Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

blowtorch

Screenshot of the 'properties' of FineGaels Department of the Taoiseach Word document. Aaah that didn't work. Try again

blowtorch

blowtorch wrote: »

Screenshot of the 'properties' of FineGaels Department of the Taoiseach Word document. Aaah that didn't work. Try again..

.........

dvpower

blowtorch wrote: »

The www.stabilitytreaty.ie seems a total scam. Where they have a link to 'The Treaty In Full', it's not the actual full text of the treaty - in fact it seems to be a re-written-by-Kenny smmmary of the treaty, leaving out the parts that might cause him problems.
The full treaty is at http://www.european-council.europa.eu/media/582311/05-tesm2.en12.pdf.

I'm confused.........
In the EU version of the treaty (link above) there are '48 articles'
In the FG version (downloadable Word doc), there are only 16 'articles'. See the attached
screenshot that I took of the 'Properties' of that Word Doc.
So, rather than giving us the 'Full Fiscal Treaty', FG have actually bastardized it to their own ends?

That would then explain, in the Fine Gael (Office of the Taoiseach) disclaimer on their website 'While every effort is made in preparing material for publication no responsibility is accepted by or on behalf of the State for any errors, omissions or misleading statements on these pages or any site to which these pages connect. '

Article 9, Subsection 3. 'ESM Members hereby irrevocably and unconditionally undertake to pay on demand any capital call made on them by the Managing Director pursuant to this paragraph, such demand to be paid within seven days of receipt.'

Article 32 Subsection 3. 4 and 5. Yeah, sure.

Are you quite sure?

Here is the text of the treaty from the Irish Times.
http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/fiscal-compact/index.pdf

Here is the text of the treaty on the EU website.
http://european-council.europa.eu/media/639235/st00tscg26_en12.pdf

These are the same as the text of the treaty on the stabiltytreaty website.

Can you explain how FG managed to hack into both the Irish Times and the EU websites and place their 'bastardized' copy on both of those sites?

blowtorch

dvpower wrote: »

Are you quite sure?

Here is the text of the treaty from the Irish Times.
http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/fiscal-compact/index.pdf

Here is the text of the treaty on the EU website.
http://european-council.europa.eu/media/639235/st00tscg26_en12.pdf

These are the same as the text of the treaty on the stabiltytreaty website.

Can you explain how FG managed to hack into both the Irish Times and the EU websites and place their 'bastardized' copy on both of those sites?

In the EU version of the treaty (link above) there are '48 articles'
In the FG version (downloadable Word doc), there are only 16 'articles'. See the attached
screenshot that I took of the 'Properties' of that Word Doc.

So - how is it that on the EU website, there's 48 articles, and on the FG site (stabilitytreaty.ie) there's only 16?

Or, 'There are then 16 Articles which make up the Treaty’s main provisions.' as FG inform us at http://www.stabilitytreaty.ie/index.php/en/about_the_treaty/introduction/ - that's FG's opinion. If there's 48 articles, I would think that all of them are 'main' provisions. Or does the remaining 32 articles not mater... have a read of them

dvpower

blowtorch wrote: »

In the EU version of the treaty (link above) there are '48 articles'
In the FG version (downloadable Word doc), there are only 16 'articles'. See the attached
screenshot that I took of the 'Properties' of that Word Doc.

So - how is it that on the EU website, there's 48 articles, and on the FG site (stabilitytreaty.ie) there's only 16?

On the stabilitytreaty.ie website there are 16 articles
On the Irish Times Website there are 16 articles
On the EU website there are 16 articles.
The full treaty according to the Telegraph newspaper has 16 articles.
The full text of the treaty on wikisource has 16 articles.


Did FG hack into all of these websites?

blowtorch

dvpower wrote: »

On the stabilitytreaty.ie website there are 16 articles
On the Irish Times Website there are 16 articles
On the EU website there are 16 articles.
The full treaty according to the Telegraph newspaper has 16 articles.
The full text of the treaty on wikisource has 16 articles.


Did FG hack into all of these websites?

The FULL treaty is at http://www.european-council.europa.eu/media/582311/05-tesm2.en12.pdf

48 articles in the treaty - click that link, and tell me how many articles are on it 48 or 16?

dvpower

blowtorch wrote: »

The FULL treaty is at http://www.european-council.europa.eu/media/582311/05-tesm2.en12.pdf

48 articles in the treaty - click that link, and tell me how many articles are on it 48 or 16?

One is the treaty establishing the ESM ("TREATY ESTABLISHING THE EUROPEAN STABILITY MECHANISM"). 48 articles

The other is the "TREATY ON STABILITY, COORDINATION AND GOVERNANCE IN THE ECONOMIC AND MONETARY UNION" - the fiscal compact.
That is the treaty that we are voting on. 16 articles

blowtorch

dvpower wrote: »

One is the treaty establishing the ESM ("TREATY ESTABLISHING THE EUROPEAN STABILITY MECHANISM"). 48 articles

The other is the "TREATY ON STABILITY, COORDINATION AND GOVERNANCE IN THE ECONOMIC AND MONETARY UNION" - the fiscal compact.
That is the treaty that we are voting on. 16 articles

My mistake. You're quite right. But on reading it, it seems to relate to the ESM Treaty. If we decide 'no' then are we still subject to the ESM?

dvpower

blowtorch wrote: »

My mistake. You're quite right. But on reading it, it seems to relate to the ESM Treaty. If we decide 'no' then are we still subject to the ESM?

We won't have access to funds from it. I don't know if we still need to pay into it - I doubt it.

Biggins

Lemme get this right... I maybe reading this news report wrong - someone correct me if I am - but it looks like Enda Kenny wants us in Ireland to vote for something right now, only so that he can then change or arrange to get it changed later, to suit any possible banking buddies at a later date?

...And he knows exactly what changes he wants but is neglecting to mention them or be up-front with the public previously, publicly before the people of Ireland vote on the latest referendum! After all as Enda might be thinking, what would happen if the public found out that he was taking care of the banks once again!

You seriously couldn't make this stuff up!

Short version: Enda Kenny wants Eu Fiscal Compact treaty amended - but not until AFTER we vote on it! - We'll be voting on a different treaty then.

K-9

Biggins wrote: »

Lemme get this right... I maybe reading this news report wrong - someone correct me if I am - but it looks like Enda Kenny wants us in Ireland to vote for something right now, only so that he can then change or arrange to get it changed later, to suit any possible banking buddies at a later date?

...And he knows exactly what changes he wants but is neglecting to mention them or be up-front with the public previously, publicly before the people of Ireland vote on the latest referendum! After all as Enda might be thinking, what would happen if the public found out that he was taking care of the banks once again!

You seriously couldn't make this stuff up!

Short version: Enda Kenny wants Eu Fiscal Compact treaty amended - but not until AFTER we vote on it! - We'll be voting on a different treaty then.

It seems to be a way to let banks get funding from Europe rather than directly from us, which is why the French and Germans are against it!

blowtorch

Biggins wrote: »

Lemme get this right... I maybe reading this news report wrong - someone correct me if I am - but it looks like Enda Kenny wants us in Ireland to vote for something right now, only so that he can then change or arrange to get it changed later, to suit any possible banking buddies at a later date?

...And he knows exactly what changes he wants but is neglecting to mention them or be up-front with the public previously, publicly before the people of Ireland vote on the latest referendum! After all as Enda might be thinking, what would happen if the public found out that he was taking care of the banks once again!

You seriously couldn't make this stuff up!

Short version: Enda Kenny wants Eu Fiscal Compact treaty amended - but not until AFTER we vote on it! - We'll be voting on a different treaty then.

Jeebes. Translated interview here http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=&tl=en&u=http://www.ftd.de/politik/europa/:euro-rettungsfonds-irland-will-esm-fuer-banken-oeffnen/70026222.html

What a waste of space Kenny is really.

Biggins

K-9 wrote: »

It seems to be a way to let banks get funding from Europe rather than directly from us, which is why the French and Germans are against it!

I have no problem as such letting any business get help from wherever it can if it really needs it.

I do have a worry though about a party (or person) once again asking the public to vote on something - but not being upfront (before the vote) and mentioning that they themselves are not happy with it as it stands - but still they want also the public to vote it through?

You see this lack of transparency - you know, the transparency that he said there would be in the future in his first Dail speech after getting elected to power - that is letting his party and government down.
Can the public be blamed for being suspicious about what they are doing in quiet offices, behind closed doors?

ArmaniJeanss

Biggins wrote: »

Lemme get this right... I maybe reading this news report wrong - someone correct me if I am - but it looks like Enda Kenny wants us in Ireland to vote for something right now, only so that he can then change or arrange to get it changed later, to suit any possible banking buddies at a later date?

...And he knows exactly what changes he wants but is neglecting to mention them or be up-front with the public previously, publicly before the people of Ireland vote on the latest referendum! After all as Enda might be thinking, what would happen if the public found out that he was taking care of the banks once again!

You seriously couldn't make this stuff up!

Short version: Enda Kenny wants Eu Fiscal Compact treaty amended - but not until AFTER we vote on it! - We'll be voting on a different treaty then.

I think you are reading it wrong - isn't he talking about the ESM treaty in that article, not the FC treaty. We are voting on the latter?

dvpower

blowtorch wrote: »

Jeebes. Translated interview here http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=&tl=en&u=http://www.ftd.de/politik/europa/:euro-rettungsfonds-irland-will-esm-fuer-banken-oeffnen/70026222.html

What a waste of space Kenny is really.

Enda Kenny is looking for changes to the ESM treaty to allow loans to be given to banks, not changes to the TSCG (the 'fiscal compact').

Didn't we just cover this ground?

TAOISEACH ENDA KENNY has called for amendments to the European Stability Mechanism treaty, allowing the eurozone’s new permanent bailout fund to give loans directly to banks as well as member states.

dvpower

Biggins wrote: »

I have no problem as such letting any business get help from wherever it can if it really needs it.

I do have a worry though about a party (or person) once again asking the public to vote on something - but not being upfront (before the vote) and mentioning that they themselves are not happy with it as it stands - but still they want also the public to vote it through?

You see this lack of transparency - you know, the transparency that he said there would be in the future in his first Dail speech after getting elected to power - that is letting his party and government down.
Can the public be blamed for being suspicious about what they are doing in quiet offices, behind closed doors?

Complaining about a lack of transparency while obfuscating at the very same time - a good trick.

Biggins

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I think you are reading it wrong - isn't he talking about the ESM treaty in that article, not the FC treaty. We are voting on the latter?

Appreciate that clarity. Cheers.

dvpower wrote: »

Complaining about a lack of transparency while obfuscating at the very same time - a good trick.

I'm good - just not that good - and I have been quiet rightly corrected where and when I might be wrong.

paddyandy

What is the plan when there is no money left ?

srsly78

Then we all dance at the crossroads and tourists shower us with gold. Or we could export weed or something.

Mance Rayder

dvpower wrote: »

One is the treaty establishing the ESM ("TREATY ESTABLISHING THE EUROPEAN STABILITY MECHANISM"). 48 articles

The other is the "TREATY ON STABILITY, COORDINATION AND GOVERNANCE IN THE ECONOMIC AND MONETARY UNION" - the fiscal compact.
That is the treaty that we are voting on. 16 articles

Thanks for clearing that up.

IvySlayer

Just watched Six One there and Joe Roche supporting the treaty. FFS he was practically reading a script.

lividduck

I just aint voting because:

A yes vote will be claimed by Big Phil, Stickey Gilmore and Inda as patriotic support for gubberment policies, while a no vote will be claimed by the provos,ULA and Joe Higgins as support for the looney left and their wackjob policies.
I have had it up to my tits with politicans claiming my vote on one issue is a complete endorsement of their policies.

hatrickpatrick

I won't be ranting in this thread like I usually do.
All I'll say is, I want to see the entire monetary system collapse utterly into rubble, and then from the wreckage we need to build something entirely new - and I mean entirely. Something which is not based on a never ending cycle of debt interest and which does not give the ultimate power of money creation to private institutions with a vested interest in it, which conflicts with the interests of the majority of the human population.

Money is an artificial concept which human beings invented to make their lives easier when it came to trade.
The fact that we are now being controlled by something WE invented, rather than shaping it as we desire, is ludicrous.

I don't pretend to have a better idea, but we cannot accept that this is it. Humans beings have advanced so much in the last century, why is this aspect of our society still the same? It's holding us back completely. A brief example:

I have the material to build a car. I know how it's done.
You want a car.
You're willing to work for me to earn the money to buy it.

Neither of us can get what we want, because the bank has chosen not to create enough money to oil the wheels at this time. Regardless of physical reality - manpower, technical skill, physical possibility and available raw materials, this silly artificial concept constricts us and prevents us from reaching our full potential.

Let's tear this system down and build one which actually reflects facts on the ground rather than philosophical "economic theory". All that matters is available resources and demand for those resources. It makes no sense that we can have a surplus of production capacity and a surplus in desire for products, but nothing can move because the "facilitators" of this system refuse to co operate.

I'll be voting no. Anything which copperfastens this rotten system instead of taking this golden opportunity to reform it is poisonous in my view. It might save us in the short term, but how long until the next needless recession?

NO.

hatrickpatrick

paddyandy wrote: »

What is the plan when there is no money left ?

Think about my post above. It may come to nothing but please at least think about it.
The world still has the physical ability to produce goods and services, and we still have the desire for them. It's the oil in the gears which isn't working, not the gears themselves.
Time to change the oil. OR better still, dump the petrol engine entirely and get an electric car instead.

Understand the metaphor?

melekalikimaka

Zen65 wrote: »

Many people in this country vote to oppose change when they don't understand the change, it has always been so

Z

stupidity of the highest order

Richard tea

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I won't be ranting in this thread like I usually do.
All I'll say is, I want to see the entire monetary system collapse utterly into rubble, and then from the wreckage we need to build something entirely new - and I mean entirely. Something which is not based on a never ending cycle of debt interest and which does not give the ultimate power of money creation to private institutions with a vested interest in it, which conflicts with the interests of the majority of the human population.

Money is an artificial concept which human beings invented to make their lives easier when it came to trade.
The fact that we are now being controlled by something WE invented, rather than shaping it as we desire, is ludicrous.

I don't pretend to have a better idea, but we cannot accept that this is it. Humans beings have advanced so much in the last century, why is this aspect of our society still the same? It's holding us back completely. A brief example:

I have the material to build a car. I know how it's done.
You want a car.
You're willing to work for me to earn the money to buy it.

Neither of us can get what we want, because the bank has chosen not to create enough money to oil the wheels at this time. Regardless of physical reality - manpower, technical skill, physical possibility and available raw materials, this silly artificial concept constricts us and prevents us from reaching our full potential.

Let's tear this system down and build one which actually reflects facts on the ground rather than philosophical "economic theory". All that matters is available resources and demand for those resources. It makes no sense that we can have a surplus of production capacity and a surplus in desire for products, but nothing can move because the "facilitators" of this system refuse to co operate.

I'll be voting no. Anything which copperfastens this rotten system instead of taking this golden opportunity to reform it is poisonous in my view. It might save us in the short term, but how long until the next needless recession?

NO.

Well said Pat. There is not a day goes by now without an expert on the radio saying that the EU is up **** creek without a paddle. Thats it. Its end game.

Frank Black

Richard tea wrote: »

Well said Pat. There is not a day goes by now without an expert on the radio saying that the EU is up **** creek without a paddle. Thats it. Its end game.

What's the EU got to do with a monetary system?

Do you think if the EU collapsed there would be no monetary system in the former member states?

Richard tea

black francis wrote: »

What's the EU got to do with a monetary system?

Do you think if the EU collapsed there would be no monetary system in the former member states?

This fiscal treaty is more than just about the monetary system.

Frank Black

Richard tea wrote: »

This fiscal treaty is more than just about the monetary system.

Are you responding to a point?
Making a point?
Or just coming up with random statements?


Actually, never mind.

hatrickpatrick

black francis wrote: »

What's the EU got to do with a monetary system?

Do you think if the EU collapsed there would be no monetary system in the former member states?

If the euro currency collapsed, governments involved would have absolutely no choice but to go back to the drawing board and work out a new way of doing business.

Do you realize that not a single euro actually exists anywhere? The euros in your pocket were originally issued by the ECB as an interest bearing loan to a commercial bank. They are debts which are owed back with interest.
At any given time, more money is owed back to the central bank than actually exists in circulation.

It's like a game of musical chairs in which the music must keep playing 24/7 because there are never enough chairs. If for whatever reason the music stops, as it has in this case, the entire system utterly collapses in on itself and years of pointless misery arrive while those running it attempt to disentangle the mess.

It really is high time to get rid of it in my view. A treaty which puts a new battery in a computer with a failed hard drive is no good. It needs an entirely new hard drive, and one which doesn't carry the systemic fault which caused the original one to fail.

One more metaphor for you: This treaty and others like it are akin to changing the strings on a guitar with a broken neck.

We're attempting to fix the wrong problem, in other words.