Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

DEFTLEFTHAND

Full blown disaster in waiting. What the fcuk was the A.G thinking.

ilovesleep

Vote yes for jobs.

What they forget to add is that those jobs are for a select few upon the gravy train.

srsly78

Bambi wrote: »

This is not an Irish problem

Oh come on.

noddyone2

noddyone2 wrote: »

Here's one good reason to vote no - Phil Hogan.
Another: Michael Martin.
Another: Gilmore
Another: The ever-smirking Pat Rabitte
Another: Joanie Burton.

Those are terrible reasons to vote no.

People should decide how to vote based on whether or not they think ratifying the traty would be good for Ireland, not whether or not they think some politician has a smirking face.

sbsquarepants

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Full blown disaster in waiting. What the fcuk was the A.G thinking.

Probably thinking we live in a democracy.

sbsquarepants

dvpower wrote: »

We would be excluding ourselves from ESM funds if we reject the treaty as the rules stand - that much is clear.
The EU could invent a new fund just for us or find another mechanism for us to get around the rules, but it seems very unlikely. If we do need another bailout, they will most likely make us sign up to the fiscal compact as a prerequisite and get the funds from the ESM.


There would be an offer on the table from the ESM if we need another bailout. The IMF are likely to tell us to sign up to the fiscal compact and take that offer. The ESM is the bailout mechanism for almost all EU countries - the IMF are hardly likely to view it as 'throwing us to the wolves'.

That offer being - fúck what your electorate has said - do as we say?

dvpower

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That offer being - fúck what your electorate has said - do as we say?

If the electorate make a decision that we want to exclude ourselves from the bailout mechanism, then we should be excluded from getting a bailout.

K-9

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It will come from the IMF

The IMF has lent us all it can at the minute, it can't afford to lend us more, plus it would break its rules.

constitutionus

i just love the fact that shorne of all the sophistry this treaty is basically enda kenny saying "im too incompetent to be trusted to run the economy properly and YOUR too stupid to vote for someone else that will -

- PLEASE takes these sovereign powers from me and yoursleves ! "

lugha

conorhal wrote: »

I'm voting no because I refuse to cede any further soverignty to the EU.

Even if the "sovereignty" we cede is for the purpose of inhibiting reckless public spending?

conorhal wrote: »

I am also voting no because I do not want this government to have access to futher funds from the ECB, cheap ECB money has become this government's methadone replacement for the crack cocaine of cheap bank borrowing.
The problem is that the government has no intention of kicking the methedone they've been forced onto either, so clearly cold turkey is the only option available to force them to face the facts.
I want this government forced to make the hard decisions on the Croke 'Perk' Agreement, social welfare, and the bloated cost of local governement that it thinks it can avoid by picking our pockets and nibbling around the edges to maintain the status quo.

I don’t think it is solely a lack of willingness that inhibits the government reducing social welfare payments and public sector pay, though I’m sure they hardly relish such challenges.

A drastic cut in social welfare would seriously impact some. Not the ones who chose not too work during the boom but those that did work and acquired a mortgage. And now have a major problem even before any cuts.

And a drastic and immediate cut in public sector pay would surely have a knock on effect on a lot of private sector jobs. Public sector workers are surely the ones that do have some cash to spend. Take it away and there is sure to be an impact on those working in the retail / hospitality etc. industries. Not to mention of course the impact of the inevitable strikes!

Which is not to say that these adjustments will have to be made. But I am none too sure that an instant adjustment I necessarily the best way to do it.

mloc

People do realise that even if we stopped paying back all foreign debt we still run a significant deficit year on year?

Maybe I'll rephrase - our government still spends far too much, much more than we take in. The "austerity" measures we have are nothing - even if our debt was forgiven tomorrow, we'd need far more cutbacks in spending to get the books balanced.

Personal dislike of politicians as a reason to vote against a proposed treaty is no better than personal like of politicians as a reason to vote for them - typical Irish lack of ability to think on a national level.

Dyr

lugha wrote: »

Even if the "sovereignty" we cede is for the purpose of inhibiting reckless public spending?

No need to put sovereignty in brackets, this will affect our sovereignty. Some people are really big on the idea of taking sovereignty away from the electorate.

What you can do is put "inhibit reckless public spending" in brackets and then search the fiscal treaty for that term and report back.

DeVore

If you want to hear three of the top names talk about, they are on in 15 minutes.
see here: www.stephendonnelly.ie

If you want to ask questions post (or just thank!) them here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056612601

lugha

Bambi wrote: »

Some people are really big on the idea of taking sovereignty away from the electorate.

If sovereignty was real concern for the people they would have had to truck with the EU, or EEC as it was as a young thing, and they have had plenty of referenda opportunities over the years where they might have expressed their misgivings about their lost sovereignty. But they didn’t.

Bambi wrote: »

What you can do is put "inhibit reckless public spending" in brackets and then search the fiscal treaty for that term and report back.

Its right there on the second page. . It is a tad more diplomatic in language referring as it does to “ …the need for governments to maintain sound and sustainable public finances and to prevent a general government deficit becoming excessive …”
But guess what word beginning with S is not mentioned anywhere? :PAC:

There may be an argument that there may be times when such any automatic rule to control public finances does not serve us well and hence we might be better not to put undue restraints on ourselves. But to bemoan our diminishing sovereignty? Nah!

Bubblefett

Genuine question- (i'm watching the webcast now).
They just said if we say yes to the treaty and get access to the ESM we will be able to pay off all our depts.
But will we then not have a dept to pay back to the ESM? like paying off smaller loans by getting a bigger loan? And does the EU dictate when we pay back the money?

I'm just trying to get a better idea of things here, haven't made up my mind how I'm voting yet

Unknown Soldier

Is it true that for the greater good, that is the fiscal treaty we are about to vote on, that they will be able through the Euro courts, be able to dissolve tracker mortgages for the greater good for the country, Ireland and therefore Europe?

Mr Benevolent

Everyone will lose their tracker mortgage anyway. Count on it.

Unknown Soldier

Confab wrote: »

Everyone will lose their tracker mortgage anyway. Count on it.

Thats what I heard. You vote "Yes" Goodbye tracker mortgage....

galwayrush

The sky will fall as well..

davet82

i also heard you get cooties if you vote yes too

MickySticks

I don't know what a tracker mortgage is.

cml387

Also I heard if you vote yes Europe will take your first-born.

Or your XBOX.

phasers

would a breach of contract like that not void the mortgage?

Unknown Soldier

phasers wrote: »

would a breach of contract like that not void the mortgage?

Not if we give up the rights to them.... pass them on to the higher Euro courts who have the best interests at heart.


Takes a few years.

mikemac1

Vote yes for jobs

dvpower

Unknown Soldier wrote: »

Thats what I heard. You vote "Yes" Goodbye tracker mortgage....

Admit it - you're just making this up, aren't you?

Mr Benevolent

mikemac1 wrote: »

Vote yes for jobs

Vote No for jobs. One of us will be right.

hawkelady

Im fairly sure Im going to vote no because I hate Phil Hogan so much!!
I know its fickle but Im sure I will sleep soundly after I do it..

phasers

technically if we vote no the people who work at the polling places get an extra day's work when they make us vote again, so vote no for jobs!

Unknown Soldier

Unknown Soldier wrote: »

Is it true that for the greater good, that is the fiscal treaty we are about to vote on, that they will be able through the Euro courts, be able to dissolve tracker mortgages for the greater good for the country, Ireland and therefore Europe?

First time I've heard of that, but the Fiscal Compact as far as I can understand it writes into the constitution that ECB rules must be obeyed without question etc
(say that in a Bavarian accent!:P)

If the ECB wants to ban trackers, then it's goodbye trackers!