Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

westendgirlie

dvpower wrote: »

There isn't anything in your mortgage contract that allows anyone to change it willy nilly.

OP is just scaremongering people into rejecting the treaty by raising false doubts based on nothing at all. And suceeding.

I still don't understand what the treaty is about though No literature has landed on my doorstep yet and guaranteed when it does, it will be crammed with legal jargon. So, the wise decision would be to vote NO to it until such time as I understand it more and then vote no/yes accordingly.

melekalikimaka

westendgirlie wrote: »

I still don't understand what the treaty is about though No literature has landed on my doorstep yet and guaranteed when it does, it will be crammed with legal jargon. So, the wise decision would be to vote NO to it until such time as I understand it more and then vote no/yes accordingly.

if you're too lazy or ignorant to look into it, don't vote. an ignorant vote is the worst type of vote. its not wise, its utter stupidity of the highest order voting no because you 'don't understand' what you are voting for, i take it you were one of the lisbon no voters first time round too?

juan.kerr

If my tracker is taken from me I would have difficulty justifying making further payments on that mortgage.

I wonder would I get over 2 years rent free like the Kelly couple.

westendgirlie

melekalikimaka wrote: »

if you're too lazy or ignorant to look into it, don't vote. an ignorant vote is the worst type of vote. its not wise, its utter stupidity of the highest order voting no because you 'don't understand' what you are voting for, i take it you were one of the lisbon no voters first time round too?

Not lazy nor ignorant. Typed "fiscal treaty" into the ol' google machine. There was no link to the governments website. Perhaps I am blind :cool:

Is it unreasonable to ask that the powers that be provide me with information? Also, bear in mind that many citizens still do not use the internet.

melekalikimaka

westendgirlie wrote: »

Not lazy nor ignorant. Typed "fiscal treaty" into the ol' google machine. There was no link to the governments website. Perhaps I am blind :cool:

Is it unreasonable to ask that the powers that be provide me with information? Also, bear in mind that many citizens still do not use the internet.

if you feel the need to vote on it, find out about it, your not obliged to vote, leave voting to people who understand what they are voting for, why would you vote no, because you dont understand it? if you learnt about it and realised you wanted to vote yes and say in theory a no vote would lead to negative implications for yourself, you'd feel pretty stupid.

mbur

The mortgage agreement binds you because you are a real person. The situation with the lender is a little more complex. As long as the bank is solvent they are locked in.

The law generally doesn't allow retrospective changes to contracts. So the big hurdle to be overcome to rob you of your tracker is to legally dispose of the bank. When this is done you will be put in a situation where you either pay up or take an alternative offer. Thats why there is talk of all trackers being transferred to IBRC.

I don't see the direct connection to the poll but I'm sure the fiscal compact will give the banks/governments a few more mirrors and a little more smoke to hide behind when they come after ya.

westendgirlie

Aims of the Fiscal Treaty
The aims of the Treaty are

to strengthen Economic and Monetary Union by agreeing a set of rules on budgetary discipline; (this set of rules is sometimes called the “fiscal compact”);
to strengthen the co-ordination of economic policies within the EU; and
to improve the governance of the euro area.

Would someone link me to the actual rules?

Mance Rayder

I don't know where RTE gets off saying that polls show the yes side leading. I have NEVER been polled. Where do these polls take place? None of my family or anyone I know for that matter have been asked how they will vote by pollers.

In addition, I know of no one who will vote yes. Not in my college, my family or friends.
I believe there is some "Agitpro" going on here. (Soviet style propaganda).

Clearly the Irish government believe we are thicks. I hope everyone here that's going to vote READS THE TREATY before doing so.

Stark

CiscoStudent wrote: »

I don't know where RTE gets off saying that polls show the yes side leading. I have NEVER been polled. Where do these polls take place? None of my family or anyone I know for that matter have been asked how they will vote by pollers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_%28statistics%29

dvpower

westendgirlie wrote: »

Not lazy nor ignorant. Typed "fiscal treaty" into the ol' google machine. There was no link to the governments website. Perhaps I am blind :cool:

Is it unreasonable to ask that the powers that be provide me with information? Also, bear in mind that many citizens still do not use the internet.

There was a good summary posted in Politics

www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78233433&postcount=62

Mance Rayder

Stark wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_%28statistics%29

In pursuit of wit you seemed to have missed the point. I am suggesting that the polls are skewed in favour of the yes side.

How so? By not taking polls in certain areas that are on the lower end of the socio-economic scale. Thus my accusation of Soviet style propaganda.:pac:

tonycascarino

CiscoStudent wrote: »

I don't know where RTE gets off saying that polls show the yes side leading. I have NEVER been polled. Where do these polls take place? None of my family or anyone I know for that matter have been asked how they will vote by pollers.
.

It is clearly propaganda used in an attempt to influence people to vote the way they want

humanji

CiscoStudent wrote: »

I don't know where RTE gets off saying that polls show the yes side leading. I have NEVER been polled. Where do these polls take place? None of my family or anyone I know for that matter have been asked how they will vote by pollers.

In addition, I know of no one who will vote yes. Not in my college, my family or friends.
I believe there is some "Agitpro" going on here. (Soviet style propaganda).

Clearly the Irish government believe we are thicks. I hope everyone here that's going to vote READS THE TREATY before doing so.

Well I don't know anyone who's said that they're voting no. In fact, of all those I've asked, I'm the only one who isn't even sure. There's more people in Ireland than your friends and family.

Mance Rayder

tonycascarino wrote: »

It is clearly propaganda used in an attempt to influence people to vote the way they want

Exactly. Just like in the weeks leading up to the household charge deadline. RTE's first headline each day, "Household charge will be paid on time" "Government believe everyone will pay" "major surge in household charge registration" etc etc. In the end only a fraction of the people registered.

You could be forgiven for thinking nothing else happened in this country looking at the news. The Government is using RTE as a mouthpeice for it's agenda. It's blatent. They are not even good at propaganda FFS, it's like when a child is tryin to tell a lie, it's bloody obvious.

Is Ireland really this dumb? Please say it ain't so!

Mance Rayder

humanji wrote: »

Well I don't know anyone who's said that they're voting no. In fact, of all those I've asked, I'm the only one who isn't even sure. There's more people in Ireland than your friends and family.

Well assuming we are from two different classes of the socio-economic scale, that would make sense. Not many Northside students or jobseekers are gonna vote yes I can tell you that.

K-9

Maybe the party political polls are rigged too!

The polls track changes, they picked up on the swing to the No vote in the first Lisbon vote. The second one the same,pretty accurate, though apparently it was rigged, only seems rigged when it doesn't say No!

Mance Rayder

K-9 wrote: »

Maybe the party political polls are rigged too!

The polls track changes, they picked up on the swing to the No vote in the first Lisbon vote. The second one the same,pretty accurate, though apparently it was rigged, only seems rigged when it doesn't say No!

I am still undecided to be honest. I just don't believe these polls represent a true segment of our society. Maybe they did during the Lisbon campaigns but remember; there are different people in charge now then there were then.

I want to vote no but only if that achieves us pulling out of the Euro. Otherwise I will vote yes "In for a penny in for a pound" and all that.

I would prefer if Ireland left the Euro currency but if we are gonna stay on board then we might aswell go all out and ratify the damned treaty.

There is no point being half arsed either way.

K-9

CiscoStudent wrote: »

I am still undecided to be honest. I just don't believe these polls represent a true segment of our society. Maybe they did during the Lisbon campaigns but remember; there are different people in charge now then there were then.

I want to vote no but only if that achieves us pulling out of the Euro. Otherwise I will vote yes "In for a penny in for a pound" and all that.

I would prefer if Ireland left the Euro currency but if we are gonna stay on board then we might aswell go all out and ratify the damned treaty.

There is no point being half arsed either way.

The important thing in the polls right now is the don't know vote, the yes and no sides at this stage would be die hard supporters on either side.

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

The important thing in the polls right now is the don't know vote, the yes and no sides at this stage would be die hard supporters on either side.

It would probably be more correct to say "supporters of people who have stated that they support or reject the treaty" rather than have a personal understanding of the issue and have made a decision based on their analysis!

So far, there has been little publicity by either camp, apart from vote Yes or No without giving any real background as to why you should vote the way they want you to.

battle_hardend

im voting NO , ive voted yes to every single treaty presented to us up to now but im uncomfortable with the way things have progressed of late in europe and im not simply refering to austerity , besides , voting no wont make any real difference anyway , germany is intent on forcing through whatever they feel needs to be done regardless

Zen65

melekalikimaka wrote: »

an ignorant vote is the worst type of vote. its not wise, its utter stupidity of the highest order voting no because you 'don't understand' what you are voting for, .............

Many people in this country vote to oppose change when they don't understand the change, it has always been so. We knew FF were a corrupt government but we voted to keep them in power because we feared that the dream would end if somebody else entered power and stopped the relentless spending. Our country was ruined by our bankers, our politicians, our developers and by ourselves because we voted en masse to preserve the corrupt and inept government that were leading us to ruin.

As for this treaty, it amounts to a storm in a teacup as far as I can see. There is little in it of any substance, but it would appear that by implementing it the spiralling decline of the euro might be slowed or even halted. This is simply because investors, who are in general no wiser than the average Joe & Josephine will see the treaty as a coordinated budgetary approach by the euro-zone member states.

As for your tracker mortgages, stick with them. If you fall into arrears the banks will do everything in their power to revert to a variable rate, regardless of whether the Fiscal Pact is signed or not. It's best to focus on the big risks in life, not the obscure little ones!


Z

K_1

Why does the After Hours referendum ''mega thread'' not have an impartial OP and Poll?

SafeSurfer

CiscoStudent wrote: »

I want to vote no but only if that achieves us pulling out of the Euro. Otherwise I will vote yes "In for a penny in for a pound" and all that.

I like your logic.

The_Thing

Whenever the blue-shirts\liars want you to vote Yes, vote No, if they want you to vote No, vote Yes.

Fcuk 'em.

K-9

Deleted User wrote: »

It would probably be more correct to say "supporters of people who have stated that they support or reject the treaty" rather than have a personal understanding of the issue and have made a decision based on their analysis!

So far, there has been little publicity by either camp, apart from vote Yes or No without giving any real background as to why you should vote the way they want you to.

.Not much more than a month to go. It's starting to make Cowen look prepared.

Having said that, it's an 11 page document, this isn't Lisbon. I don't really know what the electorate expects from a complicated international treaty.

Zen65 wrote: »

Many people in this country vote to oppose change when they don't understand the change, it has always been so. We knew FF were a corrupt government but we voted to keep them in power because we feared that the dream would end if somebody else entered power and stopped the relentless spending. Our country was ruined by our bankers, our politicians, our developers and by ourselves because we voted en masse to preserve the corrupt and inept government that were leading us to ruin.

As for this treaty, it amounts to a storm in a teacup as far as I can see. There is little in it of any substance, but it would appear that by implementing it the spiralling decline of the euro might be slowed or even halted. This is simply because investors, who are in general no wiser than the average Joe & Josephine will see the treaty as a coordinated budgetary approach by the euro-zone member states.

As for your tracker mortgages, stick with them. If you fall into arrears the banks will do everything in their power to revert to a variable rate, regardless of whether the Fiscal Pact is signed or not. It's best to focus on the big risks in life, not the obscure little ones!


Z

The problem is markets don't see much addressing the current problems. Future problems maybe but even that is debatable, as apparently Ireland strictly adhered the existing fiscal constraints, until the sh*t hit the fan.

mbur

K_1 wrote: »

Why does the After Hours referendum ''mega thread'' not have an impartial OP and Poll?

Why? why not? It just does so deal with it.

emo72

K-9 wrote: »

The important thing in the polls right now is the don't know vote, the yes and no sides at this stage would be die hard supporters on either side.

yea but.....even if all the dont knows decide to vote yes (and thats probably not going to happen) they still do not come close to the no vote.

if this follows the same voting pattern as the property tax vote, well then i expect it to stay much the same.

i would me massively surprised if this treaty gets passed.

K-9

emo72 wrote: »

yea but.....even if all the dont knows decide to vote yes (and thats probably not going to happen) they still do not come close to the no vote.

if this follows the same voting pattern as the property tax vote, well then i expect it to stay much the same.

i would me massively surprised if this treaty gets passed.

Where is the No vote ahead? I thought the Yes vote was ahead hence the moaning about fixes etc.

dvpower

emo72 wrote: »

yea but.....even if all the dont knows decide to vote yes (and thats probably not going to happen) they still do not come close to the no vote.

if this follows the same voting pattern as the property tax vote, well then i expect it to stay much the same.

i would me massively surprised if this treaty gets passed.

The Yes side have been ahead of the No vote in all the real polls I've seen.

Are you using online polls like the Boards poll as a basis for your figures?

blowtorch

The www.stabilitytreaty.ie seems a total scam. Where they have a link to 'The Treaty In Full', it's not the actual full text of the treaty - in fact it seems to be a re-written-by-Kenny smmmary of the treaty, leaving out the parts that might cause him problems.
The full treaty is at http://www.european-council.europa.eu/media/582311/05-tesm2.en12.pdf.

I'm confused.........
In the EU version of the treaty (link above) there are '48 articles'
In the FG version (downloadable Word doc), there are only 16 'articles'. See the attached
screenshot that I took of the 'Properties' of that Word Doc.
So, rather than giving us the 'Full Fiscal Treaty', FG have actually bastardized it to their own ends?

That would then explain, in the Fine Gael (Office of the Taoiseach) disclaimer on their website 'While every effort is made in preparing material for publication no responsibility is accepted by or on behalf of the State for any errors, omissions or misleading statements on these pages or any site to which these pages connect. '

Article 9, Subsection 3. 'ESM Members hereby irrevocably and unconditionally undertake to pay on demand any capital call made on them by the Managing Director pursuant to this paragraph, such demand to be paid within seven days of receipt.'

Article 32 Subsection 3. 4 and 5. Yeah, sure.