbage, and all too often, we can be ostracized, lose jobs, lose friends, family, everything...

prinz

wonderfulname wrote: »

I just chopped the pro side as you had already given the article under the assumption it wholly gelled with your proposition..

My 'proposition' as you put it is that it is ludicrous to suggest that surgery is an effective solution for all. I don't see a difference between complaining about people suffering under misconceptions and fallacies on one hand, and turning around and portraying a completely one-sided view of surgery as a success for all on the other.

prinz

Links234 wrote: »

Total and utter rubbish. A "study" that was conducted exclusively for a paper that has a very anti-trans history? Yeah, lets take THAT at face value! :rolleyes:.

Do you also ignore Laura Amato? Is a MtF transexual also engaging in anti-trans hysteria?

The post-op dissatisfaction rate has been increasing. Where the suicide rate was 5% after surgery it is now 11% and rising. The reason could be either from relaxing Standards, not explaining the 30% of non-orgasmic Ts's, or a simple matter of patients lying to their therapists. The increased levels in dissatisfaction need to be more closely examined by the Professionals who treat us. If not the time may come when the cure is worse than the malady

Links234 wrote: »

So lets get one thing straight here......

Yep, got one thing straight. Do not stray from the party line... and then think you are somehow a step above others who are similarly single minded. The irony.

L.Jenkins

prinz wrote: »

My 'proposition' as you put it is that it is ludicrous to suggest that surgery is an effective solution for all. I don't see a difference between complaining about people suffering under misconceptions and fallacies on one hand, and turning around and portraying a completely one-sided view of surgery as a success for all on the other.

Of course it would be a problem to take a one sided view of surgery, but I've seen and read of more Trans people commiting suicide over social aspects of transition. In a large percentage of cases, surgery is the solution, but it can all become undone when society drives someone to suicide instead of being supportive.

drunkmonkey

Guys/Girls can I just want to say I love you all. No matter who you are or what choices you make. I've never viewed anyone different with hate and I hope none of you ever think that other people hate you because your different it simply isn't true. Be happy with who you are and where you are right now. It's your life, live it the way you want but most of all enjoy it.

I do really ponder at the Swedes though. This isn't worth starting another thread over but while the M word is floating about I may as well throw out todays adventures in Sweden.

It's supposed to be racist but to be honest if it was a white girl it would be just as topical http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/17/sweden-europe-news?newsfeed=true

Zillah

What links said, but I would also be extremely sceptical of a study done in 1998 when they knew a lot less about how to conduct effective transitions, and the fact that they emphasise surgery so much makes me doubt their understanding of the issue.

Most people seem to have the notion that a person that has been living as one sex all their life one day decides to walk into a hospital and have their body changed. It's a hell of a lot more gradual than that. There are rules about taking HRT for a minimum period before surgery as well as actually living as the new sex - precautions that were not necessarily taken in the past at all.

Also bear in mind that changing sex solves some of the problems of being in the wrong body, it doesn't solve the problems of continued prejudice, bullying and brutalisation, nor the legacy of a lifetime of discrimination.

prinz

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

Of course it would be a problem to take a one sided view of surgery, but I've seen and read of more Trans people commiting suicide over social aspects of transition. In a large percentage of cases, surgery is the solution, but it can all become undone when society drives someone to suicide instead of being supportive.

I agree, but on threads such as this I find there is usually only one acceptable position to take. That is cheerleader for surgery etc. and no dissenting opinions allowed. From the author of the Guardian piece..

I dispute the accusations of transphobia. I'm not going to be held responsible for the views of Julie Bindel - who is a freelancer - or anyone else. A search of the Guardian archive will show that the paper is pro rather than anti-transsexual. I do not dispute that transsexualism exists, but as an investigative healthcare reporter I think that assessing serious problems in its treatment is quite valid

The serious problems in its treatment is what I was trying to draw attention to. According to some there are none. Also from the same author..

Some in the transsexual community has done their best to discredit those who complain they have been misdiagnosed or improperly treated. The vast majority of those I spoke to who regretted surgery were not liars or chasing compensation. Many had suffered considerable trauma and confusion, some had been sexually abused in childhood, others suffered from severe mental illnesses.

Seeing echoes of this here. The only reason people commit suicide after surgery is because of society. No possibility whatsoever that people may not have been suitable for surgery to begin with...

Links234 wrote:

It is impossible to make any sort of claim that trans people who've attempted or commited suicide post-op do so because of their surgery.

Edit: Anywho, that's me out. Just pointing out the irony in complaining about people seeing things in black and white, while simultaneously portraying things as black and white.

Links234

prinz wrote: »

Do you also ignore Laura Amato? Is a MtF transexual also engaging in anti-trans hysteria?

Hmm..

The post-op dissatisfaction rate has been increasing. [Citation Needed] Where the suicide rate was 5% after surgery it is now 11% and rising. [Citation Needed] The reason could be either from relaxing Standards, not explaining the 30% of non-orgasmic Ts's [Citation Needed], or a simple matter of patients lying to their therapists[Citation Needed]. The increased levels in dissatisfaction need to be more closely examined by the Professionals who treat us. If not the time may come when the cure is worse than the malady

xsiborg

Links234 wrote: »

Here's something to consider.

Gynecomastia in males is relatively common, it's when breast tissue develops because of a hormone imbalance or it can be caused by other issues, and for the guys who suffer with the condition, it can be absolute hell. I've personally known a few guys who've had surgery to remove their breast tissue; a double masectomy. They're obviously very happy with the results and the difference it's made to their self confidence and self esteem has been huge. Nobody made any judgements about their surgery either, it was something that was quite obviously causing them a great deal of emotional distress, so everyone was quite understanding and supportive.

Yet for trans men who want to have their breasts removed, we get all kinds of judgement calls, and certainly no end of people who speak up about them "mutilating themselves" and removing perfectly healthy breasts. The double standard is really shocking in how society as a whole can empathise with one group of men, yet be cruelly judgemental and scathing to another group of men, despite them both having the same issue.

just a quick pick-up on this one Links- many, many times transgendered people been quick to point out that being transgendered is a hell of a lot more than just corrective surgery to balance one's physical appearance with one's gender identity.

gynecomastia therefore is then by definition nowhere near the same as being transgendered, and to even compare the two is trying to draw a comparison where there is none.

men who suffer with gynecomastia do not have gender identity disorder.

i would also question the validity of the statement that nobody made any judgements either or made no scathing remarks. even if that were the case, i would imagine however that peoples reactions are less EXTREME though, as opposed to their reaction if what they physically for the most part identify as a male were to decide to have an operation to form his penis into a vagina, as that would be considered an extreme surgical procedure.

transgenderism is still a fairly radical concept for most people, and it's not ignorance that prevents them from being supportive, its the idea that the concept is so far removed from what they would have viewed as the norm, and despite how some transgendered people feel about the way society treats them, tolerance and understanding is a two-way street. people cannot be expected to adopt a concept that is foreign to them overnight, it takes time. a transgendered person will have had a lot longer to come to terms with the concept than those around them, so it is unfair on the people around them for transgendered people to judge these people as ignorant when they are introduced to a concept they simply cannot fathom overnight.

it may take time, as still not a lot is known about gender identity disorder, but society will get there eventually, although dont be surprised if some sections of society are slower to catch on than others- we still have to deal with the concepts of discrimination, racism, sexual orientation, etc.

in my opinion- you cannot force change. you can however, encourage it.

L.Jenkins

prinz wrote: »

Seeing echoes of this here. The only reason people commit suicide after surgery is because of society. No possibility whatsoever that people may not have been suitable for surgery to begin with...

See, you can quantify societies treatment of a minority group and profound mental health impact it has on the individual within the minority group. Suitability for surgery is a much bigger challange to assess as being the root cause for suicide, because the individual of every person is different. Of those who do commit suicide post-op, maybe they felt compelled to do so due to some pressure they to get surgery, because most of us know how some people feel when it comes to women with a you know what.

Zillah

prinz wrote: »

Do you also ignore Laura Amato? Is a MtF transexual also engaging in anti-trans hysteria?

Do you actually know anything about this person?
Here is an auto-biographical entry: http://www.lauras-playground.com/bio.htm

Long story short 1) Exposed to a drug in the womb that screws with hormones, 2) Forced to live as a girl by his mentally ill mother for the first four years of his life and constantly told that girls are great and boys are horrible, 3) Physically tortured by an abusive father and 4) began a life-long ritual of physically abusing his male genitals because he believe they made him dirty and wrong.

Does this sound like a typical trans person to you, or a good candidate for sex reassignment therapy/surgery?

L.Jenkins

xsiborg wrote: »

just a quick pick-up on this one Links- many, many times transgendered people been quick to point out that being transgendered is a hell of a lot more than just corrective surgery to balance one's physical appearance with one's gender identity.

gynecomastia therefore is then by definition nowhere near the same as being transgendered, and to even compare the two is trying to draw a comparison where there is none.

Of course they're not the same, but if you factor in the issues for self-esteem and dysphoria for ones appearence caused by one condition or another, then you can make a comparison by approaching it from that angle.

Babybuff

xsiborg wrote: »

just to pick you up quickly on this Babybuff, but if we are to use boards as representative of society, then six or seven in a user community of how many (not including guest users!), is about right. it may well be more than you have met in real life, but it's not more than i have met or talked to, that have informed me that they identify as transgendered or transexual.

hey, I fell asleep. Don't think it's necessary to trawl through the thread in it's entirety for it but just wanted to acknowledge your post and respond. I wasn't selecting numbers for special treatment but merely to highlight the fact that people were contributing on a personal level. It just appears strange that all of them had to fight to have their opinion recognised or acknowledged. Most have had their experiences invalidated somewhere along the way by people who truly have no intention of ever accepting their position in society. That's all I was pointing out.

wrt everything else, it's difficult to have a discussion on gender related issues where most people refuse to accept the definition of the term. It pretty much skewed off course after that. nite

prinz

Zillah wrote: »

Does this sound like a typical trans person to you, or a good candidate for sex reassignment therapy/surgery?

Exactly my point. Thanks for bringing it up. I'll refer back to the author of the Guardain article.

The vast majority of those I spoke to who regretted surgery were not liars or chasing compensation. Many had suffered considerable trauma and confusion, some had been sexually abused in childhood, others suffered from severe mental illnesses.

Hence my point that surgery is not neccessarily an effective solution for everyone one wants sex reassignment.

uncleoswald

xsiborg wrote: »

men who suffer with gynecomastia do not have gender identity disorder.

No, but surely they do have gender identity issues, i.e. having breasts make them feel less like a man? So not totally different.

wonderfulname

prinz wrote: »

Hence my point that surgery is not neccessarily an effective solution for everyone one wants sex reassignment.

I really don't think anyone here is going to claim that surgery is the be all and end all for every trans person, but there's an awful lot of people who really need it, and really benefit from it, and the way you approached this was as though surgery was not an effective treatment for them, that couldn't be further from the truth.

Zillah

prinz wrote: »

Hence my point that surgery is not neccessarily an effective solution for everyone one wants sex reassignment.

Oh...is that the point of contention?

I suppose when I said "There is no cure or treatment other than sex reassignment, which is considered a permanent and effective solution" I mentally appended "...when conducted by a competent medical professional".

As Silence of the Lambs (:pac:) so amply illustrated, there is a huge difference between a genuine transsexual and a mentally-ill person with issues around gender. It seems obvious to me that I was only referring to the former.

If someone said "Chemo is a good treatment for cancer" it wouldn't be reasonable to retort that many people who believed that they had cancer but didn't would not benefit from chemo.

prinz

wonderfulname wrote: »

...and the way you approached this was as though surgery was not an effective treatment for them, that couldn't be further from the truth.

No, that's not how I approached it. From my very first post I have just raised awareness that surgery does not necessarily mean a happy camper afterwards for everyone. My point was with people representing surgery as an effective solution for all. Clearly it isn't, but merely raising that issue drew the ire of some posters who refuse to acknowledge that surgery might ever actually worsen the situation with even some people.

Links234

prinz wrote: »

I agree, but on threads such as this I find there is usually only one acceptable position to take. That is cheerleader for surgery etc. and no dissenting opinions allowed. From the author of the Guardian piece..

The serious problems in its treatment is what I was trying to draw attention to. According to some there are none. Also from the same author..

Seeing echoes of this here. The only reason people commit suicide after surgery is because of society. No possibility whatsoever that people may not have been suitable for surgery to begin with...

Edit: Anywho, that's me out. Just pointing out the irony in complaining about people seeing things in black and white, while simultaneously portraying things as black and white.

Look prinz, like with anything, there are of course going to be misdiagnosises. It happens, just as there are people who are misdiagnosed for any other medical or psychological issue. What do we take away from this? That mistakes can be made, and that there are flaws inherent in any system. Nobody is denying that there are people out there who may not have been suitable for surgery, but the fact that this can happen, should not be used as a stick to beat trans people. for every person who was not suitable for surgery, how many are there that were? you'll find the success rates are very high.

sadly, there's no end of dodgy nonsense that people will spout, saying that because some people shouldn't have had surgery, that nobody should. that's what I'm against, and I'll shoot down that viewpoint any time.

prinz

Links234 wrote: »

Look prinz, like with anything, there are of course going to be misdiagnosises. It happens, just as there are people who are misdiagnosed for any other medical or psychological issue. What do we take away from this? That mistakes can be made, and that there are flaws inherent in any system. Nobody is denying that there are people out there who may not have been suitable for surgery....

Not long ago you were saying no suicides after surgery could be connected with the surgery.....

It is impossible to make any sort of claim that trans people who've attempted or commited suicide post-op do so because of their surgery.

Now you seem to be agreeing that there is that possibility. Thanks. That was my point. Surgery is as open to mistakes and misdiagnoses as any other. It's a point rarely raised on these threads.

xsiborg

something else i think nobody has picked up on in that article, that would support my own point of view with regard to some transgendered people comparing gender reassignment surgery to surgical procedures such as heart attacks:

Mr Bellringer, who works at the main NHS gender identity clinic at Charing Cross hospital in west London, said: "I don't think that any research that denied transsexual patients treatment would get past an ethics committee. There's no other treatment that works. You either have an operation or suffer a miserable life. A fifth of those who don't get treatment commit suicide."

now, some people who identify as transgendered have said that corrective cosmetic surgery is a life saving procedure.

i have long contended that it is not, because while a person with gender identity disorder may feel like committing suicide, ths is a decision that they have taken themselves, to end their own life, as opposed to a person who would for example need a heart and lung transplant who would die without it, with no choice in the matter, as their body simply is not physically capable of sustaining life.

a person with gender identity disorder however, has no physical impairment that would disable them from being capable of sustaining life, albeit a miserable one, according to the doctor in the article, who would i assume be considered somewhat of an expert in the field of treating patients with gender identity disorder.

choosing to end one's life, is not the same as having no choice whatsoever in that decision.

wonderfulname

prinz wrote: »

No, that's not how I approached it. From my very first post I have just raised awareness that surgery does not necessarily mean a happy camper afterwards for everyone. My point was with people representing surgery as an effective solution for all. Clearly it isn't, but merely raising that issue drew the ire of some posters who refuse to acknowledge that surgery might ever actually worsen the situation with even some people.

In that case, be more careful in how you word things, nobody said surgery is an effective solution for all, you're being misleading in your position, given the hoops trans people have to jump through for surgery in this country its quite obvious the medical profession takes irreversible surgery quite seriously, there are people who try and fail because it turns out they're not a candidate, and it's recognised in advance. It's quite dishonest to suggest that there is a notable flaw in our surgical system as a whole (in this regard) and that is exactly what you are doing.

xsiborg

uncleoswald wrote: »

No, but surely they do have gender identity issues, i.e. having breasts make them feel less like a man? So not totally different.

feeling LESS like a man though oswald, is not the same as feeling that you ARE a man, or a woman for that matter.

Links main point was that the support is not the same, i just wanted to point out that the two conditions are not the same either.

prinz

wonderfulname wrote: »

In that case, be more careful in how you word things..

I'd respectfully suggest I'm not the one who needs to be more careful with wording. Especially when there are posters who complain about others ignoring the facts etc. From the earliest responses to this page you'll see some posters have softened their position quite significantly in line with the facts that for many surgery is not an appropriate treatment.

wonderfulname

xsiborg wrote: »

i have long contended that it is not, because while a person with gender identity disorder may feel like committing suicide, ths is a decision that they have taken themselves, to end their own life...

Ever felt suicidal? Depressed? You're not exactly making decisions like a well adjusted person.

Zillah

xsiborg wrote: »

something else i think nobody has picked up on in that article, that would support my own point of view with regard to some transgendered people comparing gender reassignment surgery to surgical procedures such as heart attacks:



now, some people who identify as transgendered have said that corrective cosmetic surgery is a life saving procedure.

i have long contended that it is not, because while a person with gender identity disorder may feel like committing suicide, ths is a decision that they have taken themselves, to end their own life, as opposed to a person who would for example need a heart and lung transplant who would die without it, with no choice in the matter, as their body simply is not physically capable of sustaining life.

a person with gender identity disorder however, has no physical impairment that would disable them from being capable of sustaining life, albeit a miserable one, according to the doctor in the article, who would i assume be considered somewhat of an expert in the field of treating patients with gender identity disorder.

choosing to end one's life, is not the same as having no choice whatsoever in that decision.

You feel free to go explain your opinion to the suicide statistics and I'm sure they'll shift right in line with your expectations.

Zillah

prinz wrote: »

I'd respectfully suggest I'm not the one who needs to be more careful with wording. Especially when there are posters who complain about others ignoring the facts etc. From the earliest responses to this page you'll see some posters have softened their position quite significantly in line with the facts that for many surgery is not an appropriate treatment.

Yes, sex reassignment surgery is not appropriate for people that are not genuinely transgendered. You haven't extracted some confession or admission of error from anyone, we just finally realised that you're being incredibly obtuse. I stand by my cancer/chemo therapy analogy: Someone pointing out that chemo is not helpful to people who only think they have cancer is not a clever observation, it's sallying off to fight a position no one was taking.

Johro

bodice ripper wrote: »

I am female and I can park on a dime, hit a moving target, read the f*ck out of a map.

That's pretty impressive tbh.
Can you cry into your beer though?