Expedition sets out to find Mokele

Adam Khor

http://news.discovery.com/earth/missouri-man-seeks-african-nessie-120418.html

Yeah, good luck guys :rolleyes:

Galvasean

Now there's a good way to waste time and money...

Capt'n Midnight

LOL

There was documentary on a while back and they showed the local lads there some pictures to see if they could ID it.

and they picked a rhino.

Adam Khor

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

LOL

There was documentary on a while back and they showed the local lads there some pictures to see if they could ID it.

and they picked a rhino.

I have a book on cryptozoology and the footprints they show as being Mokele's are obviously rhino tracks. Also, it is said it doesn´t like hippos, right? Well I remember an account of a hippo who would bite rhinos in the backside to prevent them from coming anywhere near its waterhole. Eventually a male rhino got sick of him and gored the hippo to death. I don´t think they like each other much XD

Galvasean

Also many reports of mokele say he has a horn on his head. Some have interpreted this as being akin to the head crest of a brachiosaur... or you know, a rhino which actually has a horn...

Adam Khor

Galvasean wrote: »

Also many reports of mokele say he has a horn on his head. Some have interpreted this as being akin to the head crest of a brachiosaur... or you know, a rhino which actually has a horn...

I think the main argument against Mokele being a rhino is that there are no rhinos in thick jungle, at least in Africa. Also, many stories mention a long neck...
I must admit I've imagined Mokele as a giant softshell turtle myself. It would explain the large (but not sauropod-large) size, its long neck and semiaquatic habits and even the horn (as some softshells have long, tube-like noses to breathe while submerged). There ARE giant softshell turtles in tropical Africa so... either its a combination of more than one beast, or the version of the story we get has been modified for a long time by folks who WANTED it to resemble a dinosaur somehow...

Galvasean

I was hoping for a giant semi aquatic monitor lizard... who fights elephants.

Adam Khor

Galvasean wrote: »

I was hoping for a giant semi aquatic monitor lizard... who fights elephants.

But isn´t it said to be vegetarian?

Although, there IS at least one vegetarian monitor lizard... still, I'll defend my turtle idea XD

Galvasean

*Some* reports say Mokele attacks and kills elephants.
Of course the reports tend to be so contradictory that there is pretty much no way the are all the same thing.

Adam Khor

Galvasean wrote: »

*Some* reports say Mokele attacks and kills elephants.
Of course the reports tend to be so contradictory that there is pretty much no way the are all the same thing.

Yeah I've read that too but I've never seen any reports of it actually EATING the animals it kills. It seems that he simply doesn´t like elephants. Or hippos. I don´t think he has many friends. (Emela Ntouka seems to be just as cranky)

Capt'n Midnight

Rhinos could take out elephants

also the forest there changes over time depending on the rainfall, so over the course of centuries it ebbs and wanes and there is no problem for a rhino to live in shrubland or less dense forest.

Adam Khor

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Rhinos could take out elephants

also the forest there changes over time depending on the rainfall, so over the course of centuries it ebbs and wanes and there is no problem for a rhino to live in shrubland or less dense forest.

Doing some reading, it seems that Indian rhinos ARE extremely aggressive towards elephants and that elephants usually flee from them.
What's interesting is that the Indian rhino usually attacks elephants by biting, not goring with its horn.

Also, all cases of African elephants killing rhinos have happened during musth, an hormonal condition during which the elephant becomes incredibly aggressive- it may be that in normal conditions, African elephants keep their distance from rhinos as well?

Wibbs

Adam Khor wrote: »

I think the main argument against Mokele being a rhino is that there are no rhinos in thick jungle, at least in Africa.

There may well be though. Why? Because the Congo jungle while primeval looking is not actually that ancient. Which also kills the idea of a surviving dinosaur. Fossil evidence from the region shows it was open grassland not that long ago(10-20 Kya IIRC). Current evidence also shows this in the form of otherwise grassland animals being present in a jungle environment, albeit dwarfed as an adaptation. The Congo elephant being a good example(and many species of normally grassland antelope). So I'd not be at all surprised to discover there was a remnant population of congo rhinos hiding out, maybe even adapting to a somewhat aquatic existence. Even with such a recent origin some surprises are there. Like the "Killer ape", a sub species of huge gorilla like chimp found in the area and barely described by science. Funny enough much of the current Amazon jungle is also quite recent.

If I was looking for cryptids I'd be looking in places like SE Asia. Thylacines in that neck of the woods as one example. Sub species of Orangs like the Orang pendek another. Unlike other bigfoot type creatures, that one has been seen by reliable people with some training. Inc. an Orang researcher sometimes described as the Jane Goodall of Orangs(sadly her name escapes). Plus it's foot doesn't look hominid, more like an adapted pongoid. Other areas that might be of interest would be the vast forests of Russia that stretch all the way to the Pacific and into China. Much of it barely explored, never mind mapped. Then we have the vast oceans where I'm sure undiscovered animals, inc big ones exist.

Galvasean

Wibbs wrote: »

If I was looking for cryptids I'd be looking in places like SE Asia. Thylacines in that neck of the woods as one example.

The Tasmanian 'wolf' in south east Asia?

Rubecula

It may just be a sighting of som of my ex's cooking, that was truly monsterous, and believe me you could seriously kill elephants with it.

Wibbs

Galvasean wrote: »

The Tasmanian 'wolf' in south east Asia?

Apparently so. Their range(or subspecies range) was much wider in the past apparently. They were present in Australia and Papua New Guinea.

Adam Khor

Wibbs wrote: »

There may well be though. Why? Because the Congo jungle while primeval looking is not actually that ancient. Which also kills the idea of a surviving dinosaur. Fossil evidence from the region shows it was open grassland not that long ago(10-20 Kya IIRC). Current evidence also shows this in the form of otherwise grassland animals being present in a jungle environment, albeit dwarfed as an adaptation. The Congo elephant being a good example(and many species of normally grassland antelope). So I'd not be at all surprised to discover there was a remnant population of congo rhinos hiding out, maybe even adapting to a somewhat aquatic existence.

Oh, I don´t doubt that there could be rhinos hiding there- I just say that the usual argument would be that there are no rhinos in the African jungle; that's what most people will tell you. Indian rhinos however seem quite at home in either jungle or grasslands, so...

I don´t think the Congo jungle being relatively recent completely kills the idea of a surviving dino; mind you, not saying that I believe there is one, but if that was the case, the fact that the vegetation in the Congo jungle is very different from say, Jurassic or Cretaceous forests means that the hypothetical dino wouldn´t be the result of a frozen-in-time "lost world" but rather of succesful adaptation to a changing environment. One can dream...

Wibbs wrote: »

Even with such a recent origin some surprises are there. Like the "Killer ape", a sub species of huge gorilla like chimp found in the area and barely described by science. Funny enough much of the current Amazon jungle is also quite recent.

If I was looking for cryptids I'd be looking in places like SE Asia. Thylacines in that neck of the woods as one example. Sub species of Orangs like the Orang pendek another. Unlike other bigfoot type creatures, that one has been seen by reliable people with some training. Inc. an Orang researcher sometimes described as the Jane Goodall of Orangs(sadly her name escapes). Plus it's foot doesn't look hominid, more like an adapted pongoid. Other areas that might be of interest would be the vast forests of Russia that stretch all the way to the Pacific and into China. Much of it barely explored, never mind mapped. Then we have the vast oceans where I'm sure undiscovered animals, inc big ones exist.

I think I've said this before either here or in the zoology forum but I believe the Orang Pendek could be a large gibbon rather than an orangutan or hominin. Gibbons are bipedal when in the ground, and the fact that they are so rarely seen could be explained by the gibbon's almost exclusively arboreal habits- they would spend most of their time on the tree tops. What do you think?

(Yeah, this is off topic I know XD)

Wibbs

Adam Khor wrote: »

Oh, I don´t doubt that there could be rhinos hiding there- I just say that the usual argument would be that there are no rhinos in the African jungle; that's what most people will tell you. Indian rhinos however seem quite at home in either jungle or grasslands, so...

True.

I don´t think the Congo jungle being relatively recent completely kills the idea of a surviving dino; mind you, not saying that I believe there is one, but if that was the case, the fact that the vegetation in the Congo jungle is very different from say, Jurassic or Cretaceous forests means that the hypothetical dino wouldn´t be the result of a frozen-in-time "lost world" but rather of succesful adaptation to a changing environment. One can dream...

I think the age of the jungle really doesn't help though. It's a "new" environment, so it would be odd to find such an ancient if adapted lineage in such a place. Like you said though we can dream.

I think I've said this before either here or in the zoology forum but I believe the Orang Pendek could be a large gibbon rather than an orangutan or hominin. Gibbons are bipedal when in the ground, and the fact that they are so rarely seen could be explained by the gibbon's almost exclusively arboreal habits- they would spend most of their time on the tree tops. What do you think?

That's a novel one. Yes that would make a lot of sense. Though the descriptions don't mention the gibbons very long arms. Could well be observer bias mind you.

Myrddin

Living dinosaurs in remote Africa? Bah! You only need to look in the garden to find them

Adam Khor

And many look like they do belong in the Mesozoic (Although, granted, these one's your unlikely to find in your garden XD)

steddyeddy

This must be the tenth expidition to find that thing. Much more likely in my opinion is the mapinguari as seen by locals in the amazon. They picked out a picture of a giant ground sloth multiple times. Zoologist david Oren also collected multiple sightings of the mapinguari including stories of kills and stories of the natives aparantly raising two infants. Again all people involved picked the ground sloth out of a book as what they saw. The ground sloth only became extinct 10,000 years ago so its not impossible that a few remain.

Adam Khor

steddyeddy wrote: »

This must be the tenth expidition to find that thing. Much more likely in my opinion is the mapinguari as seen by locals in the amazon. They picked out a picture of a giant ground sloth multiple times. Zoologist david Oren also collected multiple sightings of the mapinguari including stories of kills and stories of the natives aparantly raising two infants. Again all people involved picked the ground sloth out of a book as what they saw. The ground sloth only became extinct 10,000 years ago so its not impossible that a few remain.

Again, I think I've said it before, but I spoke to a guy who visited the Venezuelan jungle and he claims that the natives also recognized sabertoothed tigers from pictures in books. According to them, the cat is very much alive...:cool:

steddyeddy

Adam Khor wrote: »

Again, I think I've said it before, but I spoke to a guy who visited the Venezuelan jungle and he claims that the natives also recognized sabertoothed tigers from pictures in books. According to them, the cat is very much alive...:cool:

I havent heard any first or even second hand reports of saber toothed tigers but I have read several reports of big cats with long "tusk" like teeth in south America and a few in Africa. The thing that strikes me is that more or less every report maintains that the saner tooth tiger or cat is semi aquatic!

Galvasean

I'd take semi-aquatic saber toothed cats with a pinch of salt. Big cats are generally good swimmers and in the Congo the odd swim might be unavoidable to get from A to B.
Re: teeth, jaguars have pretty impressive canines:

I can't help but think locals who 'recognise' pictures of saber tooth cats are thinking about jaguars. The extra long teeth could be chalked down to perceived artistic license.
"and the fish was THIS big" so to speak.

steddyeddy

Galvasean wrote: »

I'd take semi-aquatic saber toothed cats with a pinch of salt. Big cats are generally good swimmers and in the Congo the odd swim might be unavoidable to get from A to B.
Re: teeth, jaguars have pretty impressive canines:

I can't help but think locals who 'recognise' pictures of saber tooth cats are thinking about jaguars. The extra long teeth could be chalked down to perceived artistic license.
"and the fish was THIS big" so to speak.

I really did catch one this big last week!!!

As you say big cats are great swimmers. Tigers have been known to purposely chase deer into rivers in order to outswim them.

Rubecula

I think I have mentioned previously in another thread somewhere, that evolution of sabre toothed cats has occured a number of times in unrelated species. It is likely to happen again, and if a cat is going to evolve that way, it most likely will start with an individual having elongated teeth and breeding true. So if a person or persons sees a large cat with slightly longer than average canines that will perhaps explain some of the sightings, that and the "I caught one this big" scenario.

However until there is firm evidence of a living sabre toothed cat of any type, I keep an open mind as to whether they actually exist in this day and age.

Adam Khor

Galvasean wrote: »

I can't help but think locals who 'recognise' pictures of saber tooth cats are thinking about jaguars. The extra long teeth could be chalked down to perceived artistic license.
"and the fish was THIS big" so to speak.

I'm not sure... there's a big difference between a jaguar and a Smilodon. Unless of course they gave the sabertooth a jaguar's coat XD

steddyeddy wrote: »

I really did catch one this big last week!!!

As you say big cats are great swimmers. Tigers have been known to purposely chase deer into rivers in order to outswim them.

Not only that; they are known to capture large crocodiles in the water, to steal kills from crocodiles and even, to attack fishermen FROM the water, snatching them from their boats (this has been often reported in the Sunderbans), just like a crocodile would!

Kess73

Adam Khor wrote: »

I'm not sure... there's a big difference between a jaguar and a Smilodon. Unless of course they gave the sabertooth a jaguar's coat XD



Not only that; they are known to capture large crocodiles in the water, to steal kills from crocodiles and even, to attack fishermen FROM the water, snatching them from their boats (this has been often reported in the Sunderbans), just like a crocodile would!

Generally tiger/croc spats are between tigers and Mugger crocodiles or tigers and Gharials. Tigers tend to give big Salties a wide berth though as although a Tiger could kill a juvenile saltie, a fully grown adult saltie is more than able to kill a tiger. Hence tigers avoiding areas that have salties in them.

Adam Khor

Kess73 wrote: »

Generally tiger/croc spats are between tigers and Mugger crocodiles or tigers and Gharials. Tigers tend to give big Salties a wide berth though as although a Tiger could kill a juvenile saltie, a fully grown adult saltie is more than able to kill a tiger. Hence tigers avoiding areas that have salties in them.

True, true, but even so, a mugger crocodile in the water is a formidable adversary. It doesn´t HAVE to be a saltie

Kess73

Adam Khor wrote: »

True, true, but even so, a mugger crocodile in the water is a formidable adversary. It doesn´t HAVE to be a saltie

Oh a mugger is no pusher, but in terms of sheer size, power, and killing ability not to mention temperament it is a poor imitation of an adult saltie.

A huge Mugger croc might weight around the 1,000 lbs mark and be 15ft to 17ft.

A 2,000 lbs 17ft Saltie would be regarded as large but not exceptionally big.

The largest living male saltie, that we know of, is the one in India that the Guiness book of records accepts as the biggest and he is estimated to weigh well over 4,000 lbs and be close to 23 feet in length, and there were two 20 feet Salties caught last year, one in Northern Oz and the other in the Philippines.

Have been cage diving with Great whites bumping my cage in Oz, Africa and near the Farallon Islands, have been free swimming and had a Killer whale decide to check me out (something that did have me thinking my time was up ), but nothing has come close to instilling the same sense of menace and fear of my safety as one or two salties have done in the past. They just exhude power and a feeling that if they really wanted you, then that boat you are in will just be a minor inconvenience to them.

Adam Khor

Kess73 wrote: »

Oh a mugger is no pusher, but in terms of sheer size, power, and killing ability not to mention temperament it is a poor imitation of an adult saltie.

A huge Mugger croc might weight around the 1,000 lbs mark and be 15ft to 17ft.

A 2,000 lbs 17ft Saltie would be regarded as large but not exceptionally big.

The largest living male saltie, that we know of, is the one in India that the Guiness book of records accepts as the biggest and he is estimated to weigh well over 4,000 lbs and be close to 23 feet in length, and there were two 20 feet Salties caught last year, one in Northern Oz and the other in the Philippines.

Have been cage diving with Great whites bumping my cage in Oz, Africa and near the Farallon Islands, have been free swimming and had a Killer whale decide to check me out (something that did have me thinking my time was up ), but nothing has come close to instilling the same sense of menace and fear of my safety as one or two salties have done in the past. They just exhude power and a feeling that if they really wanted you, then that boat you are in will just be a minor inconvenience to them.

Haha I'm not arguing, man. I'm a huge fan of crocodiles so I know what salties are about. I also worked with crocodiles in a zoo myself; they weren´t salties but they were nasty enough for me to imagine what porosus must be like...

Birds may be dinosaurs, but no animal really gives the impression of pure Mesozoic power like crocodiles today :>