Season 2 Episode 4 - *HAVE* read the books / Spoilers!

Bookworm85

Sleepy wrote: »

My money says it's how he meets Jayne Westerling and that she gave him a false name.

Ooops, mean Jayne not Roslin

But did they meet in ACOK or ASOS? I always thought it was ASOS....

Better go re-read the book, am getting all confused

nicklauski

Bookworm85 wrote: »

Sleepy wrote: »

My money says it's how he meets Jayne Westerling and that she gave him a false name.

Ooops, mean Jayne not Roslin

But did they meet in ACOK or ASOS? I always thought it was ASOS....

Better go re-read the book, am getting all confused

Not much point. It'll all be changed again :pac:

Sleepy

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The way things are being changed in the series and for events to unfold the way the do in the books, she doen't need to be Jayne Westerling. She could be any non Frey noble girl. It would lead to the same event without adding unneccessary characters. The rest of the Westerling storyline was pretty much a non event anyway.

It would be a pretty big character departure for Robb though. One that would probably make him more popular with the casual female viewer (marrying for love over his duty) whereas in the book Robb was pretty much jumped by Jayne (at her parent's bidding) and married her to protect her honour as it was the less wrong thing to do in his eyes.

I'm seeing him marrying this random girl for love as being a departure from the "making the same mistakes as Ned" Robb to a more "romantic" version of the character.

It'd work just as well, imho, and as you point out it could shorten the story a little but it does fundamentally change the man Robb is and takes away from the "mini-Ned" he is in many ways in the books.

calex71

Was the tickler actually referred to by that name in this episode? Don't even think I heard Arya mention him in her prayer either, though she did say Poliver,

podgemonster

Sleepy wrote: »

It would be a pretty big character departure for Robb though. One that would probably make him more popular with the casual female viewer (marrying for love over his duty) whereas in the book Robb was pretty much jumped by Jayne (at her parent's bidding) and married her to protect her honour as it was the less wrong thing to do in his eyes.

Our perception of Robb and Jayne comes from the point of few of Catelyn who I found disliked them from the start. Robbs actual feelings are never divulged to the reader, a character i would love to have had a narrative but they were always together, she rode on horseback after him on the way to the wedding and every night to tried to make an heir.

I often found that unless we have a narrative chapter of a character you never really know who they are. Jaime in the first book is essentially a heartless cocky oathbreaker but we see from his chapters he is more than that.

Sleepy

True. But there's the line about her "comforting" him when he was injured. I always took it to mean he was feverish from his wound, she jumped into the bed with him and him being a 16 year old was "in love" with his first experience of sex...

ceegee

calex71 wrote: »

Was the tickler actually referred to by that name in this episode? Don't even think I heard Arya mention him in her prayer either, though she did say Poliver,

Think it was just Poliver and the Mountain she added to the prayer

podgemonster

Sleepy wrote: »

True. But there's the line about her "comforting" him when he was injured. I always took it to mean he was feverish from his wound, she jumped into the bed with him and him being a 16 year old was "in love" with his first experience of sex...

Thats exactly how we are told in the books but its from his mothers point of view and most parents think their kids do no wrong. Her "darling" innocent son was taken advantage of by this lower class temptress and it was her fault he broke his oath to the Freys where in fact we will never know how Robb really felt about her.

The writers however will create a heartbreaking love story coz bítches love love stories!

Sleepy

Very true. Not something I picked up on at the time but your point of our initial perception Jaime makes it extremely valid.

In one way, I'd rather it was the way I'd perceived it: I liked the idea that Robb was just as thick as his father! lol

ceegee

According to the wiki on westeros.org it seems that Talisa is replacing Jeynes character, no source included though. I wonder if her coming from Volantis will be of relevance? It kinda rules out the aspect of her parents plotting with the Lannisters.

Regarding Robb and Jeyne in the books, I never got the feeling that she jumped his bones, more that she comforted him after Brans death. I think Robb was acting out of love rather than honour

5starpool

ceegee wrote: »

According to the wiki on westeros.org it seems that Talisa is replacing Jeynes character, no source included though. I wonder if her coming from Volantis will be of relevance? It kinda rules out the aspect of her parents plotting with the Lannisters.

Regarding Robb and Jeyne in the books, I never got the feeling that she jumped his bones, more that she comforted him after Brans death. I think Robb was acting out of love rather than honour

It's a weirdly unnecessary change to make. It's not like there would have been a lot of backstory to explain if they left it as Jeyne Westerling.

Tzar Chasm

How would the change of character play out after the rw if there is no conniving mother?

Anyway that only serves as a distraction, I just remembered that the battle at the fist of the first men is also gonna be in this series

Frisbee

podgemonster wrote: »

Was it just me or did Tywin Lanister come across are a really nice guy at Harranhal?

I don't think he was nice. I think he's just smarter than the rest of them to realise that in a war you need every bit of help you can get and killing people for the sake of it is only going to:

(1) Make them hate you even more so there's more chance of rebellion
(2) Throw away possible manpower and resources. For example Gendry is a smith, you can never have enough of them in war tbh, he's much more valuable alive than dead.

I don't think it comes across well in the show but in the books he doesn't like the Mountain at all and finds his actions distasteful, only keeps him around because of what a useful commodity he is as a warrior and a source of terror for his enemies. So giving him a kick back into line wouldn't be any skin off Tywins nose.

PhlegmyMoses

Tywin's character is fleshed out the further the books go on and we see the reasons behind why he is the way he is. He is a pragmatic man who was forced to take life a bit too seriously. I also remember getting the impression that he cares about the realm as a whole far more than he is given credit for but I can't remember the specific reasons why I had that impression. Must re-read.

Sleepy

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Tywin's character is fleshed out the further the books go on and we see the reasons behind why he is the way he is. He is a pragmatic man who was forced to take life a bit too seriously.

It's definitely expanded on in the books that Tywin had to become something of a tyrant in order to maintain Lannister control of their territory due to the weakness of his father's rule. "The Rains of Castamere" depicts his crushing of one his / his father's banner-men who rebelled against the Lannisters in the Westerlands:

The Rains of Castamere wrote:

And who are you, the proud lord said,
that I must bow so low?
Only a cat of a different coat,
that's all the truth I know.

In a coat of gold or a coat of red,
a lion still has claws,
And mine are long and sharp, my lord,
as long and sharp as yours.

And so he spoke, and so he spoke,
that lord of Castamere,
But now the rains weep o'er his hall,
with no one there to hear.
Yes now the rains weep o'er his hall,
and not a soul to hear.

There's also the exposition in an A Storm of Swords Tyrion chapter that he often heard his uncle (Gerion?) say that "the best part of Tywin died with [his wife, Joanna]. Hence his harsh treatment of Tyrion: Tywin doesn't hate him for being a dwarf, he hates him for her dying in birthing him.

A weak father who's rule ensured Tywin had to put down two rebellions a wife he loved taken from him in childbirth, not to mention King Aerys inappropriate comments and actions during his wedding to her. Is it any wonder Tywin's a bit sour?

Mr Freeze

5starpool wrote: »

It's a weirdly unnecessary change to make. It's not like there would have been a lot of backstory to explain if they left it as Jeyne Westerling.

Couldn't agree more, just leave it to the same as in the books, definitely an unnecessary change if true.

Although we will have to wait and see, this could be another master stroke by the show writers.

Spideog Rua

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Couldn't agree more, just leave it to the same as in the books, definitely an unnecessary change if true.

Although we will have to wait and see, this could be another master stroke by the show writers.

Another? Master stroke?

What have they done so far that's in any way masterfull?

I'm really disappointed ny the TV show. It just seems lacking.

Newaglish

Spideog Rua wrote: »

Another? Master stroke?

What have they done so far that's in any way masterfull?

I'm really disappointed ny the TV show. It just seems lacking.

London Acid

I didn't see the need to change the jeyne westerling character, but in the big scheme of things it's only a minor gripe. I'm just scared they don't include ramsey Snow or they try to pawn off his attributes on to his father or something. I think that would be cause for a protest of the show, but so far they haven't disappointed me to much. And vargo Hoat cutting off jamies' hand could defiantly be attributed to ramsey snow just so he could have something to do in the third season, assuming he will pop up some where in the second season, because i don't know if you all noticed it but it seemed like in the next episode something goes down with rodrick. Could he be leaving to go to dread fort which is why theon is able to take winterfell? Sounds pretty logical, guess i'll have to wait till tonight to find out.

Mr Freeze

Spideog Rua wrote: »

Another? Master stroke?

What have they done so far that's in any way masterfull?

Well just aging up all the younger characters was a great move, master stroke maybe too strong of a phrase I admit.

Its weird in the book when you remember what ages the young characters are. Especially the female characters.

I definitely don't think the show is lacking! I am well impressed with it.

But changing Jeyne to some girl from Volantis is an odd change, makes no sense....yet....we will have to wait and see how it plays out.