Discipline in schools (crisis)

seavill

Powerhouse wrote: »

Not true.

I'll make this my last post on the matter lest your and Seavill's fingers fall off from 'thanking' each other.

glenn3ie's comments provided the context, and I suppose it suits to keep referring back to them, but they certainly were not the only ones offered. Some posters were protraying a legal doomsdays scenario for teachers if a student was outside the door. That is a load of BS in my view for the reasons outlined.

At least one poster spoke of the myriad of dangers lurking in corridors, people falling down stairs etc. implying that a student could not be removed and left unattended. This could be done only after management or another teacher etc. were called. That is true neither in theory nor practice, and it was disingenuous in the extreme for people to present it that way.

I'd sure hate to deal with you guys is you disagreed with me!

Again with the pettiness. I thanked one comment, rainbowtrout thanked one comment. You have an issue as you seem to think as a result we are attacking you or something.

I think you stopped replying to my comments a while ago as you realised you were wrong but refused to admit it

I would hate to deal with you as supposedly being the adult in your room.

I know you did say that it was your last post but could you do me the favour of pointing out where I wrote anything that is the opposite to what you said?
You stated that there was times that a student had to be removed from the room. I stated that there was times where a student or teacher had to be removed from a room. Where is the issue?

GaryIrv93

Well they're teenagers - put yourself in their position - wouldn't you be bored sitting at a desk all day listening to a teacher droning on and on? All young people love to joke around, act the eejit and have a good time every once in a while, although constant disruption is unacceptable. But messing is to be expected in schools, especially from teenagers.

seavill

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

Well they're teenagers - put yourself in their position - wouldn't you be bored sitting at a desk all day listening to a teacher droning on and on? All young people love to joke around, act the eejit and have a good time every once in a while, although constant disruption is unacceptable. But messing is to be expected in schools, especially from teenagers.

Agree it is expected and ususally taken in good spirit by teachers like you said unless its a constant disruption. (unless the teacher got out of the wrong side of the bed that morning:p)

rainbowtrout

Powerhouse wrote: »

Not true.

I'll make this my last post on the matter lest your and Seavill's fingers fall off from 'thanking' each other.

glenn3ie's comments provided the context, and I suppose it suits to keep referring back to them, but they certainly were not the only ones offered. Some posters were protraying a legal doomsdays scenario for teachers if a student was outside the door. That is a load of BS in my view for the reasons outlined.

At least one poster spoke of the myriad of dangers lurking in corridors, people falling down stairs etc. implying that a student could not be removed and left unattended. This could be done only after management or another teacher etc. were called. That is true neither in theory nor practice, and it was disingenuous in the extreme for people to present it that way.

I'd sure hate to deal with you guys is you disagreed with me!

I can only assume that the one poster you are referring to is me, as I mentioned the possibility of a child falling on a stairs. Again you're misinterpreting my post. Schools are not death traps, if they were they wouldn't be open. Teachers provide a duty of care to their students while in their class, by putting them outside the class for a reason that does not warrant it, they are leaving the student unsupervised. If something happens that student while they are unsupervised you are responsible. It doesn't matter if the walls are padded and the floors are made of rubber and it's the most child proof, student friendly building going, they were not under supervision when they should have been and that is the central issue, not the surroundings the student is in.

It's also disingenuous for you to suggest that a student can't be left unattended until management has been called etc. In my school we cannot do this. Teachers have been reprimanded by the principal for putting students out of their classroom in a situation where they have been disruptive in a context where they are not causing danger, and it has been made quite clear to us that it is not acceptable. So it is very much the case in practice where I work and my school is not the only one which operates in this way.

GaryIrv93

seavill wrote: »

Agree it is expected and ususally taken in good spirit by teachers like you said unless its a constant disruption. (unless the teacher got out of the wrong side of the bed that morning:p)

Partly I'd blame pushover teachers also for letting the disruption continue. Not saying that teachers need to be excessivley strict - no student likes those types, but many need to learn how to take control of a disruptive class by sending students out one by one until it stops, and not to give lectures such as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E68dTBT8V8 No student will respect teachers who do this. Ever. It's an even bigger waste of class time.

seavill

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

Partly I'd blame pushover teachers also for letting the disruption continue. Not saying that teachers need to be excessivley strict - no student likes those types, but many need to learn how to take control of a disruptive class by sending students out one by one until it stops, and not to give lectures such as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E68dTBT8V8 No student will respect teachers who do this. Ever. It's an even bigger waste of class time.

You seem to have missed the point of the last couple of pages of posts, I won't get back into it.

GaryIrv93

seavill wrote: »

You seem to have missed the point of the last couple of pages of posts, I won't get back into it.

I only read the 1st post, :rolleyes:

Flashgordon197

Any chance this could move back to the topic? Yes ,removing pupils is relevant but in the vast majority of cases its daily run of the mill disruption that really wrecks education for students and teachers. There needs to be a broader discussion in society about the way we raise children. Frank Furendi has written extensively on this. Narrowing this to schools-lets society off the hook.

Moody_mona

A colleague was giving a detention to two of my students back in February for general bad behaviour. I told him how they were causing a disruption in my class. Pretty low level, talking, messing, laughing, but constantly so it was very frustrating. He got them to write letters of apology. Very good ones, would like to think he didnt guide them but that's not the point! I keep the letters in my pencilcase and if they're at it again, I bring them to the bottom of the room and get them to read their letter to me. I dont know if it reminds them of the threat of detention or how much their behaviour affects the class, but it's like the get this wave of realisation. I've done it three times since Feb, in fact the last time, they knew it was coming so they just copped on anyway.

seavill

Flashgordon197 wrote: »

Any chance this could move back to the topic? Yes ,removing pupils is relevant but in the vast majority of cases its daily run of the mill disruption that really wrecks education for students and teachers. There needs to be a broader discussion in society about the way we raise children. Frank Furendi has written extensively on this. Narrowing this to schools-lets society off the hook.

I don't believe this thread has gone off topic so far. Up to now we have been discussing different methods of discipline used in various schools including the use of removing a student from the room. This as a discipline technique is obviously relevant to the title of this thread which is "discipline in schools Crisis". I fail to see how that is going off topic.

I do think that you are indeed going off topic. Discussing how parents raise their children in the privacy of their own homes has nothing to do with us as teachers and is something that we have no control over.

So bringing the thread back on topic would be for people to suggest other methods they have used that have been found to be beneficial.
I mentioned positive discipline, others have mentioned things like stamps and JCSP stickers etc. Others have mentioned the benefits or not of detention, lines etc.
Support (or lack of) from management has a huge role to play in the discipline crisis in some schools.
Anybody else have any other methods found useful.
This year I sent home letters to parents with a detailed sheet of homework completed or not so far to each parent. Although time consuming I thought it was worth a try. I did this for two classes, one 5th and one 6th year
It had a positive effect on the 5th year class but had no impact on the 6th year class at all. Not really sure why to be honest I thought that it would have more impact on the 6th year class. It was done around Feb. time.

Flashgordon197

Well I think how parents raise their children and value education has a direct impact on discipline in schools but I do appreciate that strictly speaking its broader than the topic. Too often teachers allow the media to narrow the debate to schools.
As I have pointed out a few times this issue of feral youth is not just down to schools. You can bet that the kid who acts up in class is no angel on the street or at home. I hope some day to offend many parents with an article on this very issue. Parents who get away with murder in terms of the way they bring up their kids.

Provocative-perhaps but Im really feed up with the PC bull that is peddled in schools by NEWB and the Inspectorate. Basically the teacher is meant to be a human being stripped of emotion. Yes,you are an adult. They are children but they are children who know damn well what they are up to. The age of criminal consent (you know what a crime is) is 7 not 18 as these bodies seem to think.
A bit of a rant there but from the heart. Is there a site where you can get info on a positive discipline sys for a working class school?

Powerhouse

seavill wrote: »

Again with the pettiness. I thanked one comment, rainbowtrout thanked one comment. You have an issue as you seem to think as a result we are attacking you or something.

I think you stopped replying to my comments a while ago as you realised you were wrong but refused to admit it

I would hate to deal with you as supposedly being the adult in your room.

I know you did say that it was your last post but could you do me the favour of pointing out where I wrote anything that is the opposite to what you said?
You stated that there was times that a student had to be removed from the room. I stated that there was times where a student or teacher had to be removed from a room. Where is the issue?

Yes, I did say it was my last post and you could have respected that.

But this comment is pathetic "I would hate to deal with you as supposedly being the adult in your room".

What the hell do you know about me or my classroom to write that?

seavill

Powerhouse wrote: »

Yes, I did say it was my last post and you could have respected that.

But this comment is pathetic "I would hate to deal with you as supposedly being the adult in your room".

What the hell do you know about me or my classroom to write that?

You didn't have to respond if you did not want to.

Anyway moral of the story is that we were all on the same page all along really We were all just making the same point in a different way.

Flashgordan,
I do agree with you that most of the problems we face can be linked to home however it is not something we can control so not something that I spend much time thinking about.

The NBSS (National Behavioural Support Service) website (nbss.ie) has some links and a lot of material in their publications section. I worked with them for a while in my school, however most of the strategies we implimented were things that we came up with ourselves moreso than there actually being a handbook to follow, however they did guide us in many aspects. (the publications on the website were not available at the time to download) A lot of the staff were sceptical and prob still are but many things did work even if it was just for a short period.

clartharlear

glenn3ie wrote: »

Monthly written feedback to students
At the end of each month, I provided written feedback to students on their progess in my class. This included a section on 'what you've done well' and 'what could be improved'. There was also space for test results and room for a note on attendance/punctuality. Students had to get a slip signed by their parents to say they'd read it. This was received generally well and the 1-1 discussions with the students on how they were doing in the class seem to improve their confidence for the following month. I also asked them during this 1-1 discussion if there was anything I could do to improve their learning (my aim here was to put the ownership back on them). Some asked to be moved closer to the board, others asked for me to speak slower and others said nothing.

This did take a lot of time to do. It took about 10 minutes per student to think of useful feedback to give them.

It definitely motivated further those who already had some motivation towards learning and for those who weren't exactly motivated it put the ownership back on them i.e. they realised that if they didn't work they would be the ones to lose out.

twice termly written What Went Well and Even Better If comments are standard in my english comprehensive. for all 230 children i teach...

lestat21

clartharlear wrote: »

twice termly written What Went Well and Even Better If comments are standard in my english comprehensive. for all 230 children i teach...

Thats a lot of work clartharlear... I'm doing this at the moment with one group thats disruptive and getting low results but even 27 reports are a pain and taking so long to do out!!! Cos you want to give feedback thats correct, relevant and unique to students.

looksee

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

Partly I'd blame pushover teachers also for letting the disruption continue. Not saying that teachers need to be excessivley strict - no student likes those types, but many need to learn how to take control of a disruptive class by sending students out one by one until it stops, and not to give lectures such as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E68dTBT8V8 No student will respect teachers who do this. Ever. It's an even bigger waste of class time.

That is absolutely disgraceful. What the teacher is or is not doing is completely irrelevant to the fact that someone filmed it and put it on Youtube. I cannot imagine any other work situation where this kind of invasion of privacy would be allowed.

Flashgordon197

Bottom line is kids are brought up to think teachers/adults are fair game. All adult authority is now open to question. I had a kid today who thought it acceptable to talk about me physically to another pupil while I was a foot away. I think in my heart of hearts I know the PC bull spun by NEWB and to a lesser extent the stuff spun by NBSS is never going to fully address this problem or even half address it.
The only thing would be to create centres of excellence right in the middle of working class/disadvantaged areas. Give schools complete and unencumbered control over admissions/expulsions.
Every other solution is like pissing in the wind.

Flashgordon197

seavill wrote: »

You didn't have to respond if you did not want to.

Anyway moral of the story is that we were all on the same page all along really We were all just making the same point in a different way.

Flashgordan,
I do agree with you that most of the problems we face can be linked to home however it is not something we can control so not something that I spend much time thinking about.

The NBSS (National Behavioural Support Service) website (nbss.ie) has some links and a lot of material in their publications section. I worked with them for a while in my school, however most of the strategies we implimented were things that we came up with ourselves moreso than there actually being a handbook to follow, however they did guide us in many aspects. (the publications on the website were not available at the time to download) A lot of the staff were sceptical and prob still are but many things did work even if it was just for a short period.

I will peruse the links. I wont comment on the effectiveness or not of Positive behaviour programmes promoted by the NBSS until I have tried them. I do have something of an issue with trying to motivate kids with such programmes- isn't the value of Education enough of a motivation? But will look them up.

seavill

Flashgordon197 wrote: »

I will peruse the links. I wont comment on the effectiveness or not of Positive behaviour programmes promoted by the NBSS until I have tried them. I do have something of an issue with trying to motivate kids with such programmes- isn't the value of Education enough of a motivation? But will look them up.

Well yes is the quick answer it should be but anyone who thinks that is actually what happens is seriously mistaken. One size does not always fill all.

Flashgordon197

I'm sure you have all read the stories about <snip - names of schools currently in the media for discipline issues> -I dont wish to comment on what are ongoing cases but I think it shows that the discipline crisis stretches into middle class schools. At its heart is a lack of respect for Adult authority. Its broader than a school. Also there is a lack of respect for teachers propagated by the Media . The two issues lack of respect for adult authority and teachers are of course inter-twined.

spurious

I agree with this.

Just today I met up with some past pupils of mine from 25+ years ago and we went on a visit to our old school building. One of them recently did some work in my present school and the big difference both he and the others saw between their own school days and 'kids today' was the lack of manners/respect/whatever you want to call it.

In the 80s, in a 'tech', in probably the most disadvantaged area in the country, we NEVER had a child use the F word to a teacher, we never had to call the guards to remove an aggressive parent from the school, we never had a child assault a teacher, or threaten to destroy their property, or threaten to accuse them of 'touching them' (yes, that's the latest trump card) or any of the other behaviours today's charmers come out with.

After almost 30 years, it's the thing that wears you down, not the workload, not even the ludicrous amounts of paperwork/reports that no-one ever reads, it's the constant demeaning of yourself, your colleagues, other school staff and the other children in the class by 'students' who do not want to be there, have no intention of ever working, who you and the some way decent kids in the school will be paying for for life.

flatbackfour

spurious wrote: »

I agree with this.

Just today I met up with some past pupils of mine from 25+ years ago and we went on a visit to our old school building. One of them recently did some work in my present school and the big difference both he and the others saw between their own school days and 'kids today' was the lack of manners/respect/whatever you want to call it.

In the 80s, in a 'tech', in probably the most disadvantaged area in the country, we NEVER had a child use the F word to a teacher, we never had to call the guards to remove an aggressive parent from the school, we never had a child assault a teacher, or threaten to destroy their property, or threaten to accuse them of 'touching them' (yes, that's the latest trump card) or any of the other behaviours today's charmers come out with.

After almost 30 years, it's the thing that wears you down, not the workload, not even the ludicrous amounts of paperwork/reports that no-one ever reads, it's the constant demeaning of yourself, your colleagues, other school staff and the other children in the class by 'students' who do not want to be there, have no intention of ever working, who you and the some way decent kids in the school will be paying for for life.

Brilliant

And dont forget students filming with their mobile phones in class and putting it on youtube/facebook.

bdoo

I wonder is it part of the Celtic tiger attitude and our newfound 'confidence'. So often we hear how assertive and self confident the Irish youth are.

There's a very fine line between the above and plain bad manners.

There was a time when the kids with no interest in school went off to work or into apprenticships but this has waned significantly of late leavimg a disproportionate amount of kids who don't like school with little option - at least parents get child benefit if they stay in school . another hangover from the tiger days.

In my deis school I find that those with least are among the most decent people I meet. On the other hand the rich kid middle class "I get my way at home all the time" crowd cause havoc and still feel entitled to do well because daddy is a solicitor or whatever.

This crowd have zero respect - for anyone. Most notably their parents! And its their sense of entitlement and arrogance that is the worst of all. What doesn't help here is the tendency of principals to do kowtow to some parents because of their 'class' and a lot of staff are no better I have to say.

They let these individuals away with little things which get bigger and bigger and it erodes their professionalism and their ability to take action when needed.

Some teachers are completly out of touch with reality also I listened to a colleague of mine - a daughter of two teachers from a family of three - raving about how such a child from the council had no hope of doing well because they had no desk in their room to study! I mean if all it took was a desk!

This teacher equates having a nice desk to being a good student and can see no wrong in the cheeky kid who has the homework done thanks to the grind at the weekend.

flatbackfour

bdoo wrote: »

I wonder is it part of the Celtic tiger attitude and our newfound 'confidence'. So often we hear how assertive and self confident the Irish youth are.

There's a very fine line between the above and plain bad manners.

There was a time when the kids with no interest in school went off to work or into apprenticships but this has waned significantly of late leavimg a disproportionate amount of kids who don't like school with little option - at least parents get child benefit if they stay in school . another hangover from the tiger days.

In my deis school I find that those with least are among the most decent people I meet. On the other hand the rich kid middle class "I get my way at home all the time" crowd cause havoc and still feel entitled to do well because daddy is a solicitor or whatever.

This crowd have zero respect - for anyone. Most notably their parents! And its their sense of entitlement and arrogance that is the worst of all. What doesn't help here is the tendency of principals to do kowtow to some parents because of their 'class' and a lot of staff are no better I have to say.

They let these individuals away with little things which get bigger and bigger and it erodes their professionalism and their ability to take action when needed.

Some teachers are completly out of touch with reality also I listened to a colleague of mine - a daughter of two teachers from a family of three - raving about how such a child from the council had no hope of doing well because they had no desk in their room to study! I mean if all it took was a desk!

This teacher equates having a nice desk to being a good student and can see no wrong in the cheeky kid who has the homework done thanks to the grind at the weekend.

Brilliant post, truly brilliant.

whiteandlight

Was just reading about another school expelling LC students (some discussion in after hours). I honestly can't imagine barricading ourselves in a room in school and then having 'altercations' with the principal. Nor can I imagine having a parent (Irish times) seem happy enough with the situation simpy because there was no drink/drugs involved. I can only imagine what the response would have been about the school if a student had been harmed in that room

juneg

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I am in primary and we don't see the same issues, thankfully. I agree that one child can make all the difference and that we need a greater degree of support, both from the parent/s and the DES.

I totally disagree that we dont see the same issues in primary. The classroom in primary has changed radically since I started teaching 20 years ago. ( some good, some bad)

Most of the parents I meet are brilliant and interested in their children. However, many parents have no clue how to set boundaries for their children and this translates as disruptive behaviour in class. We have some parents who look on helplessly (or maybe they dont know any better ) while their kids misbehave. Its an attitude of "Sure what can I do about it?"

The junior infant who cant wait his turn, demands all the attention,has poor interaction with his peers, shouts out of turn and cannot concentrate on a jigsaw or activity ....
well what kind of a teenager will he be?

cmssjone

I have been fortunate enough to have a class from hell where there are a hard core group of 6 children who are unable to behave at all. I am not just talking about low-level disruption but they try to fling objects at each other at any opportunity.

I regularly have to send one out to the corridor so that someone does not get hurt. I have reported them as health and safety problems but know that the management has neither the will nor inclination to do anything about it except suspend them when they have been overly bold in the majority of their lessons. I, and others, write reports on each of them after every lesson which are "filed away".

There are cameras that are placed around the corridors but the principal never comes around to admonish the children he sees have been ejected as I think he is scared of them himself.

I was of the opinion that I have covered my ass regarding an incident with a child outside of my classroom with the paperwork I have submitted AND the fact there are cameras keeping an eye on them. If management chooses to ignore them does it mean I am still liable?

Fizzical

cmssjone wrote: »

I have been fortunate enough to have a class from hell where there are a hard core group of 6 children who are unable to behave at all. I am not just talking about low-level disruption but they try to fling objects at each other at any opportunity.

I regularly have to send one out to the corridor so that someone does not get hurt. I have reported them as health and safety problems but know that the management has neither the will nor inclination to do anything about it except suspend them when they have been overly bold in the majority of their lessons. I, and others, write reports on each of them after every lesson which are "filed away".

There are cameras that are placed around the corridors but the principal never comes around to admonish the children he sees have been ejected as I think he is scared of them himself.

I was of the opinion that I have covered my ass regarding an incident with a child outside of my classroom with the paperwork I have submitted AND the fact there are cameras keeping an eye on them. If management chooses to ignore them does it mean I am still liable?

I'd worry about this one. A 'bold', disruptive child could easily get up to mischief out in the corridor - do damage in the toilets, run out on the road etc. Could you bring him/her to sit outside the Principal's room and let the Principal know? Could you put him/her into a different teacher's classroom? I don't think you can rely on cameras as nobody may be watching at the particular time and you have put a known misbehaver out of supervision.

cmssjone

Fizzical wrote: »

I'd worry about this one. A 'bold', disruptive child could easily get up to mischief out in the corridor - do damage in the toilets, run out on the road etc. Could you bring him/her to sit outside the Principal's room and let the Principal know? Could you put him/her into a different teacher's classroom? I don't think you can rely on cameras as nobody may be watching at the particular time and you have put a known misbehaver out of supervision.

I could indeed walk him/her to the Principal's room, which would then leave the majority of messers with no supervision whatsoever. My major problem is thus:

I have made it clear that these pupils are a Health and Safety risk. I fill form after form (as per procedure of the school) and yet their behaviour does not change. They are sent on holiday (I mean suspension for 2 days) and the whole process starts again. Does the Health and Safety of ONE individual come before the health and safety of the rest of the members of the class and the teacher? If this was in any other workplace this scenario would not be allowed to happen yet in our profession it is tolerated. Behaviour contracts are signed yet are meaningless and the kids know this.

The strategy of placing the child in a different teacher's room is grand and all but when they have their own fair share of problem students then it doesn't work.

Fizzical

cmssjone wrote: »

I could indeed walk him/her to the Principal's room, which would then leave the majority of messers with no supervision whatsoever. My major problem is thus:

I have made it clear that these pupils are a Health and Safety risk. I fill form after form (as per procedure of the school) and yet their behaviour does not change. They are sent on holiday (I mean suspension for 2 days) and the whole process starts again. Does the Health and Safety of ONE individual come before the health and safety of the rest of the members of the class and the teacher? If this was in any other workplace this scenario would not be allowed to happen yet in our profession it is tolerated. Behaviour contracts are signed yet are meaningless and the kids know this.

The strategy of placing the child in a different teacher's room is grand and all but when they have their own fair share of problem students then it doesn't work.

Is the procedure of placing the child in the corridor a recognised procedure (a)as practised in the school or (b) written in the discipline code? That would help in relation to liability.

Also if you have written record of letting the Principal know, in writing, that you are using this procedure having exhausted other methods. You say you have made it clear that these pupils are a H&S risk - to whom? It needs to be made clear to the BOM in writing, not just the Principal, who only has the leeway the BOM allows.

On the other hand, placing pupils in another teacher's class can work very well depending on the circumstances eg if they are in disgrace in the new class (and not heroes) and not with friends, and if it's long enough to give you a break and disrupt the cycle in your own eg for a couple of days. You can return the favour with the other teacher another time.

Could a well behaved child go fetch the Principal to take the offending pupil?

Also as you may have seen in other threads, some schools ask the parents to come in and supervise the pupil in the corridor.

It really depends on how secure you are in your fears, if you get me. "I'm sorry, Principal P, but from Monday if all 6 problem children are present I won't be able to take the class. I really can't assume responsibility for the safety of the other children." Follow this with a discussion of possible solutions, and have some suggestions ready eg parent comes in to help, Principal takes a couple of the children, teacher A or B helps out perhaps in rotation etc (ask them first).

Sorry, this is a bit mixed up. But if you want a solution the best way is to propose solutions from which something can be chosen.

seavill

I know you have said you document everything as is policy, but hsve you actually written a letter directly to the principal separate to the discipline forms.

In my first job I was actually asked to do this by the principal as he was trying to make the strongest case possible to the board but needed stronger evidence on top of complaints forms. So this is actually a recognised procedure. I know your principal is not asking for this but it strengthens your case as he must respond.
Get other teachers in similar positions to also sign it. It is never just one teacher with these probs. If this also fails get union rep involved as it is as you said a h&s issue. The principal is responsible for your safety also

Fuinseog

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Was just reading about another school expelling LC students (some discussion in after hours). I honestly can't imagine barricading ourselves in a room in school and then having 'altercations' with the principal. Nor can I imagine having a parent (Irish times) seem happy enough with the situation simpy because there was no drink/drugs involved. I can only imagine what the response would have been about the school if a student had been harmed in that room

it is a fee paying school. generally it such places the parents are appeased at all costs. the irish times seems to regard the ruling as draconian. i heard one of the teachers was assaulted.

Fuinseog

Fizzical wrote: »

Is the procedure of placing the child in the corridor a recognised procedure (a)as practised in the school or (b) written in the discipline code? That would help in relation to liability.


On the other hand, placing pupils in another teacher's class can work very well depending on the circumstances eg if they are in disgrace in the new class (and not heroes) and not with friends, and if it's long enough to give you a break and disrupt the cycle in your own eg for a couple of days. You can return the favour with the other teacher another time.

.

in most schools you cannot, for insurance purposes, ask an unruly pupil to leave the class. you must entertain his or her behaviour and deal with it after class, when school management may do something about it or not.
younger teacher suffer in silence as they do not want to appear incompetent and lacking control of the class.
the interests of the individual here supersede the majority. in some cases you can have an unruly pupil who disrupts every class every day for the school year and beyond and nothing can be done about it.

GarIT

Flashgordon197 wrote: »

I'm sure you have all read the stories about <snip - names of schools currently in the media for discipline issues> -I dont wish to comment on what are ongoing cases but I think it shows that the discipline crisis stretches into middle class schools. At its heart is a lack of respect for Adult authority. Its broader than a school. Also there is a lack of respect for teachers propagated by the Media . The two issues lack of respect for adult authority and teachers are of course inter-twined.

What you said is spot on, it highlights the exact problem, the teachers. Its the exact problem but not how you meant it. Teachers that think they deserve respect just for being teachers or even adults. There is no such thing as adult authority. It is completely wrong. Nobody deserves any authority over a child because of their age. When people begin to understand that there will be less trouble. I would have expected a teacher to know better. When teachers start treating the students better they would be shown more respect.

I have also noticed that in school that when a teacher is bad at their job and has trouble teaching there is trouble in the classroom, but then in the next class I could be with the exact same classmates, with a more interesting better teacher and there is no trouble.

Fuinseog

Flashgordon197 wrote: »

I'm sure you have all read the stories about <snip - names of schools currently in the media for discipline issues> -I dont wish to comment on what are ongoing cases but I think it shows that the discipline crisis stretches into middle class schools. At its heart is a lack of respect for Adult authority. Its broader than a school. Also there is a lack of respect for teachers propagated by the Media . The two issues lack of respect for adult authority and teachers are of course inter-twined.

you also have a unhealthy lack of respect for parents from their own off spring, a situation they regrettably helped create themselves. very often you have an unruly teenager who is equally unruly at home and he parents have tried nothing and are ready to give up.

Fuinseog

GarIT wrote: »

What you said is spot on, it highlights the exact problem, the teachers. Its the exact problem but not how you meant it. Teachers that think they deserve respect just for being teachers or even adults. There is no such thing as adult authority. It is completely wrong. Nobody deserves any authority over a child because of their age. When people begin to understand that there will be less trouble. I would have expected a teacher to know better. When teachers start treating the students better they would be shown more respect.

I have also noticed that in school that when a teacher is bad at their job and has trouble teaching there is trouble in the classroom, but then in the next class I could be with the exact same classmates, with a more interesting better teacher and there is no trouble.

how should we define a bad teacher? one who has no control over the class?
one who is ill prepared perhaps, though a teacher could be ill prepared but just shoot the breeze about football with the messers and he would have them on side.
on the other side of things maybe we should talk about 'bad' parents. how are they to be defined?

rainbowtrout

GarIT wrote: »

What you said is spot on, it highlights the exact problem, the teachers. Its the exact problem but not how you meant it. Teachers that think they deserve respect just for being teachers or even adults. There is no such thing as adult authority. It is completely wrong. Nobody deserves any authority over a child because of their age. When people begin to understand that there will be less trouble. I would have expected a teacher to know better. When teachers start treating the students better they would be shown more respect.

I have also noticed that in school that when a teacher is bad at their job and has trouble teaching there is trouble in the classroom, but then in the next class I could be with the exact same classmates, with a more interesting better teacher and there is no trouble.

Really, so children should be free to make decisions to do whatever they like whenever they like???

Most students need to follow a routine, and follow instruction. Without it they don't know what to do. Some students have very little routine, instruction or discipline at home. The ones that can do whatever they like at home because they have none of these things tend to be the ones that play puck in school.

So what exactly do you mean by treating students better? Are you suggesting your human rights are being infringed because you're asked to cooperate and do some work without disrupting other people?

mikemac1

spurious wrote: »

big difference both he and the others saw between their own school days and 'kids today' was the lack of manners/respect/whatever you want to call it.

Every generation says this

Your parents said the same when you were young

Edit, I will add in my CBS it was drilled into us to say please and thank you for everything
If you had to ask the school secretary for something she would not deal with you unless you did.
A habit that's with me still

khan86

GarIT wrote: »

I have also noticed that in school that when a teacher is bad at their job and has trouble teaching there is trouble in the classroom, but then in the next class I could be with the exact same classmates, with a more interesting better teacher and there is no trouble.

That's subjective...not all kids are interested in the same subjects and it is rare that a student has equal interest in all the subjects they take in school. All students have their favorite and least favorite subjects and subjects they excel at better than others. Therefore it depends on the subject and the students individual interest in it when dealing with a disruptive situation. There are plenty of well behaved students who have manners and just get on with the work even in the subjects they find least interesting. The bad mannered ones will act up anyway but even more so during the classes of the subject they dislike (or are weaker at) no matter how "good" (again, subjective) the teacher is at teaching it.

GarIT

Fuinseog wrote: »

GarIT wrote: »

What you said is spot on, it highlights the exact problem, the teachers. Its the exact problem but not how you meant it. Teachers that think they deserve respect just for being teachers or even adults. There is no such thing as adult authority. It is completely wrong. Nobody deserves any authority over a child because of their age. When people begin to understand that there will be less trouble. I would have expected a teacher to know better. When teachers start treating the students better they would be shown more respect.

I have also noticed that in school that when a teacher is bad at their job and has trouble teaching there is trouble in the classroom, but then in the next class I could be with the exact same classmates, with a more interesting better teacher and there is no trouble.

how should we define a bad teacher? one who has no control over the class?
one who is ill prepared perhaps, though a teacher could be ill prepared but just shoot the breeze about football with the messers and he would have them on side.
on the other side of things maybe we should talk about 'bad' parents. how are they to be defined?

I would generally define it as a passive teacher. From my experience I have found that an active teacher that talks for 40 mins (about their subject) and teaches will generally have a better behaved class than a passive teacher that just sits down and says read page x and do question y.

There are certainly other factors including parenting but in one class I have a teacher that is supposedly the best in his subject and we have two of the worst trouble makers in the back of the class and they never do anything.

I'm not a trouble maker at all, on Friday I got an award for never being disciplined by any teacher over the 6 years I've been in the school but even I am starting to feel no respect for a particular teacher in my 2nd favourite subject who just seems to think the course is done so we will just watch movies and do nothing.

For me I listen to teachers who teach and ignore teachers that supervise you doing your own work.

GarIT

rainbowtrout wrote: »

GarIT wrote: »

What you said is spot on, it highlights the exact problem, the teachers. Its the exact problem but not how you meant it. Teachers that think they deserve respect just for being teachers or even adults. There is no such thing as adult authority. It is completely wrong. Nobody deserves any authority over a child because of their age. When people begin to understand that there will be less trouble. I would have expected a teacher to know better. When teachers start treating the students better they would be shown more respect.

I have also noticed that in school that when a teacher is bad at their job and has trouble teaching there is trouble in the classroom, but then in the next class I could be with the exact same classmates, with a more interesting better teacher and there is no trouble.

Really, so children should be free to make decisions to do whatever they like whenever they like???

Most students need to follow a routine, and follow instruction. Without it they don't know what to do. Some students have very little routine, instruction or discipline at home. The ones that can do whatever they like at home because they have none of these things tend to be the ones that play puck in school.

So what exactly do you mean by treating students better? Are you suggesting your human rights are being infringed because you're asked to cooperate and do some work without disrupting other people?

What I mean is every person needs to earn respect. Nobody starts out with respect. Those old teachings are gone from parents but that's probably the worst the parents have done.

I don't feel they should do what they want, but I feel they can be disciplined correctly or incorrectly. There are teachers that say I'm the teacher so you have to do what I say and there's teachers that say, there's 25 other people in the class that want to learn, you have the leaving cert at the end of the year so stop disrupting the class.

The first thing I thing when a teacher tries to claim that they deserve respect is that they must have been brought up with the crazy religious values where someone deserves respect without earning it. I'm polite to everyone but I'm not going to listen to anyone that doesn't deserve it.

GarIT

I think the biggest problem is a false sense of respect and entitlement some teachers have. They were thought with old catholic teachings and ways of living and they just don't understand that them being a teacher means nothing and that they are only equal to everyone else in the room.

I told my parents to f off with their I'm an adult and your parent sh!t€ when a was around 12 or 13 and they wouldn't dare tell me what to do anymore. Since I was around 16 I've done whatever I want whenever I want but I've never done anything stupid because I was well educated by my parents about logical and critical thinking not about and crazy stuff like respect for elders.

I would say a minimum of 50% of students are not religious so your going to find they just don't have those values anymore.

GarIT

khan86 wrote: »

hat's subjective...not all kids are interested in the same subjects and it is rare that a student has equal interest in all the subjects they take in school. All students have their favorite and least favorite subjects and subjects they excel at better than others. Therefore it depends on the subject and the students individual interest in it when dealing with a disruptive situation. There are plenty of well behaved students who have manners and just get on with the work even in the subjects they find least interesting. The bad mannered ones will act up anyway but even more so during the classes of the subject they dislike (or are weaker at) no matter how "good" (again, subjective) the teacher is at teaching it.

I don't think that's true at all, I despise Irish as a LC subject but I think the teacher and classes are great and informative.

The relevant definition of respect is "esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability". That's why I think teachers need to earn respect. A hard working teacher deserves respect. Anyone that claims an intitlement to or expects respect doesn't deserve any at all. I also think some of my own teachers need to learn better English and realise they should look for politeness and stop making themselves look like idiots by using the word respect inappropriately.

cmssjone

Whilst I agree that a letter to the BOM or Principal is a good idea, I am not a permanent teacher and therefore do not want to blacklist myself out of jobs that are coming up in the (near) future. Once I have a job then I will feel secure enough in order to affect change. I have been a teacher for many years and have had very few discipline problems in the past so I am happy that I have a decent range of classroom management strategies that work. The majority of teachers who teach the same problem children as me all have the same issues with them so I know it is not just me.

There is a non-existent behavioural system which is inconsistently followed. It is frustrating to be following what is written down to then see that it is not followed through by management. As stated before, the Principal is not interested in helping staff and has indicated to many staff who complain that it is obviously their fault.

As for the point that the needs of the one supersede the needs of the many. If this really is the case, then the world has gone mad. How can it be right that a small minority of disruptive pupils are allowed to affect the education of over a hundred or more (in each year group)? Schools need to protect the Health and Safety of the majority of their stakeholders. Those that compromise it, whether teacher or pupil, should be removed.

As for union involvement, I was told that there was very little they would do by my rep. This may or may not be true.

The Liberals will splutter that every person is entitled to an education... and they are. However, teachers and pupils are entitled to an environment that is free from abuse (physical or verbal) and conducive to learning. As I said before, this would not be tolerated in any other workplace and the offender swiftly removed.

I also agree that parenting skills (or lack thereof) are contributing to the problem of discipline. If children do not have any boundaries at home they will struggle to conform at school.

vamos!

GarIT wrote: »

I would generally define it as a passive teacher. From my experience I have found that an active teacher that talks for 40 mins (about their subject) and teaches will generally have a better behaved class than a passive teacher that just sits down and says read page x and do question y.

There are certainly other factors including parenting but in one class I have a teacher that is supposedly the best in his subject and we have two of the worst trouble makers in the back of the class and they never do anything.

I'm not a trouble maker at all, on Friday I got an award for never being disciplined by any teacher over the 6 years I've been in the school but even I am starting to feel no respect for a particular teacher in my 2nd favourite subject who just seems to think the course is done so we will just watch movies and do nothing.

For me I listen to teachers who teach and ignore teachers that supervise you doing your own work.

Wow. This is the exact opposite of what teachers are being encouraged to do. It is actually much less labour intensive to just go in and talk but it only suits one style of learner. There are many different learners in the room and I am lucky enough to have students this year who recognise that one teacher has to cater to the needs of 30. They aren't rude or self-absorbed enough to think that it is acceptable for them to decide when they engage with a lesson which contributes their education. Thankfully, they appear to respect boundries, expectations and societal norms, if not always teachers as people. I can't imagine that any of them were so wonderfully mature to tell their parents to f* off as 12 year olds either. I think they respect themselves too much.

Fuinseog

GarIT wrote: »

What I mean is every person needs to earn respect. Nobody starts out with respect. Those old teachings are gone from parents but that's probably the worst the parents have done.

I don't feel they should do what they want, but I feel they can be disciplined correctly or incorrectly. There are teachers that say I'm the teacher so you have to do what I say and there's teachers that say, there's 25 other people in the class that want to learn, you have the leaving cert at the end of the year so stop disrupting the class.

The first thing I thing when a teacher tries to claim that they deserve respect is that they must have been brought up with the crazy religious values where someone deserves respect without earning it. I'm polite to everyone but I'm not going to listen to anyone that doesn't deserve it.

i disagree with this notion of earning their respect. what are you saying, treat the kids with respect and let them treat you like dirt until you are deemed worthy of their respect?

respect for teachers, adults and fellow humans in general should be automatic.

GarIT

Fuinseog wrote: »

I disagree with this notion of earning their respect. what are you saying, treat the kids with respect and let them treat you like dirt until you are deemed worthy of their respect?

respect for teachers, adults and fellow humans in general should be automatic.

When I was saying I told them to f off I meant in relation to the line 'were your parents therefore deserve respect'. I don't cause trouble at home. I just thing saying elders deserve respect is discrimination and I find it evtremely insulting. All a long if a parent said to do something and put across a logical argument I would have listened but if they just said because they are older I told them where to go. I as well as all other students are intelligent young people not mindless sheep.

No, respect and manners are extremely different things. You can be very polite to someone and have no respect for them at all. At the start of a year some students will behave and some won't but every teacher is capible of winning them over. So your saying you respect every person you meet? So that means if you don't know someone at all you admire or look up to them for their actions, persona or abilities? I really hope you are not a teacher.

GarIT

vamos! wrote: »

Wow. This is the exact opposite of what teachers are being encouraged to do. It is actually much less labour intensive to just go in and talk but it only suits one style of learner. There are many different learners in the room and I am lucky enough to have students this year who recognise that one teacher has to cater to the needs of 30. They aren't rude or self-absorbed enough to think that it is acceptable for them to decide when they engage with a lesson which contributes their education. Thankfully, they appear to respect boundries, expectations and societal norms, if not always teachers as people. I can't imagine that any of them were so wonderfully mature to tell their parents to f* off as 12 year olds either. I think they respect themselves too much.

Im surprised at that. I was in school for the last day ever today. In German we just refused to do anything, she tried to sit back and get us to do listening and we all ignored her and just talked, then in maths the teacher talked for the full class about complex numbers and then going through any questions students had and there wasn't a word in the class.

khan86

GarIT wrote: »

I told my parents to f off with their I'm an adult and your parent sh!t€ when a was around 12 or 13 and they wouldn't dare tell me what to do anymore.

You told your parents to fcuk off when you were 12 or 13...well done. Well done for completely undermining your already weak argument. Good job.

vamos!

GarIT wrote: »

Im surprised at that. I was in school for the last day ever today. In German we just refused to do anything, she tried to sit back and get us to do listening and we all ignored her and just talked, then in maths the teacher talked for the full class about complex numbers and then going through any questions students had and there wasn't a word in the class.

You poor pet. Your silly teacher, who is not worthy of any kind of respect,tried to get you to do listening? As in tried to get you to practice an exam section worth 20% or 25% at Leaving Cert, depending on the level you are doing? This is also the section often flagged as a problem area where students miss out on marks., possibly because most students don;t do listening work at home. Well done to you and your cohort for showing that teacher who is the boss. Her and her damned exam preparation ...I really hope the chat you had instead comes up in your aural exam. That will show the qualified individual how to do her job alright! I hope you told her to f off with her teacher nonsense and that you are more than capable of learning a language all by yourself.