Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

robot7080

My no vote has already been submitted. Im amazed at the amount of people that have said 'sinn fein have said to vote no so im doing the opposite'... wonder what would've happened if they'd been in government all along!?

SafeSurfer

humanji wrote: »

Ah not this sh*te again. We're not standing infront of a button and being asked if we want to push it or not. We're standing in front of two buttons and being asked which one to push.

If you don't understand the question, don't answer it. It's foolish to do otherwise.

We are being asked to change the Irish constitution. Whats wrong with voting not to change it if you are unsure?

Wibbs

syklops wrote: »

tbh I'd say the opposite. Alot of the No people are people who want to give two fingers to the government, in a kind of Democratic F**k you. I would say they are more likely to be influenced by the rain.

The OAPs are much more likely to brave wind, hail and storm to vote. My decrepid auntie who can barely stir from the chair most days has been in and voted and is back already(got a text earlier).

That's my experience too. I'm surrounded by OAP's and I've already been earmarked as a taxi service . Most of them are yes voters too. They've read the blurb and seem to be more informed than many of their younger counterparts regardless of how they're voting.

Also the Yes camp are voting yes because they believe it in our best interests, not just to make a statement. Beliefs are stronger than statements.

Well to be fair many in the no camp also believe a no vote is in our best interests, but yes there's more of a protest vote on that side of the argument. For me that's a bit silly. If you have good reasons for voting No and many do, then game ball and fair play, but voting No as a two fingers to politicians and/or the EU is daft. IMHO. EDIT ditto for those voting Yes "because the Shinners/Ganley/Lefties are voting No".

I'd traditionally be a no voter on treaties*, I was dubious about a single currency across so many nations and differing economies and I've not changed my opinion on that score, no matter how often the pro Euro currency people point at other causes for current problems while avoiding like the plague even the notion that the Euro added significant fuel to the fire. Never mind the restrictions inherent in said currency in solving the current problems. EG Spain. While there are other tools their government can still use to help with reducing the spread of the situation, the single currency also reduces the tool set available to them(and others), namely and broadly devaluation and interest rate change. What it offers in exchange is the option to go to the more flush members looking for a dig out. IMHO not so great a deal for either side.

However, we are in the Euro and unless we decide to break from that, which IMHO would be beyond daft and I really don't think people realise what harsh realities would come down upon us if we did. We'd really know the meaning of the word austerity in that case. So being in the Euro, it's a better bet again IMHO to go with that flow, rather than agin it. If we don't then we reduce our options even further, hence I'm voting Yes.





*only those that seek to federalise Europe more in a certain direction. I'd have voted yes yes yes to joining the EEC if I had been around for it. I'm fully behind being part of a European co-op, not a European company so to speak.

Chucky the tree

robot7080 wrote: »

My no vote has already been submitted. Im amazed at the amount of people that have said 'sinn fein have said to vote no so im doing the opposite'... wonder what would've happened if they'd been in government all along!?

With 27% Corporation tax we'd really be up sit creek.

humanji

SafeSurfer wrote: »

We are being asked to change the Irish constitution. Whats wrong with voting not to change it if you are unsure?

And what are the consequences of not changing it? Everything doesn't stay the same. Both a yes or no vote has consequences and as Irish citizens intending to vote, it's our duty to find out as much as we can and make an informed choice either way. If you are unable or unwilling to understand the consequences then you simply shouldn't vote.

The future of this nation shouldn't be decided by a flip of a coin.

hooradiation

Deleted User wrote: »

Get down off your fcuking high horse. Didn't bother their arse? are you serious?

He's serious and right.

squod

GreenLady wrote: »

I obviously have some sort of intellectual deficit since I can't understand the relationship between whether people believe polls and whether they are accurate. You apparently equate belief and knowledge.

However, the Oireachtas did commission research into the accuracy of opinion polls in ireland and into whether they influenced voting behaviour back in 2009 and specifically around the Lisbon Treaty. The outcome can be found at http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/ - search under political opinion polls to download the pdf.

Of course the source is tainted - the Oireachtas paid for the study so it must be biased, and Professor Marsh, when I last checked, was probably the leading expert on political opinion polls in Europe and therefore obviously doesn't know as much as you do and anyway surely sold out the Fianna Fail government - but others may find it interesting

Study on bolloxology is endorsed by bolloxologists shocker. (:eek:)

Sean Gallagher has cemented his lead in the race for the presidential election, according to the latest Sunday Business Post / RED C poll, with less than a week to polling day

President Gallagher disagrees with you.

SafeSurfer

humanji wrote: »

And what are the consequences of not changing it? Everything doesn't stay the same. Both a yes or no vote has consequences and as Irish citizens intending to vote, it's our duty to find out as much as we can and make an informed choice either way. If you are unable or unwilling to understand the consequences then you simply shouldn't vote.

The future of this nation shouldn't be decided by a flip of a coin.

I would rather the fate of the nation be decided by an Irish citizen flipping a coin than by diktat from unaccountable, unelected bureaucrats.

I dont know how anyone is supposed to understand the consequences of a yes or no vote given the state of flux in Europe at the moment.

Did many voters or campaigners for a Yes vote to the single currency forsee the current crisis in our currency due to the flaws in its conception.

There will likely be serious negative consequences resulting from the Fiscal Treaty also.

It may prove to be a nice "get out of jail free card" for Germany and the other more prosperous euro members in the future. Sorry we can not put any more money into bailing out peripheral countries (including Ireland) because we are legally bound to reduce our borrowing/expenditure to x% of GDP.

So telling people not to vote if they are

unable or unwilling to understand the consequences then you simply shouldn't vote

is arrogant, condescending, foolish and would logically lead to a zero turnout, unless you happen to have a crystal ball or a secret time machine.

ArmaniJeanss

squod wrote: »

President Gallagher disagrees with you.

There was a bit of a bombshell incident between that poll 6 days before the election and the election itself.
Pollsters on the Sunday can hardly take into account that a candidate is going to commit electoral suicide live on TV on the Monday.

squod

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Pollsters on the Sunday can hardly take into account that a candidate is going to commit electoral suicide live on TV on the Monday.

He committed ''electoral suicide'' weeks before hand by admitting his allegiance to Fianna Fail. Y'know, that party who raped the place then blamed Europe? 'Member?

Stark

The Fianna Fáil thing was being revealed piece by piece for weeks coming up to the election and only seemed to make him more popular. I wouldn't be surprised if FF were back in power next election.

christmas2012

yes - 81

no - 186

cant/wont vote - 26

squod

Stark wrote: »

The Fianna Fáil thing was being revealed piece by piece for weeks coming up to the election and only seemed to make him more popular. I wouldn't be surprised if FF were back in power next election.

Jesus wept

humanji

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I would rather the fate of the nation be decided by an Irish citizen flipping a coin than by diktat from unaccountable, unelected bureaucrats.

I dont know how anyone is supposed to understand the consequences of a yes or no vote given the state of flux in Europe at the moment.

Did many voters or campaigners for a Yes vote to the single currency forsee the current crisis in our currency due to the flaws in its conception.

There will likely be serious negative consequences resulting from the Fiscal Treaty also.

It may prove to be a nice "get out of jail free card" for Germany and the other more prosperous euro members in the future. Sorry we can not put any more money into bailing out peripheral countries (including Ireland) because we are legally bound to reduce our borrowing/expenditure to x% of GDP.

So telling people not to vote if they are

unable or unwilling to understand the consequences then you simply shouldn't vote

is arrogant, condescending, foolish and would logically lead to a zero turnout, unless you happen to have a crystal ball or a secret time machine.

Ignoring the first line, which means absolutely nothing, you've completely missed the point. If you've no concept of the consequences of either vote, then why are you voting? What does it achieve? It's a complete guess. A guess which has Ireland's future riding on it.

I never said people should know exactly what will happen in the future. In fact, I'm pointing out that the assumption that a no vote keeps everything the same is misguided and shows a misunderstanding about the given consequences of the treaty.

EURATS

squod wrote: »

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Pollsters on the Sunday can hardly take into account that a candidate is going to commit electoral suicide live on TV on the Monday.

He committed ''electoral suicide'' weeks before hand by admitting his allegiance to Fianna Fail. Y'know, that party who raped the place then blamed Europe? 'Member?

I think it's more like FF groomed us, and Europe raped us.

squod

EURATS wrote: »

I think it's more like FF groomed us, and Europe raped us.

A small video which supports Joan Burton's first hand account of what happened on that night in Sept 2008. Unilateral decision made in the dead of night without consulting Europe.

I can't blame everyone in Europe. I do know that I can blame the current and previous administration, their civil servants and banker/developer mates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVXi-F6vZ-Q

EURATS

squod wrote: »

EURATS wrote: »

I think it's more like FF groomed us, and Europe raped us.

A small video which supports Joan Burton's first hand account of what happened on that night in Sept 2008. Unilateral decision made in the dead of night without consulting Europe.

I can't blame everyone in Europe. I do know that I can blame the current and previous administration, their civil servants and banker/developer mates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVXi-F6vZ-Q

They haven't scratched their årse in years without Europes permission. Officially or unofficially.

SafeSurfer

humanji wrote: »

Ignoring the first line, which means absolutely nothing, you've completely missed the point. If you've no concept of the consequences of either vote, then why are you voting? What does it achieve? It's a complete guess. A guess which has Ireland's future riding on it.

I never said people should know exactly what will happen in the future. In fact, I'm pointing out that the assumption that a no vote keeps everything the same is misguided and shows a misunderstanding about the given consequences of the treaty.

What you said was

If you are unable or unwilling to understand the consequences then you simply shouldn't vote.

My point is that the main argument of the Yes side is that rejecting the Fiscal Treaty will exclude us from ESM funds.

That is one consequence that we know of for sure. But there are other consequences from accepting or rejecting this treaty also.

When we voted in favour of joining then euro did any commentators onthe Yes or No side understand that a consequence would be that the interests rates would be at too low a level for the Irish economy and would create a property bubble and a spectacular crash?

People do grasp the consequences of their vote, but on both sides they do so in a very limited way.

The proponents of a yes vote have been expert in ignoring and avaoiding the consequences of a yes vote that will mean further large scale cuts and tax rises to meet our commitments under the treaty, exacerbated by reduced growth levels in Ireland and the wider eurozone, due to the austerity policies bloody mindedly pursued by European politicians who have for 4 years done nothing right.

But dont take my word for it. Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman believes this too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01jhlsz/Newsnight_30_05_2012/

Battered Mars Bar

Them red C polls are never right They should come to boards to get their figures, bet we'll be closer to the mark.

flyswatter

Will most likely be voting yes.

Can't trust something Sinn Féin support. They don't have a bulls notion about the economy.

SEPT 23 1989

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C14U7JYGRgA

EURATS

flyswatter wrote: »

Will most likely be voting yes.

Can't trust something Sinn Féin support. They don't have a bulls notion about the economy.

And FG/labour do? Jaysus.

flyswatter

EURATS wrote: »

And FG/labour do? Jaysus.

Sinn Féin make claims that are bs cos they know they won't get in to power.

drdeadlift

I voted no,and those that i have spoken to today voted the same.

EURATS

flyswatter wrote: »

EURATS wrote: »

And FG/labour do? Jaysus.

Sinn Féin make claims that are bs cos they know they won't get in to power.

And FG/Lab/FF make claims that are BS and they DO get voted into power.

Jaysus

flyswatter

EURATS wrote: »

And FG/Lab/FF make claims that are BS and they DO get voted into power.

Jaysus

I don't think you'll find any political party that fulfils all their claims my friend.

That's politics.

Dyr

There a judge up in the high court who couldn't give definitive decisions on some aspects surrounding this treaty, which some of our resident experts understood perfectly.

I don't know why boards is the only place that attracts such a calibre of experts

EURATS

flyswatter wrote: »

EURATS wrote: »

And FG/Lab/FF make claims that are BS and they DO get voted into power.

Jaysus

I don't think you'll find any political party that fulfils all their claims my friend.

That's politics.

They have fulfilled very little(if any) of their "claims", my friend

bbam

martin kelly. wrote: »

No more budget cuts were suffering enough.

I'm afraid you'll need to have your fingers in your ears for the next few budgets then. No matter if we vote yes or no there will be further cuts, surely you realise this?

EURATS

bbam wrote: »

martin kelly. wrote: »

No more budget cuts were suffering enough.

I'm afraid you'll need to have your fingers in your ears for the next few budgets then. No matter if we vote yes or no there will be further cuts, surely you realise this?

Hopefully some of the first cuts being to the number of politicians in the Dáil, and the ones that are left having their wages cut dramatically to a level that they deserve.