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Car Sold not as described

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  • 20-04-2012 3:11pm
    #1
    Dublin25
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭


    Hi all,

    Just looking for a bit of help on this.

    I bought a car from a second hand car dealer nearly 2 wks ago. We got 3months engine and gearbox warranty and was told verbally that the car was 100% mechanically sound.
    A week later, the clutch was shuddering moving gears so to be sure I dropped it into a local garage to get checked out. My god i was shocked at the results!

    Turns out the car needs loads of work done to it, nearly the same amount that we paid for the car! Whole new clutch, water pump (which we were told was done) few other bits.
    What i find scary is that the front brake discs are badly worn on the inside, which wasn't disclosed to us. Am I right to think this car would be classed as "unroadworthy" due to the brakes?

    I went back to the garage and he isn't doing anything for us. Said clutch isn't included in warranty and bascially what did i expect when buying a "cheap" car. He's to ring me back after we just said fix the clutch (most expensive bit) and we'd deal with the rest, unsurprisingly i haven't heard back from him. No return calls and return to emails. I am not yet gone down to garage in person, this is planned for the weekend.

    I know i can try the small claims court, which we will if we get nowhere further with him. I believe we have a good case against him, despite his claims that we have no leg to stand on.

    I guess i'm asking for help with the following questions;
    1 - Can the car be defined as unroadworthy for the worn brake discs?
    2 - As from what the NCA say its an offence to sell an "unroadworthy" car, who would i report this to?
    3 - Can I report this dealer to some one for selling a car that is obviously not as sold?

    Sorry for this being long and I'd appreciate any help on it.
    (mods please move if i've posted in the wrong place!)


Comments

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    #2
    slimjimmc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,786 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    The law prohibits him selling you a dangerous car for use on a public road without first making you aware it's dangerous. Are the brake discs so badly worn they will be declared dangerous by a motor engineer?
    If so then it's an offence and you could report him to the Gardaí. I don't think it's a Revenue issue though they might show an interest in his books, and you could report him to the NCA though I'm not sure they can do much.


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    #3
    Nonoperational
    Registered Users Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭Nonoperational


    The brake discs might be worn, that doesn't mean they are dangerous, it depends how worn they are. The clutch might have been fine when he sold it to you and you just got unlucky. No cheap used car will have a warranty that covers the clutch. I would have thought the water pump would be covered under the engine and gearbox warranty. How do you know that needed to be changed? Was is overheating or loosing coolant?


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    #4
    Dymo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭Dymo


    How much was paid for the car was it a couple of hundred or a couple of thousand?


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    #5
    Dublin25
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭Dublin25


    Thanks for the replies!
    Brake discs are badly worn on the inside and brand new pads put on top. Mechanic said that the brakes need urgent attention. I will ask if he would deem them dangerous?
    Regarding the water pump, it's extremely rusty and he doesn't believe it was ever done. The dealer told me it was and when I queried it he said it was rain water that caused rust since it was replaced only 15k ago. I find this hard to understand.

    Re the price we paid about 2k for car on top of a trade in of 2k also. Wouldn't class it as cheap cheap!

    Going to ring nca in the morning, as I don't think it's fair or within my rights as a consumer to receive a car were repair work is undisclosed, car is not as described (100% mechanically sound)and he's not offering to do anything about it, 3 R's.
    I also do not want it to happen to anyone else!


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    #6
    old_aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Take it back to the person/dealer you bought the car from and make them aware of the problems.


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    #7
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Dublin25 wrote: »
    Thanks for the replies!
    Brake discs are badly worn on the inside and brand new pads put on top. Mechanic said that the brakes need urgent attention. I will ask if he would deem them dangerous?
    Regarding the water pump, it's extremely rusty and he doesn't believe it was ever done. The dealer told me it was and when I queried it he said it was rain water that caused rust since it was replaced only 15k ago. I find this hard to understand.

    Re the price we paid about 2k for car on top of a trade in of 2k also. Wouldn't class it as cheap cheap!

    Going to ring nca in the morning, as I don't think it's fair or within my rights as a consumer to receive a car were repair work is undisclosed, car is not as described (100% mechanically sound)and he's not offering to do anything about it, 3 R's.
    I also do not want it to happen to anyone else!
    The brake discs may just be scored which is not as dangerous but could affect the handling under braking, car might veer of to either side. that would be fixed by skimming the surface of the disc on a lathe to make it smoth again.

    You need to go and talk to this person and make your complaints to them in person. Let them know you are not happy with the condition of the car and that you feel it is not as described, 100% mechanically sound to me would mean you get at least 6 months before having to spend any money on things apart from a drop of oil or coolant to top up the resevoirs, it should be serviced and in good mechanical condition and not in need of any work for clutch brakes engine/coolant electrical problems, But if the car cost a few hundred euros you should not really expect it to pass the NCT.


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    #8
    wesf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭wesf


    get a solicitor, garage warranties are meaningless, you have more protection under consumer law. everyone who buys from a dealer is protected. its funny people paying extra for a warranty when they already have it for free under law!
    go back to the dealer, tell him the car is unroadworthy, you want your money back.
    if/when he refuses tell him under the sale of goods and supply of services act 1980 that you will be entitled to your money back in full, then tell him your solicitor will be in touch.
    only way to deal with these idiots.


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    #9
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    wesf wrote: »
    get a solicitor, garage warranties are meaningless, you have more protection under consumer law. everyone who buys from a dealer is protected. its funny people paying extra for a warranty when they already have it for free under law!
    go back to the dealer, tell him the car is unroadworthy, you want your money back.
    if/when he refuses tell him under the sale of goods and supply of services act 1980 that you will be entitled to your money back in full, then tell him your solicitor will be in touch.
    only way to deal with these idiots.
    Way OTT!

    Consumer rights in relation to second-hand cars are not that simple except on the point of the vehicle possibly being a danger.


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    #10
    wesf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭wesf


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    wesf wrote: »
    get a solicitor, garage warranties are meaningless, you have more protection under consumer law. everyone who buys from a dealer is protected. its funny people paying extra for a warranty when they already have it for free under law!
    go back to the dealer, tell him the car is unroadworthy, you want your money back.
    if/when he refuses tell him under the sale of goods and supply of services act 1980 that you will be entitled to your money back in full, then tell him your solicitor will be in touch.
    only way to deal with these idiots.
    Way OTT!

    Consumer rights in relation to second-hand cars are not that simple except on the point of the vehicle possibly being a danger.
    how is it over the top?! he forked out 2k plus a 2k trade in, dunno about anyone else but i don't have that sort of money to be throwing away. the vehicle was not described properly, was not of merchantable quality (brakes etc). no wonder the country is the way it is. if everyone had your attitude we'd just let the likes of that dealer off.


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    #11
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Way OTT!

    Consumer rights in relation to second-hand cars are not that simple except on the point of the vehicle possibly being a danger.
    Nonsense. A dealer selling a second-hand car must comply with the three tenets of Irish consumer law.

    The car must be:
    1. of merchantable quality (suitable to be sold)
    2. as described (if you ask a question of the dealer his answer forms part of the contract). If the car was advertised in a paper or web-site get a copy
    3. Fit for purpose (it must do the work expected of a car for a "reasonable" time - 2 weeks is not a reasonable time - 2 years might be)
    Call the NCA, get an AA or motor engineer's report on the car, put all your complaints to the dealer in writing by registered post and fax them to his office as well (keep the transmission page).

    Warranties and discussion of them are irrelevant - ignore all comments about warranties, your rights as a consumer are what's important here.


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    #12
    wesf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭wesf


    mathepac wrote: »
    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Way OTT!

    Consumer rights in relation to second-hand cars are not that simple except on the point of the vehicle possibly being a danger.
    Nonsense. A dealer selling a second-hand car must comply with the three tenets of Irish consumer law.

    The car must be:
    1. of merchantable quality (suitable to be sold)
    2. as described (if you ask a question of the dealer his answer forms part of the contract). If the car was advertised in a paper or web-site get a copy
    3. Fit for purpose (it must do the work expected of a car for a "reasonable" time - 2 weeks is not a reasonable time - 2 years might be)
    Call the NCA, get an AA or motor engineer's report on the car, put all your complaints to the dealer in writing by registered post and fax them to his office as well (keep the transmission page).

    Warranties and discussion of them are irrelevant - ignore all comments about warranties, your rights as a consumer are what's important here.
    exactly!


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    #13
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    wesf wrote: »
    exactly!
    Sorry didn't see your post. I must type faster, I must type faster ... :)
    gpf101 wrote: »
    ... No cheap used car will have a warranty that covers the clutch. I would have thought the water pump would be covered under the engine and gearbox warranty. ...
    Rubbish - see posts above.


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    #14
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    wesf wrote: »
    how is it over the top?! he forked out 2k plus a 2k trade in, dunno about anyone else but i don't have that sort of money to be throwing away. the vehicle was not described properly, was not of merchantable quality (brakes etc). no wonder the country is the way it is. if everyone had your attitude we'd just let the likes of that dealer off.
    And your response to my post is also OTT!

    First off, the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act makes some specific provision for the sale of motor vehicles - see http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/sec0013.html#sec13. Apart from the implied condition relating to danger, anything else is up for argument: there is no cut-and-dried case.

    What amounts to merchantable quality is dependent on a number of things. One has to take account of the fact that it was a used car, and that its effective price was about €4k. That's a bit different from what might be expected of a new car at, say, €20k.

    Yes, the purchaser can rely to an extent on a warranty or guarantee, and has some chance of winning an argument based on claims made prior to sale by the vendor, even if they are not written down.

    There is no unquestionable right to a refund of the money paid. The vendor might choose instead to repair the defects. Replacement is also a possible remedy, but it is improbable that the vendor can force a replacement on the purchaser when we are discussing a used car - too much difficulty in agreeing like-for-like.


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    #15
    wesf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭wesf


    mathepac wrote: »
    wesf wrote: »
    exactly!
    Sorry didn't see your post. I must type faster, I must type faster ... :)
    gpf101 wrote: »
    ... No cheap used car will have a warranty that covers the clutch. I would have thought the water pump would be covered under the engine and gearbox warranty. ...
    Rubbish - see posts above.
    not at all, i couldn't have put it better myself :D


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    #16
    Dublin25
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭Dublin25


    Thank you again for all your replies.
    I've been trying to sort it out all week with the dealer but he doesn't wanna know, says I should have excepted it when I bought a cheap car. He's avoided my calls, emails and hidden from me when I arrived at the garage. Tells me I've no leg to stand on if I wanna go the legal route, this I don't believe for a start!
    The latest is he will supply a part for the clutch but won't fit it have to do it myself and pay for it to be fitted as he's going half only.

    I see no option but to go down small claims and nca route as dealers like this shouldn't get away with selling cars in this condition and let ppl like me believe his false claims of mechanically sound cars!

    Would love to name and shame but obviously won't/can't!


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    #17
    wesf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭wesf


    definitely do not let him away with it, keep a record of all unaswered calls and unanswered messages and visits. he is totally in the wrong here.
    he lied about the condition of the car, get that report stating the unroadworthiness of the car also, if anyone hasn't a leg to stand on its him!!


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    #18
    Medicine333
    Closed Accounts Posts: 387 ✭✭Medicine333


    Dublin25 wrote: »
    Thank you again for all your replies.
    I've been trying to sort it out all week with the dealer but he doesn't wanna know, says I should have excepted it when I bought a cheap car. He's avoided my calls, emails and hidden from me when I arrived at the garage. Tells me I've no leg to stand on if I wanna go the legal route, this I don't believe for a start!
    The latest is he will supply a part for the clutch but won't fit it have to do it myself and pay for it to be fitted as he's going half only.

    I see no option but to go down small claims and nca route as dealers like this shouldn't get away with selling cars in this condition and let ppl like me believe his false claims of mechanically sound cars!

    Would love to name and shame but obviously won't/can't!

    Well I would. What he has done is unacceptable and people should be warned to steer well clear of this place!(unintended pun;))


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    #19
    mdebets
    Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭mdebets


    Dublin25 wrote: »
    I see no option but to go down small claims and nca route as dealers like this shouldn't get away with selling cars in this condition and let ppl like me believe his false claims of mechanically sound cars!

    Sorry to disappoint you but you can't go to the Small claims Court (at least if you want to go for a full refund), as the Small Claims court deals only with claims up to €2000 (see here). You could still use it, if you want to go for repairs and they are under €2000.


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    #20
    Dublin25
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭Dublin25


    mdebets wrote: »
    Dublin25 wrote: »
    I see no option but to go down small claims and nca route as dealers like this shouldn't get away with selling cars in this condition and let ppl like me believe his false claims of mechanically sound cars!

    Sorry to disappoint you but you can't go to the Small claims Court (at least if you want to go for a full refund), as the Small Claims court deals only with claims up to €2000 (see here). You could still use it, if you want to go for repairs and they are under €2000.

    Oh I know the limit and intend to go for the cost of all repairs. Should be under 2k.


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    #21
    moone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20 ✭moone


    I don't think it would be a name & shame .... just a warning to other prospect buyers. That's only fair and that's why we go in these forums: for exchange of info...etc.

    Dublin25 wrote: »
    Thank you again for all your replies.
    I've been trying to sort it out all week with the dealer but he doesn't wanna know, says I should have excepted it when I bought a cheap car. He's avoided my calls, emails and hidden from me when I arrived at the garage. Tells me I've no leg to stand on if I wanna go the legal route, this I don't believe for a start!
    The latest is he will supply a part for the clutch but won't fit it have to do it myself and pay for it to be fitted as he's going half only.

    I see no option but to go down small claims and nca route as dealers like this shouldn't get away with selling cars in this condition and let ppl like me believe his false claims of mechanically sound cars!

    Would love to name and shame but obviously won't/can't!


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    #22
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,224 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Do not name and shame, some dealers are dodgy out and real death threats aren't out of the realms of possibility.

    Court, Lawyers, Engineers, etc all cost money and take time you might not have if it's a pop up garage. Get back to the garage and stand your ground, bring a friend. He either takes back the car and gives you back the car and your money or he fixes the one you have if it is un-roadworthy but at the moment it sounds like your brake discs are on the way out and so is the clutch but neither of them have failed. If he's giving you the clutch, ask for €200 cash back to cover the costs of a mechanic to fit it, at this stage I wouldn't bother getting him to fix it no matter what he's not going to do a proper job.
    Get a hold of the owner of the garage if he's not the person your dealing with.


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    #23
    obi604
    Registered Users Posts: 5,636 ✭✭✭obi604


    Keep us updated as to how you get on


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    #24
    Dublin25
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭Dublin25


    Hi,

    I won't name, as much as i really really want to, as I'm preparing to take it further as the garage is a complete cowboy operation. Pity i didn't know this before.

    They would only supply the clutch part, won't fit it or pay to have it fitted. We took the clutch part and wrote a formal letter asking for the payment for the work to be done on the clutch. Pretty much will be a no, so its not a suitable solution for me so I believe we have a case to take it further.

    Its a family business so getting the owner of the garage is near impossible, I've tried trust me.

    Thanks again for your replies, will update you on how i get on.


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