Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

chunkylover4

yes, yes we would.

catthinkin

My name is URL wrote: »

catthinkin wrote: »

a no vote won't change our near bankrupt status only make it more expensive for us to borrow the money we now need.

Can you expand on this? Are you saying that our current bailout will be more expensive if the treaty isn't ratified?

We won't get any more money under the current terms of lending if it isn't ratified .

conor1979

catthinkin wrote: »

As for us leaving the union would mean we wouldn't have to pay back what we owe ??? You having a laugh ?? What we going to do hide behind Iceland when they come knocking for the repayments ?

Sorry on my phone can't multi quote

There is a difference between not having to pay it back and not being able to pay it back.:cool:

PC CDROM

This is the reality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsmVjulsbac

gerryo777

catthinkin wrote: »

We won't get any more money under the current terms of lending if it isn't ratified .

Is that a fact?

Iwasfrozen

dvpower wrote: »

1. Our corporation tax is at the rate we decided to set it at. The French and others may like to see it otherwise, but they don;t and can't tell us what to do with it.
2. Have you read the bailout MOU containing all of the things that the IMF are telling us to do?

1. The fact they are expressing an opinion publically on the matter is a direct and unacceptable breach of our national sovereignty. But we've become so used to foreign interference in this country in the guise of the EU that we accept it.
2. The IMF does not tell governments what taxes to raise or benifites to cut. They respect the sovereignty of the nation they opperate in and only demand their money be repaid in time. How that money is raised is inconsequential to them.

smash

catthinkin wrote: »

We won't get any more money under the current terms of lending if it isn't ratified .

Where did you hear that? The current terms were set well before this treaty proposal.

catthinkin

smash wrote: »

catthinkin wrote: »

As for us leaving the union would mean we wouldn't have to pay back what we owe ??? You having a laugh ?? What we going to do hide behind Iceland when they come knocking for the repayments ?

Eh, I never said anything about leaving the union.

Said I couldnt multi quote on my phone was aimed at the poster who suggested if we left we didn't have to pay what we owe .words fail

Battered Mars Bar

Weathercheck wrote: »

Haven't heard any good reason to vote no to the actual treaty itself. Lots of people voting no for lots of misguided and just ignorant reasons. The actual treaty is very simple. Vote no to it if you don't want budget resrtictions enforced by Europe + no involvement in ESM fund. Vote Yes if you want budget deficit restrictions + involvement in ESM. I'd take honest objections here but people aren't voting no on the basis of the treaty, which is stupid and careless.

pish posh

Fighting Irish

gerryo777 wrote: »

Have you anything to add to this thread apart from 2 or 3 word insulting posts?

what?

My name is URL

catthinkin wrote: »

We won't get any more money under the current terms of lending if it isn't ratified .

The current terms of lending naturally only cover the funds which we have already been granted. A No vote wouldn't effect those funds at all. We're already adequately meeting the terms of that agreement.

dvpower

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The fact they are expressing an opinion publically on the matter is a direct and unacceptable breach of our national sovereignty. But we've become so used to foreign interference in this country in the guise of the EU that we accept it.

Which is a different thing to telling us what to do with our corporate tax.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The IMF does not tell governments what taxes to raise or benifites to cut. They respect the sovereignty of the nation they opperate in and only demand their money be repaid in time. How that money is raised is inconsequential to them.

You must have missed the whole recent Household Charge thing. Did you read the MOU, it's full of very specifc taxation measures complete with € values for us to raise.

flyswatter

gerryo777 wrote: »

Not all teachers are 'average' PS workers on average PS wages.

Find me a teacher on the same level wage as government advisors then.

You might as well since your including them in the argument you're making here.

Iwasfrozen

dvpower wrote: »

I shudder to think where we would be if we followed the rules of capitalism and let our banks fail.
Would we be burning depositors under these rules?

We wouldn't be burning anyone. If it happened it would have been the banks that burned them not us because the government would wisely stay out of it.

catthinkin

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0529/1224316859011.html

this article written by an economist convinced me to vote yes it contains within it the reasons why if we vote no we wont be able to further borrow from the union and why this may not be a wise move

gerryo777

flyswatter wrote: »

Find me a teacher on the same level wage as government advisors then.

You might as well since your including them in the argument you're making here.

Read this.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=teacher%20pay%20in%20ireland&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CIABEBYwBg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishexaminer.com%2Fireland%2F1500-teachers-earn-up-to-115k-a-year-189895.html&ei=zvDHT7j2IYTChAft-rGUCw&usg=AFQjCNF-aUkJR8qYzquZTutgouKUiiweUA

Iwasfrozen

dvpower wrote: »

You must have missed the whole recent Household Charge thing. Did you read the MOU, it's full of very specifc taxation measures complete with € values for us to raise.

Have i read the memorandum of understanding between the IMF and Ireland? Emm nope, can't say I have dvpower and even if I had I doubt I'd be qualified to understand it. Nor I doubt you would unless you secretly have a phd in economics.

smash

catthinkin wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0529/1224316859011.html

this article written by an economist convinced me to vote yes it contains within it the reasons why if we vote no we wont be able to further borrow from the union and why this may not be a wise move

It's pretty much all speculative and very one sided. Did you not listen or watch any debates?

dvpower

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We wouldn't be burning anyone. If it happened it would have been the banks that burned them not us because the government would wisely stay out of it.

So under your preferred option, the banks would have burned its depositors and the government would just stay out of it.

Fair enough. I don't think many people would go along with that - they might just have complained a bit that the government weren't governing.

Fromthetrees

Deleted User wrote: »

What do you mean "if", you surely mean "when".
Can't vote cos i am English but deffo would be up for the yes camp. Ireland needs Europe and the governments of Ireland need to be guided by Europe as they certainly cant be trusted to manage their own affairs.

Ah the first two lines of my post I just regurgitated the main points that either camp said, in all likely hood we'll need another bailout.
I'm just going to listen to some tunes and read before I head to bed. :cool:

dvpower

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Have i read the memorandum of understanding between the IMF and Ireland? Emm nope, can't say I have dvpower and even if I had I doubt I'd be qualified to understand it. Nor I doubt you would unless you secretly have a phd in economics.

What?:eek:

Its a fairly straightforward document.

catthinkin

smash wrote: »

It's pretty much all speculative and very one sided. Did you not listen or watch any debates?

yes i did and of course it speculative no one knows what a no vote will mean to us ! there is no precendnt and that is the crux of the matter i dont believe europe needs us or greece .

the germans will probably move to a two tiered euro zone and we will be thrown in with spain and greece to rot in the relagated zone diaster long and short term .

My name is URL

catthinkin wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0529/1224316859011.html

this article written by an economist convinced me to vote yes it contains within it the reasons why if we vote no we wont be able to further borrow from the union and why this may not be a wise move

If that convinced you how to vote I can only assume that you missed Newsnight last night, where two of the world's foremost economists were in agreement that the Fiscal Compact wasn't good for Ireland, or the Eurozone.

Where To

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/05/31/uk-ireland-referendum-idUKBRE84U0C520120531?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Reuters must know something no one else does

Amirani

Where To wrote: »

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/05/31/uk-ireland-referendum-idUKBRE84U0C520120531?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Reuters must know something no one else does

I've seen similar figures from a couple of sources. Looks like it'll be passed by a healthy margin.

K-9

My name is URL wrote: »

Can you expand on this? Are you saying that our current bailout will be more expensive if the treaty isn't ratified?

I'd say it is very debatable. When our bailout runs out it looks increasingly like we'll have to get another one, though ideally for a much smaller amount. Our bond rates have come down significantly in the last year due to us meeting our targets, but that damn Euro crisis thing spikes them every so often.

So come the end of next year the EFSF, the current fund, is finished. SF and others argue we can still borrow it but why would lenders continue it? The ESM will be up and running, keeping the EFSF makes no sense. Countries would have to pay into 2 different funds and borrow on the markets for same.

So we'd have to get a new fund, the IMF aren't an option on their own, they need EU involvement. It would make no sense to charge us the same rates as the ESM, otherwise what's the point?

And what's to say the IMF don't insist the ESM is the only game in town, and that is starting to look likely with current events.

Iwasfrozen

dvpower wrote: »

So under your preferred option, the banks would have burned its depositors and the government would just stay out of it.

Fair enough. I don't think many people would go along with that - they might just have complained a bit that the government weren't governing.

Exactly, sure some people would complain and rightly so their savings have been wiped out. Butafter this big disaster the country would have grown much faster then we are now, at the moment because we protected our banks we are left in a much worse long term position.

catthinkin

My name is URL wrote: »

If that convinced you how to vote I can only assume that you missed Newsnight last night, where two of the world's foremost economists were in agreement that the Fiscal Compact wasn't good for Ireland, or the Eurozone.

i watched that debate one of those econimists was in fact a former minister of finance for greece ! wonder why he was anti the union :cool:

Iwasfrozen

dvpower wrote: »

What?:eek:

Its a fairly straightforward document.

Like most people in the country I'm busy. Forgive me if I don't make a habit of studying international documents.

dvpower

Where To wrote: »

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/05/31/uk-ireland-referendum-idUKBRE84U0C520120531?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Reuters must know something no one else does

I wonder if there were some private exit polls.

Edit: It seems there were.

https://twitter.com/#!/tconnellyRTE

Private govt exit poll suggests 60+ in favour of fiscal compact - source

Understand it was paid for by a certain political party...