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Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

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    #1322
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    flyswatter wrote: »
    What about the big earning self employed people?

    What about them?


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    #1323
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    flyswatter wrote: »
    What about the big earning self employed people?

    It's Berties Fault!!!!!111


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    #1324
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    chunkylover4 wrote: »
    No because we already are constrained, not only by the European stability pact but also by internal legislation and government agreements. If we want to be stupid and breach the treaty we can just as we breached the stability pact, also it is generally agreed it is good to be fiscally healthy. The word healthy implies that along with all sane thought.
    Finally is your issue that it is dictated by Europe?
    Personally I don't like the growth of Europe and would like at least idealisically a no vote, so we have a greater chance of defaulting and as such are mostly shut out of bond markets. Then we would HAVE to cut our deficit to zero straight away. The problem is this hurts people to much and I have some sort of conscience.
    My problem with this treaty is that it breaches our sovereignty. If we are stupid enough to run a deficit during a boom we should be able to. That's within our right as a sovereign nation. There's been a worrying trend recently of shifting power away from democratically elected politicians to academic experts. I see this treaty as another step along that path i don't want us to go down. We should live in a domocracy not a meritocracy where democratic freedom and the soverignty of the nation state is sacrificed for economic stability.


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    #1325
    chunkylover4
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭chunkylover4


    conor1979 wrote: »
    If the Union doesnt need Greece then why have they gone to so much trouble and so much expense to bail them out? Why not just let them slide a long time ago?

    And if they dont need us then why the bailout?

    Would it be to do with the fact that we owe the ECB about €100 Billion? ( I'm open to correction on that figure)

    What I would like to know is that if we vote no and the EU decide to let us fail, how do they think that we will pay back the money? How will the French and German banks or whoever the senior bondholders from AIB and Anglo are get there money back?

    If we leave the Euro they wont.
    They can still get their money back, the country will still have revenue if not drastically decreased.
    Also Greece have defaulted and look to be on their way out, there was a fear of a loss in confidence so the European policy began to focus on creating a fire wall, Europe is now quite well insulated from Irish debt, especially Germany.


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    #1326
    flyswatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,625 ✭✭✭flyswatter


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    What about them?

    Just can't see why you have such an issue with PS workers.


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    #1327
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Fighting Irish wrote: »
    it's not their fault you're a bum

    :confused:


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    #1328
    chunkylover4
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭chunkylover4


    I probably shouldn;t reply but I'll give it a shot. Soverignty at a national level is a myth. Every decision we make if effected by someone, generally an international organisation but soverignty is also affected internally. For example by FDI and multi nationals, google the death of the nation state or something like that for further reference.


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    #1329
    chunkylover4
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭chunkylover4


    Also what is your definition of soverignty and why is it important that control over fiscal targets are included within it?


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    #1330
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    My problem with this treaty is that it breaches our sovereignty. If we are stupid enough to run a deficit during a boom we should be able to. That's within our eight as a sovereign nation.
    Not if our own stupidity results in other European countries having to put their hands in their pockets to bail us out. Then they have a legitimate interest in how we run our affairs, as we do theirs.


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    #1331
    PC CDROM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 408 ✭✭PC CDROM


    ha ha hello wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, are there any public sector workers here who voted 'no'? I'm guessing they wouldn't want to vote 'no' because they don't want to rock the boat, so to speak..
    flyswatter wrote: »
    Well, they don't want to lose their wages and I think that's fair enough.

    :(

    I know four public service people who voted no. They are very politically minded and "aware" though.

    I don't think it is fair to tar them all with whatever brushes it is you have.


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    #1332
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    catthinkin wrote: »
    No it's called doing some research making an informed choice !!! Wasn't scared into it WTF ?
    The no voters seem to think that it's a vote against government cuts or lost of their pension or getting our own back on the government or something bizarre . I havent seen one clear reason why a no vote would help this country , plenty of reasons why it won't .
    The union don't need us or Greece we are not important we however desperately need their bailout money which we won't get if this isn't ratified ! Simple enough for u ????

    I don't really focus on the No sides politics because its a strange mix of hard left ideologues, SF, Euroskeptics, Libertarians, slash the Public Sector types etc. The left and SF I can understand, the slashers don't seem to cop that austerity isn't working but want to bring in a budget overnight that would need to cut or tax €16 Billion minimum.

    People talk about growth and as Merkel pointed out and it made sense, what does it mean? Ganley and Mary Lou would have very, very different ideas on how to get growth. Calling to renegotiate makes no sense to me, budgets need to be put under control and people are having enough difficulty grasping this Treaty without adding stuff on Growth into it, that's just another area for the hard left and hard right to oppose it!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #1333
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    dvpower wrote: »
    Not if our own stupidity results in other European countries having to put their hands in their pockets to bail us out. Then they have a legitimate interest in how we run our affairs, as we do theirs.

    They bailed us out to get their own money back because their banks were our senior bondholders!


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    #1334
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    flyswatter wrote: »
    Just can't see why you have such an issue with PS workers.

    Not all, I said.
    But take government advisors, do you think it's right that some of them get the equivalent of the average industrial wage as a pay rise? That's the type of **** I'm getting at.


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    #1335
    conor1979
    Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭conor1979


    chunkylover4 wrote: »
    They can still get their money back, the country will still have revenue if not drastically decreased.
    Also Greece have defaulted and look to be on their way out, there was a fear of a loss in confidence so the European policy began to focus on creating a fire wall, Europe is now quite well insulated from Irish debt, especially Germany.


    How long would it take them to get it back if we went back to the punt and it was devalued?

    Surely its in their best interests if we stay in the Euro?

    I feel its like throwing good money at bad. How long can we keep borrowing €10-15 billion a year before we say stop?

    Surely it would be better to bite the bullet now and get the pain over and done with?


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    #1336
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    :confused:

    a dumb bum


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    #1337
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    smash wrote: »
    They bailed us out to get their own money back because their banks were our senior bondholders!
    Even that simplistic analysis illustrates the legitimate interest countries that are financially interconnected have in ensuring that others aren't behaving recklessly.


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    #1338
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Fighting Irish wrote: »
    a dumb bum

    Have you anything to add to this thread apart from 2 or 3 word insulting posts?


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    #1339
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    chunkylover4 wrote: »
    I probably shouldn;t reply but I'll give it a shot. Soverignty at a national level is a myth. Every decision we make if effected by someone, generally an international organisation but soverignty is also affected internally. For example by FDI and multi nationals, google the death of the nation state or something like that for further reference.
    seriously use the quote button, it's hard to find your posts.

    All of our decisions are affected by multinational organisations? Sounds a bit like a conspirancy theory. All of the bretton woods institutions and their derivatives respect national soverignty. The IMF would never dare tell us what to do with our corp tax like Merkozy has done.


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    #1340
    flyswatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,625 ✭✭✭flyswatter


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Not all, I said.
    But take government advisors, do you think it's right that some of them get the equivalent of the average industrial wage as a pay rise? That's the type of **** I'm getting at.

    You say not all but you were going on about teachers earlier who are average public sector workers.

    No, I don't really agree with the advisors getting that sort of money.


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    #1341
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Fromthetrees wrote: »
    Vote yes for security and more market stability, a yes vote is the only way we can gain access to the ESM if we require a second bail out.... :)
    What do you mean "if", you surely mean "when".
    Can't vote cos i am English but deffo would be up for the yes camp. Ireland needs Europe and the governments of Ireland need to be guided by Europe as they certainly cant be trusted to manage their own affairs.


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    #1342
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dvpower wrote: »
    Not if our own stupidity results in other European countries having to put their hands in their pockets to bail us out. Then they have a legitimate interest in how we run our affairs, as we do theirs.
    If we had've followed the rules of capitalism from the start and let our banks fall we would never be in this situation in the first place. Similarly we would have let Greece fall, setting it a drift if needs be.


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    #1343
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    dvpower wrote: »
    Even that simplistic analysis illustrates the legitimate interest countries that are financially interconnected have in ensuring that others aren't behaving recklessly.
    The problem is that the responsibility is not being shared. We got screwed for their sake and it was allowed to happen, now we'll continue to be screwed for years and measures are to be put in place to keep it that way. Meanwhile, they got their cash! They're like Brendan Grace's character in Fr.Ted....


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    #1344
    chunkylover4
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭chunkylover4


    conor1979 wrote: »
    How long would it take them to get it back if we went back to the punt and it was devalued?

    Surely its in their best interests if we stay in the Euro?

    I feel its like throwing good money at bad. How long can we keep borrowing €10-15 billion a year before we say stop?

    Surely it would be better to bite the bullet now and get the pain over and done with?

    I actually agree that there is a chacne (very small) of default however there are different types of default and as such we should be in the best position possible if we do so now we will be shut out of markets and will have to immediatly cut our deficit to zero simply because there will be no cash. Also if the banks aren;t refinanced fully they will fail.


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    #1345
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    flyswatter wrote: »
    You say not all but you were going on about teachers earlier who are average public sector workers.

    No, I don't really agree with the advisors getting that sort of money.

    Not all teachers are 'average' PS workers on average PS wages.


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    #1346
    catthinkin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭catthinkin


    smash wrote: »
    catthinkin wrote: »
    The union don't need us or Greece we are not important we however desperately need their bailout money which we won't get if this isn't ratified ! Simple enough for u ????

    This confuses me because we already got money and we're currently paying back, and we're also tied into an agreement to receive more money over the next few years.

    What scares me about it going through is a loss of power for the Irish government regarding our finances.

    We won't get any more money unless the treaty is ratified and it's terms and conditions are met .
    Our governments handling of their fiscal responsibility in the last five years have lead to their lost of power , a no vote won't change our near bankrupt status only make it more expensive for us to borrow the money we now need.

    As for us leaving the union would mean we wouldn't have to pay back what we owe ??? You having a laugh ?? What we going to do hide behind Iceland when they come knocking for the repayments ?

    Sorry on my phone can't multi quote


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    #1347
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The IMF would never dare tell us what to do with our corp tax like Merkozy has done.
    1. Our corporation tax is at the rate we decided to set it at. The French and others may like to see it otherwise, but they don;t and can't tell us what to do with it.
    2. Have you read the bailout MOU containing all of the things that the IMF are telling us to do?


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    #1348
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    smash wrote: »
    They bailed us out to get their own money back because their banks were our senior bondholders!

    The UK and US have been mysteriously whitewashed out of history with this narrative.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #1349
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,069 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    catthinkin wrote: »
    a no vote won't change our near bankrupt status only make it more expensive for us to borrow the money we now need.

    Can you expand on this? Are you saying that our current bailout will be more expensive if the treaty isn't ratified?


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    #1350
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    catthinkin wrote: »
    As for us leaving the union would mean we wouldn't have to pay back what we owe ??? You having a laugh ?? What we going to do hide behind Iceland when they come knocking for the repayments ?

    Eh, I never said anything about leaving the union.


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    #1351
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    If we had've followed the rules of capitalism from the start and let our banks fall we would never be in this situation in the first place. Similarly we would have let Greece fall, setting it a drift if needs be.
    I shudder to think where we would be if we followed the rules of capitalism and let our banks fail.
    Would we be burning depositors under these rules?


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