Discipline in schools (crisis)

flatbackfour

GarIT wrote: »

I would generally define it as a passive teacher. From my experience I have found that an active teacher that talks for 40 mins (about their subject) and teaches will generally have a better behaved class

Modern educational theory suggests that students should be activley engaged in thier own learning and should be to a great extent autonomous and or peer colabourative learners.

It really has been proven that didactic teaching as you describe is not the optimum way of teaching for the learning needs of students in the 21 century.

than a passive teacher that just sits down and says read page x and do question y.

Althought that kind of teaching is pretty crap too.

and we have two of the worst trouble makers in the back of the class and they never do anything.

I wonder does he or she just let them sit there doing nothing??

For me I listen to teachers who teach and ignore teachers that supervise you doing your own work

The minute you go to college your going to be responsible for doing your own work. No teacher talking for 40 minutes, no one holding your hand. The greatest problem lectures have with 1st years is their inability to be self directed in their learning.

Those teachers who talk for 40 minutes and spoon feed you notes are great. Wait till you get to college. You just wait.

flatbackfour

GarIT wrote: »

I think the biggest problem is a false sense of respect and entitlement some teachers have.

All people are entitled to respect. Its not false its just a decent starting point.

spurious

OK, I'm going to remove the posts that are heading towards personal abuse of a poster.

The world is often very black or white for the young.

Disagree all you want, but attack the post, not the poster.

Powerhouse

GarIT wrote: »

they are only equal to everyone else in the room.

But they are not. For example, they are the only person in the room who is paid to be there. They are the only person in the room who can vote, or be held fully legally responsible for what they do. Trying to posit an argument that children should be let run riot on the basis of equality per se is laughable. When students have to accept responsibility for their behaviour in the same way and to the same extent that a teacher has you can come back to us and make that argument.

Powerhouse

GarIT wrote: »

The first thing I thing when a teacher tries to claim that they deserve respect is that they must have been brought up with the crazy religious values where someone deserves respect without earning it. I'm polite to everyone but I'm not going to listen to anyone that doesn't deserve it.

I think you are getting carried away about respect. Most teachers just want students to shut up and let them teach. I doubt if many would lose too much sleep over what the student thinks privately about them - maybe a few very young and harmless ones but that's about it.

I treat students with a veneer of respect but you wouldn't want to be confusing that with a deep-seated genuine respect for them - I've seen too many of them lying through their teeth and treating their peers with contempt to have very much of that for many of them. In most cases that would be a bridge too far even making allowances for their lack of experience and perspective, but they are entitled to be treated well in the classroom - that's the deal.

The idea that a teacher and 30 students all have to strive to earn each other's respect before a proper class can happen would make a nice topic of abstract discussion for some I'm sure, but it has no practical application in the classroom. It will be interesting to see how you will survive in, say, interviews in the future when you are playing snakes on your phone because the interviewer has not managed to capture your respect the second you walk into the room so you refuse to listen to them. My money would be on you leaving your principles behind the door and adopting a diplomatic 'respect' in such a situation but time will tell if you manage to live your life in a world of shades of grey like the rest of us, or if it remains black and white.

P.S. What religion has to do with anything I'm not sure but you don't seriously believe that moral values cannot exist outside of a religious context do you?

GarIT

Powerhouse wrote: »

I think you are getting carried away about respect. Most teachers just want students to shut up and let them teach. I doubt if many would lose too much sleep over what the student thinks privately about them - maybe a few very young and harmless ones but that's about it.

I treat students with a veneer of respect but you wouldn't want to be confusing that with a deep-seated genuine respect for them - I've seen too many of them lying through their teeth and treating their peers with contempt to have very much of that for many of them. In most cases that would be a bridge too far even making allowances for their lack of experience and perspective, but they are entitled to be treated well in the classroom - that's the deal.

The idea that a teacher and 30 students all have to strive to earn each other's respect before a proper class can happen would make a nice topic of abstract discussion for some I'm sure, but it has no practical application in the classroom. It will be interesting to see how you will survive in, say, interviews in the future when you are playing snakes on your phone because the interviewer has not managed to capture your respect the second you walk into the room so you refuse to listen to them. My money would be on you leaving your principles behind the door and adopting a diplomatic 'respect' in such a situation but time will tell if you manage to live your life in a world of shades of grey like the rest of us, or if it remains black and white.

P.S. What religion has to do with anything I'm not sure but you don't seriously believe that moral values cannot exist outside of a religious context do you?

You can conduct a class properly without respect. Most people on this thread don't seem to understand the word respect which is similar to most teachers.

In regards to religion, I meant that it is a religious teaching to respect everyone regardless, while other more modern people may think that only people that earn respect should get it.

IMO Respect and just being nice are very different. I prefer to take things literally rather than however I feel like. Unfortunately I can't reply properly now as I have the Leaving in 10 days.

seavill

GarIT wrote: »

You can conduct a class properly without respect. Most people on this thread don't seem to understand the word respect which is similar to most teachers.

In regards to religion, I meant that it is a religious teaching to respect everyone regardless, while other more modern people may think that only people that earn respect should get it.

IMO Respect and just being nice are very different. I prefer to take things literally rather than however I feel like. Unfortunately I can't reply properly now as I have the Leaving in 10 days.

I must say I find some of your views very baffling, I am not one bit religious and have never been but would be of the opinion that you treat everyone with respect until they deserve any different.

I would have to say that I could never have respect for anyone who told their parents to **** off whatever their opinion or action. These are the people that brought you into the world, looked after you while growing up, fed you, clothed you, helped you all your life, if you don't agree that teachers deserve respect surely all that your parents have done deserves respect.

You may not agree with them and their views but everyone has a different opinion, telling them to **** off for having an opinion that differed to yours is absolutely shocking. As I said I could never have respect for you knowing this, if this is how you treat your parents I can only imagine how you treat teachers, cleaners etc in the school, so no wonder others don't treat you with the respect you think you deserve

Delphi91

GarIT wrote: »

You can conduct a class properly without respect.

Really?????? I SERIOUSLY doubt that.

Let's look at what the OED defines as Respect -

(1) admiration felt towards a person or thing that has good qualities or achievements; politeness arising from this. (2)Attention, consideration, showing respect for people's feelings etc.....

The corner stone of any class is respect, mutual respect. Show me any class without mutual respect and I'll show you a class where there are discipline/behaviour issues. I'm not saying that all mis-behaviour is caused by a lack of respect, there can be other reasons, but I've been at the job long enough (>25 years) to know that a class where respect doesn't exist is a class where there will be discipline issues.

In regards to religion, I meant that it is a religious teaching to respect everyone regardless, while other more modern people may think that only people that earn respect should get it.

Respect has nothing to do with religion. It's a philospohical concept and exists entirely outside religion. The fact that it is focused on by religions does not make it a religious teaching.

GarIT

Delphi91 wrote: »

The corner stone of any class is respect, mutual respect. Show me any class without mutual respect and I'll show you a class where there are discipline/behaviour issues. I'm not saying that all mis-behaviour is caused by a lack of respect, there can be other reasons, but I've been at the job long enough (>25 years) to know that a class where respect doesn't exist is a class where there will be discipline
Respect has nothing to do with religion. It's a philospohical concept and exists entirely outside religion. The fact that it is focused on by religions does not make it a religious teaching.

I don't think this is going to get anywhere. I think that there is a big difference between acting respectfully and having respect. I think that old people thinking they deserve respect because of their age is itself disrespectful and highly offensive. I'm not going to change my views and if anyone tells me that they deserve more respect that I do I will contoinue to tell them what I think of them.

I believe there are severe ammounts of discrimination towards young people in Ireland and this is very clear especially amongst teachers in a classroom situation. An example would be a student being punished for using a phone in class while a teacher can do it on a daily basis with no sanctions. That is blatant discrimination.

The only actual relevant thing out of all this is that I find that there is less disruuption in classes where the teacher gets involved and doesn't just sit back. There is also less disruption in classes where the teacher follows the school rules and surprisingly as well as possibly wrongly, where the teacher is well presented. Everything else I have said is probably irrelevant and pointless to discuss.

GarIT

seavill wrote: »

You may not agree with them and their views but everyone has a different opinion, telling them to **** off for having an opinion that differed to yours is absolutely shocking. As I said I could never have respect for you knowing this, if this is how you treat your parents I can only imagine how you treat teachers, cleaners etc in the school, so no wonder others don't treat you with the respect you think you deserve

I could never agree with or even just not oppose an opnion that discriminates against one group of people. I can't see any difference between someone saying do what I told you to because you're black and do what I told you to because you're young. The latter is accepted in current society but I think it should be Illegal just as the former is. There will always be situations where one person has authroity over the other but age should never be used as a relevant factor.

As I said before Myself and approx 15 other students were given awards for never getting in any trouble in school. From that I think its fair to conclude I treat people with enough courtesy.

Delphi91

GarIT wrote: »

In German we just refused to do anything, she tried to sit back and get us to do listening and we all ignored her and just talked...

GarIT wrote: »

I think that there is a big difference between acting respectfully and having respect.

Was the situation above an example of acting respectfully or having respect??

I believe there are severe ammounts of discrimination towards young people in Ireland and this is very clear especially amongst teachers in a classroom situation. An example would be a student being punished for using a phone in class while a teacher can do it on a daily basis with no sanctions. That is blatant discrimination.

That is an issue which can and should be approached through your student council in the school. However, I agree whole heartedly with you. I don't agree with having an approach to an issue in a school that is then ignored by the staff just because "we're staff and school rules apply to students" - chewing gum, using mobile phones, etc.

The only actual relevant thing out of all this is that I find that there is less disruuption in classes where the teacher gets involved and doesn't just sit back.

Totally agree. I can think of one situation in my school where two teachers who have the same class get two totally different reactions from the class. One has virtually no control - the students can do what they like. In the other class, they are well behaved and do fantastic work. The obvious difference is the teaching style, preparation, presentation of material and engagement of the pupils.

There is also less disruption in classes where the teacher follows the school rules and surprisingly as well as possibly wrongly, where the teacher is well presented...

I'm not sure that there's a correlation/link between teacher appearance and levels of indiscipline.

Fuinseog

i find the whole issue of respect is influenced by parents. if they have no respect for teachers why would their kids?
I also find that Eastern European kids tend to show more respect.

seavill

GarIT wrote: »

I could never agree with or even just not oppose an opnion that discriminates against one group of people. I can't see any difference between someone saying do what I told you to because you're black and do what I told you to because you're young. The latter is accepted in current society but I think it should be Illegal just as the former is. There will always be situations where one person has authroity over the other but age should never be used as a relevant factor.

As I said before Myself and approx 15 other students were given awards for never getting in any trouble in school. From that I think its fair to conclude I treat people with enough courtesy.

No point trying to discuss anything with you we are all wrong you are right. Lets get back to a proper discussion your points have been made over and over and we are slightly going off topic

Powerhouse

Delphi91 wrote: »

That is an issue which can and should be approached through your student council in the school. However, I agree whole heartedly with you. I don't agree with having an approach to an issue in a school that is then ignored by the staff just because "we're staff and school rules apply to students" - chewing gum, using mobile phones, etc.

I have some sympathy with this view but only some. A teacher should not be and have no need to be on a phone during class, but this should not be confused with the proposition that the teacher and students must adhere to the same rules in all respects.

Optics come into it to an obvious extent and certain behaviour can make life more difficult for a teacher in terms of disciplining students/classes. But putting out the notion that teachers and students are equals and must abide by the same rules without exception is also undermining teachers.

Let's not be silly here - at the end of the day teachers are employees, and students are students. Teachers are adults, and as such, have both responsibilities and rights that students do not have. We are not talking about equals. That's why teachers do not wear the school uniform (which would be the obvious corollary to what you are saying). Students with a sense of enitilement above and beyond need to accept this.

Delphi91

Powerhouse wrote: »

I have some sympathy with this view but only some. A teacher should not be and have no need to be on a phone during class, but this should not be confused with the proposition that the teacher and students must adhere to the same rules in all respects.

Optics come into it to an obvious extent and certain behaviour can make life more difficult for a teacher in terms of disciplining students/classes. But putting out the notion that teachers and students are equals and must abide by the same rules without exception is also undermining teachers.

Let's not be silly here - at the end of the day teachers are employees, and students are students. Teachers are adults, and as such, have both responsibilities and rights that students do not have. We are not talking about equals. That's why teachers do not wear the school uniform (which would be the obvious corollary to what you are saying). Students with a sense of enitilement above and beyond need to accept this.

My issue is when the student says "Why should I not be using my phone in class, Ms. Bloggs was on hers in class yesterday"? Or "We're not allowed to chew chewing gum in school but Mr Smith is always doing it", "Why do I have to be on time for class, Miss Murphy is NEVER on time?" etc, etc. What do I answer? "Sorry the rules only apply to students"?

It makes it awkward for management/teachers to impose rules when teachers do the opposite at times. It's often a case of "do as I say, not as I do"!

I'm not saying that they're not allowed to, but a little common sense should prevail. Chew the gum on your way home from school in the car. Take/make the calls in the staffroom out of sight of the students, etc.

We have a rule that says chewing gum is forbidden in the school yet I've seen the Principal chewing gum around the school building during the day - what message does that send out? We have a rule that says mobile phones are not allowed in school yet I've seen teachers take calls in class and then walk out of the class to answer the phone. We have rules about punctuality yet I have one teacher on staff who has no problem being 10 mins late for class yet kicks up holy murder if a kid is late for class, etc.

Its hard to instill respect, etc when there are double-standards. One often wonders who the adults are at times!!

Flashgordon197

GarIT wrote: »

When I was saying I told them to f off I meant in relation to the line 'were your parents therefore deserve respect'. I don't cause trouble at home. I just thing saying elders deserve respect is discrimination and I find it evtremely insulting. All a long if a parent said to do something and put across a logical argument I would have listened but if they just said because they are older I told them where to go. I as well as all other students are intelligent young people not mindless sheep.

No, respect and manners are extremely different things. You can be very polite to someone and have no respect for them at all. At the start of a year some students will behave and some won't but every teacher is capible of winning them over. So your saying you respect every person you meet? So that means if you don't know someone at all you admire or look up to them for their actions, persona or abilities? I really hope you are not a teacher.

I have to disagree with you. You obviously have no real day to day involvement in schools otherwise you would realise how misguided you views are. If I as a teacher make a reasonable request to a student then it should be followed immediately so long as the request was given politely. If you stopped to explain the bleeding obvious logic of most requests -you would never get to do anything. ie stop talking! Take off a jacket. Open your books.etc. If you actually dealt with kids you would realise what I mean.

BUt students will often ignore a reasonable request (even simple ones) and if they dont know you (say you are supervising them) then you sometimes have to break a blood vessel getting them to give a modicum of respect.
Years ago an adult on the street could ask a child to stop behaviour that was inappropriate (hassling other kids/adults) but now most adults would not risk this because of the torrent of abuse they would receive even in middle class areas. If you want too see another generation of head up their arses /overtly precious kids who need to receive therapy because an adult shouted at them after several polite requests-go for it!

Treating kids exactly like adults when they dont have maturity and when you dont have a limitless amount of time-is a recipe for disaster.

Flashgordon197

Delphi91 wrote: »

My issue is when the student says "Why should I not be using my phone in class, Ms. Bloggs was on hers in class yesterday"? Or "We're not allowed to chew chewing gum in school but Mr Smith is always doing it", "Why do I have to be on time for class, Miss Murphy is NEVER on time?" etc, etc. What do I answer? "Sorry the rules only apply to students"?

It makes it awkward for management/teachers to impose rules when teachers do the opposite at times. It's often a case of "do as I say, not as I do"!

I'm not saying that they're not allowed to, but a little common sense should prevail. Chew the gum on your way home from school in the car. Take/make the calls in the staffroom out of sight of the students, etc.

We have a rule that says chewing gum is forbidden in the school yet I've seen the Principal chewing gum around the school building during the day - what message does that send out? We have a rule that says mobile phones are not allowed in school yet I've seen teachers take calls in class and then walk out of the class to answer the phone. We have rules about punctuality yet I have one teacher on staff who has no problem being 10 mins late for class yet kicks up holy murder if a kid is late for class, etc.

Its hard to instill respect, etc when there are double-standards. One often wonders who the adults are at times!!

Well there is a difference. School is my place of work. I might the odd time have to take a call from my family or even a school related call. I would not put teachers and pupils on an equal footing-its a recipe for chaos. Sure teachers should not be hypocrites but in any other work place would we be arguing about this?? If your boss took out his phone during a meeting and previously had said no phones at meetings-would you seriously challenge him? No you wouldnt but for some reason schools are presented as a democracy with student councils,parents councils etc. You should have a clear line of authority and if kids cant cope with occasional hypocrisy-best of luck in real life. Bill Gates said-if you thought your teachers were bastards-head out to the real world and meet some real ones!