mandatory teaching council registration

carolzoo

two references made to a new circular dated 19th April 2012 on www.education.ie circular copied and pasted below.

Bullet point 2 still allows for unqualified people to work as as substitute teacher for short term needs.

In my opinion this is up for exploitation and allows for h.dip students and relatives/friends of management to do sub work at the expense of part time contracted teachers on the staff who may not be on full hours.

I see this every day teachers in our staff room not on full hours being
by passed for the sub work. Grossly unfair on them. The majority do want this work. Everything is left unspoken as they are afraid to rock the boat in case left jobless the following year. Principals have too much power. Who are principals but civil servants too.

The teaching council need to get this sorted in schools for contracted part time teachers - that they are given first option for substitute work, (part time cid holders first preference for the sub work/classes, Second part time contracted teachers, third part time qualified substitute teachers etc etc - (if free those class periods).

I feel very sorry for the part time teachers in our staff. Every part time contracted teacher should be given the option to earn a full salary each week (if it may arise via sub work) before any one else is offerered the sub work. I think there is a circular to this effect somewhere, if not there needs to be one put in place as management are exploiting this by giving the work to relative/friends/doing turns etc etc.

T/SNA_01/2012

INFORMATION NOTE

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

REQUIREMENT TO BE REGISTERED WITH THE TEACHING COUNCIL UNDER SECTION 30 OF THE TEACHING COUNCIL ACT, 2001

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

1. Section 30 of the Teaching Council Act, 2001 provides for a requirement that teachers employed in recognised schools must be registered with the Teaching Council in order to be paid from Oireachtas funds.
2. The Education (Amendment) Bill, which has been passed by Seanad Éireann and has completed Committee Stage in Dáil Éireann, will permit the Minister for Education and Skills to provide for urgent, unforeseen and short-term needs of schools by allowing the employment of unregistered persons in the place of registered teachers in very limited circumstances. However, outside of those circumstances, the Department of Education and Skills or a Vocational Education Committee (VEC) will be prohibited by law from paying anybody employed as a teacher unless he or she is registered with the Teaching Council.
3. When enacted, the Bill will allow the Minister to commence section 30 of the Teaching Council Act. It is the intention of the Minister to commence section 30 during the 2012/2013 school year. Once commenced it will be an absolute legal requirement.

4. Outside of the limited circumstances described above, and when section 30 of the Teaching Council Act is commenced, a person employed as a teacher in a recognised school who is not registered with the Teaching Council cannot be paid by the Department or a VEC from public monies.
[/FONT][/FONT]5. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]If you are not currently registered with the Teaching Council and are employed in a primary or second level school in a permanent, CID, RPT, fixed term, non regular part-time or substitute capacity [/FONT][/FONT]you should apply to the Council for registration without delay.
6. The Teaching Council has advised the Department that completed applications for registration should be submitted without delay and preferably before 31 May 2012. This is in order to allow sufficient time for applications (including Garda Vetting) to be processed before the 2012/2013 school year.
7. The application process involves submitting an application form, together with certified copy transcripts, proof of identity, evidence of character and other documentary evidence, in addition to the application fee.
　
8. Registration is valid for 12 months from the date of registration. If registration is not renewed in time, the Council will remove the teacher from the Register and payment of the teacher will cease from the last date of registration. A teacher whose registration has lapsed may re-apply for registration at any time by completing the full application process, including Garda vetting and the submission of certified copy transcripts and other supporting documentation. Where transcripts have previously been submitted to the Council, teachers will not be required to resubmit same.
9. In addition, it should be noted that registration cannot be finalised without the completion of the Garda Vetting process. At periods of high demand, Garda vetting may take up to three months to complete.
10. The following are the current minimum processing timeframes for applications: Garda Vetting (processed by the Garda Central Vetting Unit), 4-6 weeks; Registration application (includes Garda Vetting), 8-10 weeks; and Registration applications requiring qualification assessment (includes Garda Vetting) , 10-12 weeks.
11. The Teaching Council may be contacted in relation to registration at:

www.teachingcouncil.ie
primaryregistration@teachingcouncil.ie

postprimaryregistration@teachingcouncil.ie

Dalton Tattan Padraig Maloney
Principal Officer Principal Officer
Teachers/SNAs Terms and Conditions Payroll

April 2012

whiteandlight

I work some hours in a secondary school and some in a vtos centre. I was pulled aside in the vtos centre and asked if I had teaching council recognition as I would not be paid from may 1st if I didn't. Word had come down from the management of the VEC. Looks like they are finally trying to implement it.

bdoo

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I work some hours in a secondary school and some in a vtos centre. I was pulled aside in the vtos centre and asked if I had teaching council recognition as I would not be paid from may 1st if I didn't. Word had come down from the management of the VEC. Looks like they are finally trying to implement it.

first of may would be jumping the gun on it a bit, the legislation still hasnt been enacted if the vec refuse to pay you id talk to the tui.

whiteandlight

Oh I do so no worries! Maybe I misheard, could swear it was may 1st

rocky raccoon

I am a teacher registered with the Teaching Council. I do not have a contracted post and am dependant on picking up subbing work. Without teaching experience there is little hope of landing a contracted post if one does come up. I do understand that there are occasions when a school may have to call in an unqualified teacher but doing so on every occasion is affecting the livelihoods of teachers depending on picking up hours/experience and we are not getting known in schools. Is this not one of the reasons so many teachers are leaving the country?

mick kk

What are we going to do about this crowd?

90e for a piece of plastic that goes straight into bin. Union seems to be on the side of the TC.
Seems we have to pay this if they enact the legislation. Anyhow, if we have to pay it then I am going to stop paying union. We don't have to pay that.

Its a quango but because we pay for it [and not the general taxpayers] its not going to go anywhere.

Look at the outcry over the household charge and it was a tenner more.

byhookorbycrook

Primary teachers have been told law is enacted and pay can be stopped.

Miss Lockhart

We have had posters put up in the staffroom from our VEC, notifying everyone of the requirement for TC registration for next year.

Does this now mean a dip is required for the VEC sector?

Will it affect those already registered with the TC for "Post Primary (VEC Sector)" who have no dip?

Or will we have a two tier system where students attending VEC schools are not guaranteed a qualified teacher while secondary school students are?

spurious

I would be really interested in a legal opinion on the legality under Irish law of withholding pay from someone, where the person is fully qualified, has done the agreed work as agreed and one side decides to stop their pay.

Is there any other precedent for this?

spurious

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

We have had posters put up in the staffroom from our VEC, notifying everyone of the requirement for TC registration for next year.

Does this now mean a dip is required for the VEC sector?

Will it affect those already registered with the TC for "Post Primary (VEC Sector)" who have no dip?

If the requirement is to be registered, then they are registered.

Miss Lockhart

spurious wrote: »

If the requirement is to be registered, then they are registered.

Well that's what I was wondering as I'm not clear on what exactly is being changed - whether the change is simply to compel registration or whether the change is to fully implement the requirement for full qualification.

Whilst I agree that it will be difficult to insist on qualification for those registered for VEC Sector already, will new people continue to be able to register for the VEC sector without the dip?

Seanchai

As I have spent much money and many years additional to my basic degrees ensuring I have TC recognition to teach the subjects which I'm teaching I do trust that the TC will now ensure that somebody registered to teach subject A will not be allowed to teach a subject which s/he is not registered/qualified to teach?

Just how many qualified people are attending interviews for state-funded jobs which unqualified people get? It's happening across the board because each school is a law unto itself. The Teaching Council should have a legal right to compel schools which advertise state-funded posts to employ only people qualified in those subjects.

The current situation has no incentive for people to get the necessary academic qualification to teach those subjects when they'll get the job/keep it because they're on good terms with the principal.

/end unpopular view.

seavill

Seanchai wrote: »

As I have spent much money and many years additional to my basic degrees ensuring I have TC recognition to teach the subjects which I'm teaching I do trust that the TC will now ensure that somebody registered to teach subject A will not be allowed to teach a subject which s/he is not registered/qualified to teach?

Just how many qualified people are attending interviews for state-funded jobs which unqualified people get? It's happening across the board because each school is a law unto itself. The Teaching Council should have a legal right to compel schools which advertise state-funded posts to employ only people qualified in those subjects.

The current situation has no incentive for people to get the necessary academic qualification to teach those subjects when they'll get the job/keep it because they're on good terms with the principal.

/end unpopular view.

I don't think the problem lies where people go for interviews for subjects they are not qualified.

I have never heard of any, for example, Irish and Geo. teacher going for an English and History job, firstly actually getting an interview but secondly actually getting the job, unless of course no one else applied which is highly unlikely. I think you are confusing where the problem is occurring.

The problem lies within the schools, where a principal has 4 hours Irish for example, and has a business and geography teacher who may have done Irish for a year or so within their degree. That principal gives the 4 Irish hours to that teacher, firstly as maybe they feel that they should be trying to fill up a timetable for them, or secondly maybe the principal will feel that they will end up under more pressure trying to fill up timetables if they have one teacher with 4 hours and another with 16 hours, rather than just having one teacher on 20 hours.

I am not saying that this is right or wrong I am just explaining where the problem actually lies, not at the interview stage as you implied.

byhookorbycrook

According to the papers today, there's a huge backlog in garda clearence and this may impact on this ruling.

whiteandlight

seavill wrote: »

I don't think the problem lies where people go for interviews for subjects they are not qualified.

I have never heard of any, for example, Irish and Geo. teacher going for an English and History job, firstly actually getting an interview but secondly actually getting the job, unless of course no one else applied which is highly unlikely. I think you are confusing where the problem is occurring.

The problem lies within the schools, where a principal has 4 hours Irish for example, and has a business and geography teacher who may have done Irish for a year or so within their degree. That principal gives the 4 Irish hours to that teacher, firstly as maybe they feel that they should be trying to fill up a timetable for them, or secondly maybe the principal will feel that they will end up under more pressure trying to fill up timetables if they have one teacher with 4 hours and another with 16 hours, rather than just having one teacher on 20 hours.

I am not saying that this is right or wrong I am just explaining where the problem actually lies, not at the interview stage as you implied.

I agree here. One of the problems you have detailed here. Another is that despite huge numbers of unemployed teachers and large numbers of qualified teachers in schools on less than full hours there is still regular employment of both retired and unqualified teachers for substitute work.

coolperson05

It's not enough to just make sure people have TC registration and then just offer them jobs. People say "I'm not on full hours, and they've a sub in". Well that's because alot of the teachers unemployed at the moment have only 1 subject and are not the sub that a school needs. They need to address teachers teaching outside their degrees. Just cause you've 2 hours free doesn't mean you should just teach Japanese, when they can get a Japanese sub in to do!

carolzoo

Yes of course the sub hours should go to a qualified sub first qualified in the subject needed to sub in. In this case if there are part time teachers on the staff not on full hours qualified in this subject they should be given the hours first or the sub hours up to 22 hours first before employing an outside sub.

The problem in schools is that principals are giving the sub work to some part time teachers and not others. Part time teachers connected to the principal do well. This is extremely unfair. There should be a transparent account of who the sub hours are being given to.

Also some part time teachers or subs (connected usually) often end up doing more than 22 hours in any given week. Extremely unfair and the department should not pay for any more than 22 hours. It shoudl not be allowed go through the pay section. The surplus of hours over 22 hours should be given to another qualified part time teacher of those subjects first.

seavill

coolperson05 wrote: »

It's not enough to just make sure people have TC registration and then just offer them jobs. People say "I'm not on full hours, and they've a sub in". Well that's because alot of the teachers unemployed at the moment have only 1 subject and are not the sub that a school needs. They need to address teachers teaching outside their degrees. Just cause you've 2 hours free doesn't mean you should just teach Japanese, when they can get a Japanese sub in to do!

I think there is two separate issues here.

Firstly I think the term sub is being referred to in two separate categories here. Generally we would clasify a sub as the person coming in for a day here and there to fill in for someone. I can safely say that in most schools it is the same 2 or 3 (1 in our school) people who come in each time no matter what the subject. They are there to supervise not sub.
These are the hours that people not on full hours are giving out about more so than the hours that become available for an entire year.

As for hours that become available for an entire year yes they should obviously be given to a qualified person first

whiteandlight

That's it in a nutshell seavill. When I was referring to unqualified/retirees subbing I meant in terms of day to day subbing not covering sets of classes. However I have seen poor implementation across the board of both situations regularly. For example a teacher I know presented a sick cert for three week period as he was going to be in hospital. The principal didn't go to the trouble of finding a qualified sub. While the hours went to part timers in the school they did not go to a qualified teacher in the subject meaning that students learning was disrupted for three weeks when there are probably many teachers unemployed who would have loved three weeks full time employment!

seavill

Musicmental85 wrote: »

That's it in a nutshell seavill. When I was referring to unqualified/retirees subbing I meant in terms of day to day subbing not covering sets of classes. However I have seen poor implementation across the board of both situations regularly. For example a teacher I know presented a sick cert for three week period as he was going to be in hospital. The principal didn't go to the trouble of finding a qualified sub. While the hours went to part timers in the school they did not go to a qualified teacher in the subject meaning that students learning was disrupted for three weeks when there are probably many teachers unemployed who would have loved three weeks full time employment!

Unacceptable, but to better that story. The same thing happened in my school this year someone was out for 3 weeks or so sick, and there were two teachers in the school that could have taken the hours, one in the same subjects, the other with different subjects.
Guess to got the hours, the one with the wrong subjects, so obviously could not teach for 3 weeks. Caused uproar but was not fixed. If the parents had found out God only knows.

whiteandlight

It really is a bonkers system in places. I can understand a qualified teacher but not necessarily in the correct subject covering a class for a teacher who is out for a match/trip etc. IMO the teacher in question should be leaving work anyway and most teachers can teach well enough in any subject to do work left for students. However once it goes past a couple of days there really needs to be a qualified teacher brought in, particularly if the teacher is too sick to be trying to send in work etc. It's crazy when that doesn't happen.

It's a good few years ago now but for my entire JC year I had an unqualified maths teacher. In some cases this can be ok if they are competent but she was anything but. I suppose the good side was it gave me my love for teaching, as an extremely able HL student I ended up teaching the Students around me for the year

carolzoo

just wondering if anyone knows if h.dip students registered with the teaching council - conditional (beacuse trainee teachers) - can be given substite work ahead of part time teachers on the staff or fully qualified umemployed teachers from next September?

Buachaillin Bo

Primary Teachers have been advised, through a brash letter from the Dept., that from the beginning of the school year 2012/2013 (ie September coming) that TC registration will be required otherwise their salaries cannot be made from Oireachtas funds. The TC has advised that teachers need to make applications to them by May 23rd to ensure registration by September. This is all supposing that section 30 of the TC is passed. This section is currently under consideration and therefore is not law. (correct?)
What right has the TC to set a deadline before the all revelant parts of the Act have passed through government? This is another example of the misguided arrogance of the TC. The same arrogance that bullied many into joining through fear-mongering. This council spent almost €2million on salaries in 2010 when it collected €7million in registration. This figure explains why the TC is indeed a QUANGO and should be from a by-gone era.
The vast vast majority of teachers agree that the TC is proving to be as useless as most expected. Why are teachers allowing themselves to be forced into paying for an organisation they do not believe in? I would pay double the cost of registration not to join this farce which is taking on the roles and responsibilities of the Dept of Ed and the teaching unions.
What can be done at this late stage is the question?

Crazyteacher

carolzoo wrote: »

just wondering if anyone knows if h.dip students registered with the teaching council - conditional (beacuse trainee teachers) - can be given substite work ahead of part time teachers on the staff or fully qualified umemployed teachers from next September?

If you mean hdip (PDE students) they can not register with the teaching council until qualified . Not paid otherwise.

If you are referring to newly qualified teachers having a conditional registration until they complete 300 hours . They can teach as normal no different from other teachers should they get teaching hours.

carolzoo

Thanks for that. I ment h.dip students. I thought they could register conditionally with the teaching council whilst doing the h.dip.

I was not referring to newly qualified teachers.

That clears that up then. As from September H.dip students will not be able to sub in schools - preference has to be given to fully qualified teachers registered with the teaching council.

carolzoo

just heard today that anyone with a degree can technically teach and do substitute work in a vec school - they can register with the teaching council as "conditional - in a vec school only".

therefore h.dip students or degree holders are allowed to register with the teaching council and the teaching council will give them conditional registration - to teach in vec schools only. They can do this until 2013.

the requirement to have a teaching qualification to teach in vec schools does not come in until 2013. I imagine it is Sept 2013. but just says 2013 so perhaps is january 2013.

again, grossly unfair situation to qualified teachers that unqualified teachers can still get substiute and will be able to get sub work until 2013 in vec schools (if they have a degree only)- this often happens when the unqualified teacher has connections.

The government need to introduce a system whereby it does not go by who you know, as if right was right in the current climate with the amount of contracted part time teachers in schools together with unemployed qualified teachers it does not make sense that degree holder only or a degree holder doing the h.dip (i.e. unqualified teacher) would be employed for substitute work over qualified teachers in vec schools.

Perhaps the TEACHING COUNCIL or the government will address this loop hole sooner than later.

Inspector Coptoor

carolzoo:

For someone who has a permanent job already, you really do seem to have a bee in your bonnet over subbing issues - whether a sub can get over 22 hours per week & now this loophole in VECs.

And while your almost militant stance is to be commended, I would suggest that you would be better off airing your views directly to your union rep, the Teaching Council themselves or even your local representative.
I just don't think that you harping on about the same point ad infinitum on an internet forum is going to alter the situation.

There is an awful lot wrong with the profession at the moment.
From how some Pre 2004 teachers who are underperforming year in, year out & can't be fired to how young teachers seem to have little to no hope of ever getting a permanent job & how "luck" & "connections" still seem to have more to do with landing a job than actual teaching ability.

It's ludicrous that teachers who start this year will be earning €11,000 gross less than those who started a couple of years ago.
It's insane that a manager (AP) position is no longer going to be replaced, and it's down right retarded that the Croke Park hours have to be spent as one big koombaya love in with the whole faculty with people trying to come up with ways of how to "use up" the hours as opposed to using them in a more productive manner.

I really feel that you are focussing on tiny problems that only scratch the surface of what's wrong at the moment and that there are bigger fish to fry.

rainbowtrout

carolzoo wrote: »

The government need to introduce a system whereby it does not go by who you know, as if right was right in the current climate with the amount of contracted part time teachers in schools together with unemployed qualified teachers it does not make sense that degree holder only or a degree holder doing the h.dip (i.e. unqualified teacher) would be employed for substitute work over qualified teachers in vec schools.

Perhaps the TEACHING COUNCIL or the government will address this loop hole sooner than later.

They are introducing a system, it will be in by 2013.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but VEC schools have laid out their qualification requirements and currently that consists of having a degree, so they can hire people without a HDip. Realistically most people subbing having the dip done, yes in some cases there are unqualified people in the system. This shouldn't happen from next year, this was always the case, and was outlined a number of years ago. I'm surprised you've only just become aware of it.


I'm just wondering if there is someone coming into your school for subbing that doesn't have a dip that you have a personal gripe against or something, because you've ranted about subbing and qualifications across about four different threads at this stage, and really if there is an issue in your school it should be taken up with union rep.

carolzoo

Hi,

Thanks guys. Our union rep was out yesterday so I am going bringing it up with her on Monday. I genuinely feel for part time colleagues with mortgages etc etc not being given a chance to earn a full salary. Any other profession has their part time hours done over 3 days usually and can claim unemployment for the other 2 or 3 days. Teachers cannot do this. Also some are travelling long distances into work (petrol expenses) and not working a full day for it.

yes rainbowtrout two h.dip students (past pupils) were given a lot of sub work when they were in this year when part time teachers were available for it. The work was mainly supervision work.

Yes inspector I agree. There is a lot of things wrong witht the system

rainbowtrout

carolzoo wrote: »

Hi,

Thanks guys. Our union rep was out yesterday so I am going bringing it up with her on Monday. I genuinely feel for part time colleagues with mortgages etc etc not being given a chance to earn a full salary. Any other profession has their part time hours done over 3 days usually and can claim unemployment for the other 2 or 3 days. Teachers cannot do this. Also some are travelling long distances into work (petrol expenses) and not working a full day for it.

yes rainbowtrout two h.dip students (past pupils) were given a lot of sub work when they were in this year when part time teachers were available for it. The work was mainly supervision work.

Yes inspector I agree. There is a lot of things wrong witht the system

I think one of the important things that the rep has to put across if management are approached is that the whole staff (or the majority) are in support of contracted, qualified part time teachers in the school getting first preference. Do not mix up any issues - part timers v. unqualified, and getting more than 22 hours or less. Start with one issue and see how things go. There should probably be a union meeting called in school to discuss the issue rather than just being a lone voice. Put it across at the meeting that part timers should be getting the hours, and more importantly put it across that part timers can't fight this battle by themselves as they are trying to secure contracts, i.e. it needs the support of the permanent staff.

carolzoo

great, thanks for that advice rainbowtrout

seamulay

Can anyone tell me if PDE students can register with the TC conditionally and how you do this? What about unqualified teachers, how are they able to register without having the PDE, do they work up hours?

delta_bravo

seamulay wrote: »

Can anyone tell me if PDE students can register with the TC conditionally and how you do this? What about unqualified teachers, how are they able to register without having the PDE, do they work up hours?

PDE students can. A person from the Teaching council should have come with forms around April.

You cannot register without a PDE if you're a new entrant. I presume that wouldn't apply to older teachers without a PDE.

Jess16

Carolzoo, how are teachers doing their Dip. supposed to become fully probated if they aren't given the hours to do so?