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Mulherin's 'fornication' statements described as primitive

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    #32
    Medicine333
    Closed Accounts Posts: 387 ✭✭Medicine333


    Oldtree wrote: »
    I know that and I did not take what you said as an argument I was just highlighting what I meant by the post,

    However my opinion is just that and it seems that our society is heading along similar lines with the implementation of the Civil Partnership Act, which imo has diluted the strict religious and legal opinion of marriage.

    Your opinion is two people in a relationship and living together are married?

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but if not, that is incredibly incorrect.


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    #33
    Oldtree
    Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    I consider any long term relationship a form of marriage.

    "Incredibly incorrect" I think not... although now I think about it again perhaps from a very narrow perspective!

    "In some cases cohabitation may constitute a common-law marriage, and in some countries the laws recognize cohabitation in preference to the formality of marriage for taxation and social security benefits. This is the case, for example, in Australia: the individual lives with the individual on a genuine domestic basis in a relationship as a couple"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage#cite_note-83

    and in this country The Act defines “qualified cohabitants” as those residing together as an unmarried couple in an intimate relationship for a period of five years, or two years where there is a child or children of the relationship.


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    #34
    Medicine333
    Closed Accounts Posts: 387 ✭✭Medicine333


    Oldtree wrote: »
    I consider any long term relationship a form of marriage.

    "Incredibly incorrect" I think not... although now I think about it again perhaps from a very narrow perspective!

    A lot would disagree with you there, the Church and State in particular.

    If two people are married, it is highly unlikely they would abort their child. Why would they?

    The majority of abortions occur with individuals who are unmarried and they do not want their children so they terminate their lives.

    I don't think anyone would make the inaccurate assumption that most abortions occur in marriage? Rather most occur as a result of fornication i.e. sexual relations outside of marriage.


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    #35
    Ilovelucy
    Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭Ilovelucy


    thysich wrote: »
    Well last I checked it was MY DEMOCRATIC RIGHT!!!!.....

    Yes our Political system is a farce.. 12 years of FF and billions of debt. Deputy Mulherin is no farce.

    As councillor in Ballina she was one of the few politicians that actually did do something.

    So we voted for her as TD on her merits. And I would vote for her again regardless of her personal beliefs.

    Any what is wrong with speaking your mind in Ireland.. Its not 17 centenary Ireland where Catholics had to shut up and practise our faith behind closed doors.

    What exactly was she responsible for in her own right while she was a member of the council?


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    #36
    Oldtree
    Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Medicine333 wrote: »
    A lot would disagree with you there, the Church and State in particular.

    If two people are married, it is highly unlikely they would abort their child. Why would they?

    The majority of abortions occur with individuals who are unmarried and they do not want their children so they terminate their lives.

    I don't think anyone would make the inaccurate assumption that most abortions occur in marriage? Rather most occur as a result of fornication i.e. sexual relations outside of marriage.

    Is the church your master, not mine...!
    From the UK figures 16% of the terminations are from married women (a significant number) so you will have to ask them why it is not "highly unlightly"
    There are a miriad of reasons for terminations not simlpy "do not want their children so they terminate their lives"!
    See the edit to my last post for modern changing definition of marriage.


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    #37
    Medicine333
    Closed Accounts Posts: 387 ✭✭Medicine333


    Oldtree wrote: »
    Is the church your master, not mine...!
    From the UK figures 16% of the terminations are from married women (a significant number) so you will have to ask them why it is not "highly unlightly"
    There are a miriad of reasons for terminations not simlpy "do not want their children so they terminate their lives"!
    See the edit to my last post for modern changing definition of marriage.

    Do you not think that 84% is an overwhelming majority? Mulherin's said that fornication is the main situation under which abortions occur-WHICH IS CORRECT!

    I cannot understand how you have a problem with that, along with the fact that you don't understand the concept of marriage.


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    #38
    Oldtree
    Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Medicine333 wrote: »
    Do you not think that 84% is an overwhelming majority? Mulherin's said that fornication is the main situation under which abortions occur-WHICH IS CORRECT!

    I cannot understand how you have a problem with that, along with the fact that you don't understand the concept of marriage.

    There you go again, 84% is in fact incorrect: As I mentioned above in the literal sense Fornication typically refers to consensual sexual intercourse between two people not married to each other. Why are you including the (9% which is potentially underage girls), that is far from consensual.


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    #39
    thysich
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭thysich


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    +1

    As Gene Kerrigan points out, even if you disagree with her - as I do myself - the main problem the "progressive" media have with Deputy Mulherin's comments is that they don't conicide with approved liberal dogma. At least she has some principles, unlike some other recent TDs for Mayo . . .

    Last week, Fine Gael TD Michelle Mulherin drew sneers when she made a Dail speech condemning "fornication" -- sex outside marriage. I read her speech and disagree with its argument.

    But there's no doubt it's a coherent, sincere expression of an undiluted Catholic view. (You should read the Seventies debates on contraception, in which future supposed paragons of liberalism condemned "fornication" in much more offensive terms.)

    Why did Mulherin's speech attract such attention? Because it was unusual. It was a bare, frank and serious expression of a political position still held by many -- whatever you or I might think of it. As such, it seemed grossly out of place in our national parliament.

    Exactly, you don't have to agree with her position to respect her position.

    We had a child before we got married. Would not be the most religious person. I would have fallen into her fornication definition. But as soon as my GF was pregnant we took our responsibilities seriously, we didn't fly off to the UK to resolve the crisis... Needless to say 11 years later we are extremely happy, and even more happy that we never even contemplated anything else other than having the baby.

    She stated the obvious and held up her beliefs.. Because she is not a left wing liberal she does not fit in the liberal dogma that society thinks we all should have.. that somehow its wrong to say that you don't believe in Abortion. Its not. You should be able to have an opinion and be able to voice that opinion. A Muslim can be a Muslim in Ireland and act and dress like a Muslim and we accept it. Yet it seems a Catholic can't be a Catholic if they become a politician.

    Honestly what is wrong with saying there are alternatives to sex without commitment?

    I am sure if the electorate disagree with her in Mayo she won't be elected next time. My opinion is that she has shown herself as an honest person standing up for her beliefs... And what does the media do... jump down her throat.


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    #40
    Medicine333
    Closed Accounts Posts: 387 ✭✭Medicine333


    Oldtree wrote: »
    There you go again, 84% is in fact incorrect: As I mentioned above in the literal sense Fornication typically refers to consensual sexual intercourse between two people not married to each other. Why are you including the (9% which is potentially underage girls), that is far from consensual.

    Answer this very simple question:

    Are you saying that the majority of situations in which unborn children are terminated occurs within marriage?

    Seriously, are you saying that?

    Your argument is crumbling with making statements like people who are not married ARE actually married!


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    #41
    Oldtree
    Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Medicine333 wrote: »
    Answer this very simple question:
    Are you saying that the majority of situations in which unborn children are terminated occurs within marriage?
    Seriously, are you saying that?
    Your argument is crumbling with making statements like people who are not married ARE actually married!

    I am saying that from available figures the majority of terminations in the UK where the unborn fetus is terminated occurs within marriage and partnerships (which I consider a form of marriage).


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    #42
    thysich
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭thysich


    Medicine333 wrote: »
    Answer this very simple question:

    Are you saying that the majority of situations in which unborn children are terminated occurs within marriage?

    Seriously, are you saying that?

    Your argument is crumbling with making statements like people who are not married ARE actually married!

    Marital status of Irish residents having abortions in England & Wales during the year 2010:-

    Single 78%
    Married 13%
    Separated or divorced
    or widowed 2%
    Not classified 6%



    Age ranges of Irish residents having abortions in England & Wales during the year 2010


    %
    Under 16 years old
    Just less than 1%
    All persons under 18 years
    Just less than 4%
    Persons aged 18 and 19 years
    7%
    Persons in their 20s
    53%
    Persons in their 30s
    31%
    Persons in their 40s
    6%


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    #43
    Medicine333
    Closed Accounts Posts: 387 ✭✭Medicine333


    Oldtree wrote: »
    I am saying that from available figures the majority of terminations in the UK where the unborn fetus is terminated occurs within marriage and partnerships (which I consider a form of marriage).

    Right, that's your opinion, which in my eyes is so inaccurate it's painful to read.

    Marriage is not involved when two people are living together. Sorry, you're wrong.

    You're the kind of person who will try to wriggle out of argument by making non-sensical statements like that due to your own bias against the Church.


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    #44
    thysich
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭thysich


    Oldtree wrote: »
    I am saying that from available figures the majority of terminations in the UK where the unborn fetus is terminated occurs within marriage and partnerships (which I consider a form of marriage).

    I was in a partnership with GF when she got pregnant. it was unexpected. Hard are the time as we had no money and I had no job.. But generally if the women as a partner she does not run off to abort. Abortion by Irish women falls really into 2 Camps. A. Women is carrying a child with disability ie. Downs or another abnormality and she aborts. B. Its used a contraception in the first 3 months. They don't want the Child as they are too young and don't have the support of a Partner. Usually if the Partner was supportive.. there would be no Crisis :-). Lets face it.. you don't hear any stories of the Partner going to England with the women when she is having the abortion.


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    #45
    Oldtree
    Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Medicine333 wrote: »
    Right, that's your opinion, which in my eyes is so inaccurate it's painful to read.
    Marriage is not involved when two people are living together. Sorry, you're wrong.
    You're the kind of person who will try to wriggle out of argument by making non-sensical statements like that due to your own bias against the Church.

    Wow! I'm Wrong am I, Thanks, What a deep insight you have into the world around you. It must be great to be so absolute in your understanding of the world.

    I thought you were keen on 'everyone has the right to free speech' based on your above post.

    I have no bias against the church, I am simply not superstitious.


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    #46
    Medicine333
    Closed Accounts Posts: 387 ✭✭Medicine333


    Oldtree wrote: »
    Wow! I'm Wrong am I, Thanks, What a deep insight you have into the world around you. It must be great to be so absolute in your understanding of the world.

    I thought you were keen on 'everyone has the right to free speech' based on your above post.

    I have no bias against the church, I am simply not superstitious.

    Look above and you will see the figures/stats posted about Irish abortions.

    Whether it is I or common sense based on those stats saying you are incorrect, it is clear you are wrong.


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    #47
    Oldtree
    Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    thysich wrote: »
    I was in a partnership with GF when she got pregnant. it was unexpected. Hard are the time as we had no money and I had no job.. But generally if the women as a partner she does not run off to abort. Abortion by Irish women falls really into 2 Camps. A. Women is carrying a child with disability ie. Downs or another abnormality and she aborts. B. Its used a contraception in the first 3 months. They don't want the Child as they are too young and don't have the support of a Partner. Usually if the Partner was supportive.. there would be no Crisis :-). Lets face it.. you don't hear any stories of the Partner going to England with the women when she is having the abortion.

    I dont know enough as to the whys and wherefores to discuss that but I have heard stories of partners accompanying partners to a clinic.


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    #48
    Medicine333
    Closed Accounts Posts: 387 ✭✭Medicine333


    Oldtree wrote: »
    I dont know enough as to the whys and wherefores to discuss that but I have heard stories of partners accompanying partners to a clinic.

    That doesn't make them a majority. Therefore, Mulherin is 100% correct regarding her comment and it's a complete over-reaction from the media.


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    #49
    Oldtree
    Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Medicine333 wrote: »
    Look above and you will see the figures/stats posted about Irish abortions.
    Whether it is I or common sense based on those stats saying you are incorrect, it is clear you are wrong.

    Goodness you do have your nickers in a twist. I dont see how you can judge my clearly stated opinion to be wrong, that would be like me saying to you that your religious beliefs are wrong!


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    #50
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,288 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Medicine333 wrote: »
    This woman was voted in by people who have the right to vote. Who are you to say they were mal-informed?

    Nobody is question the peoples' right to vote for the candidate of their choice, but can you show me where this candidate made her strong christian believes known to the electorate before the election, if she had it is certainly within the bounds of possibility that voters might have exercised their voting rights in a different manner.

    Like I said, we'll see what happens at the next election,


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    #51
    thysich
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭thysich


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Nobody is question the peoples' right to vote for the candidate of their choice, but can you show me where this candidate made her strong christian believes known to the electorate before the election, if she had it is certainly within the bounds of possibility that voters might have exercised their voting rights in a different manner.

    Like I said, we'll see what happens at the next election,


    In Ballina everyone knows exactly who she is.. We have no surprises this week.

    She worked hard here for many years and is well liked.. And she is not the only one around here with Christian Beliefs.

    At least she lives them and its always showed.. She is hard working and people who know her know that.. And it wasn't just Catholics who voted for her.


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    #52
    Medicine333
    Closed Accounts Posts: 387 ✭✭Medicine333


    Oldtree wrote: »
    Goodness you do have your nickers in a twist. I dont see how you can judge my clearly stated opinion to be wrong, that would be like me saying to you that your religious beliefs are wrong!

    You said that two people co-habiting and in a relationship are more or less married and should be regarded likewise. You're wrong.


    You said that the majority of cases of abortion occur within marriage-incorrect. That percentage is in the teens. You are wrong.


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    #53
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Beware the born-again Christian.
    Like the reformed smoker, and reformed drinker they will often try to ram their fervent attitudes down your throat.

    Mod Note - Hearsay is dangerous, don't be posting comments like that on here please.

    Nice and handy the way you can just press Ctrl, Alt, Delete, and start again.


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    #54
    Ilovelucy
    Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭Ilovelucy


    thysich wrote: »
    In Ballina everyone knows exactly who she is.. We have no surprises this week.

    She worked hard here for many years and is well liked.. And she is not the only one around here with Christian Beliefs.

    At least she lives them and its always showed.. She is hard working and people who know her know that.. And it wasn't just Catholics who voted for her.

    Again I ask you. What did she do for Ballina whilst on the council in her own right.


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    #55
    thysich
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭thysich


    Ilovelucy wrote: »
    Again I ask you. What did she do for Ballina whilst on the council in her own right.

    Well she was the only one he pushed the problems with our estate and got them fixed. Instead of putting us on the long finger like others I won't name.


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    #56
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,288 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    thysich wrote: »
    In Ballina everyone knows exactly who she is.. We have no surprises this week.

    She worked hard here for many years and is well liked.. And she is not the only one around here with Christian Beliefs.

    At least she lives them and its always showed.. She is hard working and people who know her know that.. And it wasn't just Catholics who voted for her.

    Yes, but it took more than the votes in the town of Ballina, to elect her...


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    #57
    thysich
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭thysich


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Yes, but it took more than the votes in the town of Ballina, to elect her...


    And you think that voicing your religious views is a negative in Mayo? The Catholic "Mecca" of Ireland. Most visited County in Ireland after dublin.?


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    #58
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    thysich wrote: »
    Most visited County in Ireland after dublin.?

    Any stats to back that up?


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    #59
    Cosmo Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    thysich wrote: »
    In Ballina everyone knows exactly who she is.. We have no surprises this week.

    She worked hard here for many years and is well liked.. And she is not the only one around here with Christian Beliefs.

    At least she lives them and its always showed.. She is hard working and people who know her know that.. And it wasn't just Catholics who voted for her.

    She ran in the Mayo constituency though, Ballina represents less than a tenth of the overall vote. A lot of people will have given her lower preferences that helped her home without knowing the first thing about her other than that she was on the FG ticket so it was a vote for Enda for Taoiseach. As a local politician she has achieved nothing of note.

    I once worked with a devout Christian who reckoned that it didn't matter what he did in life, he'd just repent on his deathbed and be saved - that seems like it might be Mulherin's approach to things as well...do as I say, don't do as I do.


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    #60
    Oldtree
    Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Medicine333 wrote: »
    You said that two people co-habiting and in a relationship are more or less married and should be regarded likewise. You're wrong.
    You said that the majority of cases of abortion occur within marriage-incorrect. That percentage is in the teens. You are wrong.

    IMO two people co-habiting and in a relationship are more or less married and are regarded likewise. Then it follows that the majority of cases of abortion occur within marriage in that context.


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    #61
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,288 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    thysich wrote: »
    And you think that voicing your religious views is a negative in Mayo? The Catholic "Mecca" of Ireland. Most visited County in Ireland after dublin.?

    Like it said time will tell, but I have my doubts. It certainly has not helped other candidates...


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