Eamon Gilmore - hypocritical or just politics?

Scanlas The 2nd

What we need is 100 foot sign on O'Connell street with the main promises outlined in 10 foot font of the elected party. That sign can not be removed until they are out of power. People forget their promises too easily.

stupidusername

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

What we need is 100 foot sign on O'Connell street with the main promises outlined in 10 foot font of the elected party. That sign can not be removed until they are out of power. People forget their promises too easily.

And who do you propose takes power next?

gerryo777

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

At the request of Biko, I am trying again.

Has anyone seen this? http://i.imgur.com/sjwkR.jpg

I find it to be quite hypocritical. I've sent him an email outlining my thoughts, and hope to receive a reply soon (I will post it if he does).

We've known it all along, but now we know for sure - all politicians are the same.

And I don't care that this was imposed on us by the EU/IMF deal and that he "had no choice". If the man had any morals and pride in his party ideals he would have opposed this water charge to the bitter end.

What do you think?

Enda Kenny & Eamon Gilmore don't govern Ireland.

They are a government in name only.

Merkel & sarcozy call the shots here, the above mentioned are mere penpushers, glorified civil 'servants' on bloated wages and allowances. (like most civil servants here).

Scanlas The 2nd

stupidusername wrote: »

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

What we need is 100 foot sign on O'Connell street with the main promises outlined in 10 foot font of the elected party. That sign can not be removed until they are out of power. People forget their promises too easily.

And who do you propose takes power next?

There is no party I propose takes power, I'm just sick of the promises sneakily fading away. The promises should never be forgotten for each Parties tenure.

Bullseye1

I would trust the IMF before our gangsters. There is no emotion or agenda at least with them. They provide the money and expect value.

up for anything

_Gawd_ wrote: »

How is it a poor argument? It precisely hits the nail on the head.

It's not the politicians that are to blame - it's the morons that keep voting them in time and again. Look at the polls! If there was a GE tomorrow morning FG and LP would be in government again....are you totally clueless? I hope they bleed you dry for your own stupidity.

Are you always this rude (or perhaps clueless)? Why should you be wishing that on me? Why should I be bled dry for other people's stupidity?

I don't see how your argument hits the nail on the head? You can't lump every person in any particular country into an amphorous mass called 'the people'.

hondasam

stupidusername wrote: »

How do you maintain that? Isn't it Michael Noonan etc going to Brussels or wherever to meeting the IMF/EU people about our debts and negotiating the terms of the bailout etc..? And who are the ones taking the flak about the household charge and water charges? i'm sure that if that was down to local councillors it'd have been passed onto them by now, with the negative press it's gotten.

Who do you think does all the work in local communities, who gets grants for road improvements, who do people phone or call to when they have a problem? their local councillor not the big boys.
When the big boys are running for election who goes round door to door with them? when the local councillor is running for election it's him/her who takes all the flak at the door from the public.
It's not all about Dublin and the Dail or the IMF. Local politics is very important.

Scanlas The 2nd

Another thing that pisses me off is when when they say they couldn't keep their promises because circumstances changed. Dont make promises if changing circumstances could break the promises.

I remember doing a canal tour of Canterbury in England and the guide was telling us about how the "witch trials" were carried out by the ducking stool. He told us how also if a business person was found to be lying and generally dishonest, he would also be put in the ducking stool and dropped into the river, with a large crowd gathered around to see that said person was in fact dishonest and they would avoid doing business with him - seemingly, according to the guide - this is where the phrase, "business going under" originates from.

I dunno bout you, but I reckon they should bring back the ducking stool for any politician who has been shown to be dishonest, who has lied and has broken their promises.

stupidusername

hondasam wrote: »

Who do you think does all the work in local communities, who gets grants for road improvements, who do people phone or call to when they have a problem? their local councillor not the big boys.
When the big boys are running for election who goes round door to door with them? when the local councillor is running for election it's him/her who takes all the flak at the door from the public.
It's not all about Dublin and the Dail or the IMF. Local politics is very important.

I'm not denying any of that. you're right, of course.

but is any of that in the news lately? the big decisions affecting most people in the country right now are the household charge and water charge issue. neither of these major issues are in the hands of local councillors.

UglyBolloxFace

hondasam wrote: »

When did he say this? Things change, what any of us thought a few years ago could have changed now. It's not as simple as it looks. He is in government now but he just cannot go against everything either for the sake of it.

I see what you mean. But let me put it to you this way.

He's the leader of the Labour party, a party which is supposed to look out for the worker's of this country.

Now, in the image I attached in my OP you can clearly see that he says this is "just another tax on the workers". So, if he is still sticking to his party ideals, which again is to look out for the workers, why would his opinion on this household charge being a tax on workers change? It's his party's main concern, or at least it should be.

He's a hypocritical sell-out, pure and simple.

Biggins

Originally Posted by _Gawd_
How is it a poor argument? It precisely hits the nail on the head.

It's not the politicians that are to blame - it's the morons that keep voting them in time and again. Look at the polls! If there was a GE tomorrow morning FG and LP would be in government again....are you totally clueless? I hope they bleed you dry for your own stupidity.

Lets look at the statement direct: "The people always get the government they deserve."

"The people"
Now is this the whole people, the whole nation or would it not be more HONEST and ACCURATE to say instead "The voters that voted for certain ministers" ?

So we should if we are have honesty and more accurate say "The voters that voted for certain ministers get the government they deserve" ?

And even that is wrong (I feel).

"...get the government they deserve?"

Well if the voters voted for them based on their election manifesto's and speeches prior to election day - they, the voters are only voting on what the politicians are saying they are going to do!
(...But as we have seen - they do oft times something else!)
We (SOME of us) gave them our vote, trust and livelihood to safeguard based on what they have stated they would see through)

Analogy: If I send you to the shop after you have told me you will go directly there - and then instead, you rob a granny - am I to blame for the granny being robbed?

So "The people always get the government they deserve." to me is too simplistic, too daftly encompassing everyone where everyone did NOT vote for the same thing anyway and that we are indeed responsible for putting them there - buts as for what they actually do instead of what they said they will do?
...Well thats like also giving them a get-out clause to boot, for any antics they then do from that point onwards.

Feel feel to disagree.

_Gawd_

up for anything wrote: »

Are you always this rude (or perhaps clueless)? Why should you be wishing that on me? Why should I be bled dry for other people's stupidity?

I don't see how your argument hits the nail on the head? You can't lump every person in any particular country into an amphorous mass called 'the people'.

Half a million people in this country thought it was a good idea to vote in FF in the last election - the same cronies (although they're all the same - FF just made a TOTAL mess of it) that completely screwed up the country. Now how can you sit there and tell me that this kind of deep rooted civil war parish pump "my team" or "our people" does not equal the people getting the government they deserve.

FG and LP have shown they're no different - now go and look at the polls and tell me if there was a GE tomorrow morning that these same corporatist parties would not walz back into Leinster House? Of course they would! Household charges, property taxes, water levies, higher taxes, ****tier services...and what have we got to show for it? Of yeah, billions leaving our shores in a bid to please their corporatist friends in the EU.

So yes, I hope FG/LP totally destroy this place - I've given up on trying to shed light on it because as soon as you ask people to seriously address the debt you get called some kind of loony or nutcase. Well **** them...the quicker the better it comes all crashing down (and it will, trust me) the quicker we can begin to rebuild our country.

stupidusername

Biggins wrote: »

Lets look at the statement direct: "The people always get the government they deserve."

I don't know why you're quoting me there, that's not something I said.

hondasam

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

I see what you mean. But let me put it to you this way.

He's the leader of the Labour party, a party which is supposed to look out for the worker's of this country.

Now, in the image I attached in my OP you can clearly see that he says this is "just another tax on the workers". So, if he is still sticking to his party ideals, which again is to look out for the workers, why would his opinion on this household charge being a tax on workers change? It's his party's main concern, or at least it should be.

He's a hypocritical sell-out, pure and simple.

Was that statement from 1996?
I know what you are saying but if he did say no to the charges what would happen, the collapse of the government I assume.
He is a hypocrite but you have to make some allowances for his position as well I think.

billybudd

All i look for in a polical party is honesty & transparency, sadly needer one is common in Irish politics.

Biggins

stupidusername wrote: »

I don't know why you're quoting me there, that's not something I said.

Unequivocal apologies. I posted the wrong quote.

Duggys Housemate

All of this whining is because the Government has to raise taxes. You also blame the politicians for the boom, when in fact taxes should have been raised, or spending lowered, or both to counteract cheap money. But there was no chance of any politician doing that in a manifesto.

So yea, democracy has failed.

UglyBolloxFace

hondasam wrote: »

I think the Irish mentality has changed, we are not laid back any more. It's local councillors who do the work for the people not those in the high paid Dail jobs.

We were, are and, I hate to say it, will be forever laid-back, until we are rioting in the streets like other people, instead of behaving like fucking sheep.

I just wish I could mobilise like-minded people like myself and take to the streets and the Dail gates.

Duggys Housemate

billybudd wrote: »

All i look for in a polical party is honesty & transparency, sadly needer one is common in Irish politics.

Because if anybody seeking election load it out truthfully - we will have to increase VAT, water charges, lower spending etc. you would not vote for them.

hondasam

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

We were, are and, I hate to say it, will be forever laid-back, until we are rioting in the streets like other people, instead of behaving like fucking sheep.

I just wish I could mobilise like-minded people like myself and take to the streets and the Dail gates.

I have no intentions of rioting in the streets no matter how bad things get, it's not something I would condone at all. Peaceful protest yes but not rioting.

billybudd

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

All of this whining is because the Government has to raise taxes. You also blame the politicians for the boom, when in fact taxes should have been raised, or spending lowered, or both to counteract cheap money. But there was no chance of any politician doing that in a manifesto.

So yea, democracy has failed.

Err governments govern this country so if they did not put in place a propper financial plan during the goods years then yes it is their fault, who else fault could it be?

stupidusername

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

I just wish I could mobilise like-minded people like myself and take to the streets and the Dail gates.

Have you tried?

Duggys Housemate

billybudd wrote: »

Err governments govern this country so if they did not put in place a propper financial plan during the goods years then yes it is their fault, who else fault could it be?

They are putting place a proper financial plan now and this whole thread is a major whine-fest. There is no way they could have done what was needed in the boom which was anti-cylical spending. If you are opposed to tax increases, or sponging reductions, when the economy is €18B in the red then you would oppose them where are in the black.

_Gawd_

Biggins wrote: »

"...get the government they deserve?"

Feel feel to disagree.

In your mind, there are dark areas - for me there isn't.

If I vote for Joe Higgins, I know exactly what I'm getting. If I vote for LP/FG/FF I DON'T! And neither should anyone else - you seem to think that this government has just fallen out of the sky or have walked through some membrane from another reality. For crying out loud, you would need to be seriously incompetent to believe any of these parties....their policy books are nothing but the Corporatist Manifesto or Fascism to the keen political, economically educated eye...how is it so shocking now?!?

Why don't you vote for a party of principle - just as soon as one is established....you'll know them when you see them..trust me, they'll be the one's the mainstream media and everyone else are scared to death of and won't stop attacking.

Duggys Housemate

_Gawd_ wrote: »

In your mind, there are dark areas - for me there isn't.

If I vote for Joe Higgins, I know exactly what I'm getting. If I vote for LP/FG/FF I DON'T! And neither should anyone else - you seem to think that this government has just fallen out of the sky or have walked through some membrane from another reality. For crying out loud, you would need to be seriously incompetent to believe any of these parties....their policy books are nothing but the Corporatist Manifesto or Fascism to the political, economical eye...how is it so shocking now?!?

Why don't you vote for a party of principle - just as soon as one is established....you'll know them when you see them..trust me, they'll be the one's the mainstream media and everyone else are scared to death of and won't stop attacking.

So whats Joe Higgen's plan to handle the €18B deficit?

billybudd

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Because if anybody seeking election load it out truthfully - we will have to increase VAT, water charges, lower spending etc. you would not vote for them.

Bull**** and a stupid mind frame, i would if it is set out in a transparent way so i as a worker can budget within my limit for now and for the future, if we had these charges in place five years ago then i would say house prices would not have reached such an absurd level.

Duggys Housemate

billybudd wrote: »

Bull**** and a stupid mind frame, i would if it is set out in a transparent way so i as a worker can budget within my limit for now and for the future, if we had these charges in place five years ago then i would say house prices would not have reached such an absurd level.

Yes, well I cant speak for you. Most people are economic illiterates, and would not have gotten the idea that we increase tax in the boom. Politicians should lead, in this case they are. They are abandoning their manifesto and leading.

_Gawd_

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

So whats Joe Higgen's plan to handle the €18B deficit?

I'm not a Joe Higgins fan at all - I think he doesn't understand economics. My point is that you know what you're getting because he's locked into his ideology.

ejmaztec

Bullseye1 wrote: »

What's sad is that some people think its acceptable to lie to the public.

It's only acceptable to politicians, and when caught out, each and everyone of them will say that they were quoted out of context, or what they said was misinterpreted. Highly paid wafflers, the lot of 'em.

Shryke

I'm socialist if I have to define myself politically but I would never associate myself with the Irish Labour party. The entirety of Irish politics is horrible from the ground up and I just can't keep looking at it. There's no shame at all. Only foolish notions that our leaders have. I hope they are all crooked snakes because the alternative is they are a shower of gullible simple looking fools that aren't cut out for authority.

Enda Kenny should have stayed teaching primary school. What a lacky. Bosco has more spine than that man.

Biggins

_Gawd_ wrote: »

In your mind, there are dark areas - for me there isn't.

Said (honestly) with the greatest of respect, there is many shades of grey, Nothing is that clear cut.

_Gawd_ wrote: »

If I vote for Joe Higgins, I know exactly what I'm getting.

Some might find this hard to believe but there are others out there that are not as interested in the finite details of politics and finer details of what a politician does and says over time.
They sometimes (daftly I feel) vote for them because their family did, and/or it was 'tradition', they voted for them because they got them (supposedly) a house or fixed the street lights.
While these are clear cuts action in themselves, they are a local issue in respect of one person and does not reflect any further thing to do with national policies or views upon them.
The voter some times sees only the former and not the latter!

_Gawd_ wrote: »

For crying out loud, you would need to be seriously incompetent to believe any of these parties...

You could be right but we - all of us - at the end of the day, can only really go on what we know, hear from them and see of them in action.
...If they then decided independent of us and our ability to day to day control them, do something different then hell... lets all throw ourselves in prison every time they take a possible payoff (sorry, won horse race winnings) and say we are all culpable!

We can only go on empirical words, actions, a touch of hope and a modicum of early trust

_Gawd_ wrote: »

...their policy books are nothing but the Corporatist Manifesto or Fascism to the political, economical eye...

Aaa.. Ok!
I see, are you saying all their different polices now, are all the same!
Rhetorical question.

_Gawd_ wrote: »

Why don't you vote for a party of principle - just as soon as one is established....you'll know them when you see them..trust me, they'll be the one's the mainstream media and everyone else are scared to death of and won't stop attacking.

You mean like "The Irish Democratic Party" ?
(www.idp.ie)
While not maybe perfect - show me a party that is! - they are at least new and change of scenery unlike the present other shower that is constantly playing an never ending musical chairs game in the Dail.
You know what, your right, I might just join them!

P.S.
I already have!

tayto lover

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

So whats Joe Higgen's plan to handle the €18B deficit?

Probably to appoint his own favourites to the Seanad, or other needless state bodies or quangos. To give his advisers huge rises and break all his election promises.
Oops sorry did you say Joe or Enda or Eamonn ?

billybudd

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Yes, well I cant speak for you. Most people are economic illiterates, and would not have gotten the idea that we increase tax in the boom. Politicians should lead, in this case they are. They are abandoning their manifesto and leading.

most people are aware of simple incoming/outcoming finances.

Politics must become honest and transparent to people regardless of intelligence.

Duggys Housemate

tayto lover wrote: »

Probably to appoint his own favourites to the Seanad, or other needless state bodies or quangos. To give his advisers huge rises and break all his election promises.
Oops sorry did you say Joe or Enda or Eamonn ?

No I said what was Joe Higgins solution for the deficit. I don't really get the answer anyway because it wouldn't be a solution to the deficit.

The whining on this thread is partially about stuff that has to happen to curtail the deficit.

Duggys Housemate

billybudd wrote: »

most people are aware of simple incoming/outcoming finances.

Politics must become honest and transparent to people regardless of intelligence.

Cool, however my feeling is that a lot of people in this thread would not get it. We save in the good times, we spend the savings in the bad times. This would eliminate booms and busts.

At the moment we have no savings. And we cant borrow, so we have to stop spending in the bad times. Which makes the bad times worse.

tayto lover

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Yes, well I cant speak for you. Most people are economic illiterates, and would not have gotten the idea that we increase tax in the boom. Politicians should lead, in this case they are. They are abandoning their manifesto and leading.

Was your last word not meant to be misleading ?

Biggins

hondasam wrote: »

This thread is about Eamon Gilmore, not the Labour party or FG.

He is the man at the top of the table.
While he can (should) listen to what others are saying around his table, he doesn't have to obey them and if he does - either way, he's thee face of the party and the man that calls the final shots also.

_Gawd_

Biggins wrote: »

You mean like "The Irish Democratic Party" ?
(www.idp.ie)
While not maybe perfect - show me a party that is! - they are at least new and change of scenery unlike the present other shower that is constantly playing an never ending musical chairs game in the Dail.
You know what, your right, I might just join them!

P.S.
I already have!

I know you've joined them - I seen the thread. Although I respect some members in there - they're not the same party that they were a few years ago. Perhaps a consequence of the new people joining. Thanks but I'll pass.

Biggins

_Gawd_ wrote: »

...Thanks but I'll pass.

No worries, we can only go with what we feel is worth trying.

So if the present lot in power get back in again later, am I also to blame?
I might be if we just stick to the (too) short and (too) easy encompassing "The people always get the government they deserve."

billybudd

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Cool, however my feeling is that a lot of people in this thread would not get it. We save in the good times, we spend the savings in the bad times. This would eliminate booms and busts.

At the moment we have no savings. And we cant borrow, so we have to stop spending in the bad times. Which makes the bad times worse.

We do borrow and will continue to borrow for the foreseable future.

Anyway we need a political party who have the countries interests first and foremost, we need a strong party to have a ridgit financial plan that services our debts and leads us to running our country without bail outs and so on, in time we need to eradicate booms/reccesions and have a level financial plan that runs our countries services without the need to borrow to cover them.

StupidLikeAFox

This is from the program for government

A New Water Network: The new Government will create Irish Water, a new State company that will take over the water investment maintenance programmes of the 34 existing local authorities. It will supervise and accelerate the planned investments needed to upgrade the State’s inefficient and leaking water network so has proved so unreliable during the recent harsh water conditions.

It was also a part of the bailout agreement which was signed before they got into government, and that was signed with the people who are currently paying our bills.

I think the government don't exactly have a lot of wriggle room to implement the policies they want to. I think in ordinary times it would be different, but they are in a straightjacket at the moment. FF kept all their promises, gave the people what they wanted and look where that got us, running a ridiculous deficit after a ridiculous increase in spending over that governments lifetime.

I also dont think that you can hold someone to opinions they had ~20 years ago

UglyBolloxFace

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

What we need is 100 foot sign on O'Connell street with the main promises outlined in 10 foot font of the elected party. That sign can not be removed until they are out of power. People forget their promises too easily.

Actually...how much would that cost? How much would it cost to put up a big banner/billboard like this? It's a ****ing great idea. Surely if we split the cost between a load of us it'll be very very cheap per head.

Anyone know how much advertising companies (JC Decaux etc) charge, or how much they would charge us meer plebs?

UglyBolloxFace

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I would trust the IMF before our gangsters. There is no emotion or agenda at least with them. They provide the money and expect value.

Nah I do not believe that, nor should you. The Rothschilds run the IMF - they are in it for pure profit, nothing less.

tayto lover

ColHol wrote: »

This is from the program for government


It was also a part of the bailout agreement which was signed before they got into government, and that was signed with the people who are currently paying our bills.

I think the government don't exactly have a lot of wriggle room to implement the policies they want to. I think in ordinary times it would be different, but they are in a straightjacket at the moment. FF kept all their promises, gave the people what they wanted and look where that got us, running a ridiculous deficit after a ridiculous increase in spending over that governments lifetime.

I also dont think that you can hold someone to opinions they had ~20 years ago

FG and Labour sat on their hands during the time FF made all the promises and never opened their mouths. They are every bit as guilty as FF because they were the worst opposition in the history of the state. Then to get elected they also made false promises and this was not 20 years ago at all, it was early last year. They got elected through lies and false promises. There is no doubt about that. Again I detest liars.

Duggys Housemate

tayto lover wrote: »

FG and Labour sat on their hands during the time FF made all the promises and never opened their mouths. They are every bit as guilty as FF because they were the worst opposition in the history of the state. Then to get elected they also made false promises and this was not 20 years ago at all, it was early last year. They got elected through lies and false promises. There is no doubt about that. Again I detest liars.

I think you detest the tax rises. Neither FF or FG "lied" during their manifestos in the boom. unfortunately they did what they promised.

tayto lover

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

I think you detest the tax rises. Neither FF or FG "lied" during their manifestos in the boom. unfortunately they did what they promised.

I think you are trying to defend the indefensible. I never mentioned "tax" at all. Read the post.

Bullseye1

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Nah I do not believe that, nor should you. The Rothschilds run the IMF - they are in it for pure profit, nothing less.

Profit is good.

_Gawd_

Biggins wrote: »

No worries, we can only go with what we feel is worth trying.

So if the present lot in power get back in again later, am I also to blame?
I might be if we just stick to the (too) short and (too) easy encompassing "The people always get the government they deserve."

No, at least you've done something.

Freddie59

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

At the request of Biko, I am trying again.

Has anyone seen this? http://i.imgur.com/sjwkR.jpg

I find it to be quite hypocritical. I've sent him an email outlining my thoughts, and hope to receive a reply soon (I will post it if he does).

We've known it all along, but now we know for sure - all politicians are the same.

And I don't care that this was imposed on us by the EU/IMF deal and that he "had no choice". If the man had any morals and pride in his party ideals he would have opposed this water charge to the bitter end.

What do you think?

Power corrupts. Couple that with the fact that, for all his roaring in opposition, reality bites when the real Government (senior Civil Servants) start telling him what to do.

But it is funny to watch him squirm, while supporting a right-wing conservative party, while espousing socialist bullsh!t "doctrine" at the recent Labour Party conference.

The funniest, though, are the ones who swallowed it hook, line, and sinker when they voted him and his mob in.:)