reinforcing recall

Dirk Gently

One of my dogs (belgian shepherd / collie cross I think) is very active and can run forever and a day. I usually bring him out early or late and let him off in isolated areas. I have a lab who I let off too and they both have good re-call. The problem is the shepherd will play deaf if he takes an interest in another dog and he can cover a lot of ground in seconds, he's lightening fast. He's not aggressive, but he is big and can be a bit intimidating when running at full speed towards a dog even if he just plays once he reaches the dog. I hate when other people allow their dogs to do this when mine are on lead so dont want to be guilty of it myself.

Anyway, I can't catch the fecker when he decides to bolt and 95% recall isn't good enough. Is there anything I can do to get him 100% on recall or will I just have to keep him on lead full time from now on. It would be an awful shame not to let him run as he's very energetic and agile and as I say, 95% there on recall.

tk123

Have you tried using a whistle? I find it much more effective than calling especially at a distance. Just make sure you condition the dog at home first so whistle = a treat/praise

Dirk Gently

yeah I have a whistle, works 100% on the lab, the shepherd will occasionally ignore it though (as in turn, hear it and then carry on regardless).

The lab is very food orientated so she'll bust a gut to get back for a nibble of a bit of cheese. The shepherd isn't big into food though so if he sees something interesting he'll make his way towards it as the reward for coming back isn't that big of a deal for him.

Zapperzy

Dirk Gently wrote: »

yeah I have a whistle, works 100% on the lab, the shepherd will occasionally ignore it though (as in turn, hear it and then carry on regardless).

The lab is very food orientated so she'll bust a gut to get back for a nibble of a bit of cheese. The shepherd isn't big into food though so if he sees something interesting he'll make his way towards it as the reward for coming back isn't that big of a deal for him.

Increase the reward, is there anything he really really likes? Squeaky toys, tennis balls, teddies, tug ropes, whatever it is only use it to reward recall so he doesn't get bored of it. Or what about running like a lunatic in the opposite direction waving your arms about?

Dirk Gently

Zapperzy wrote: »

is there anything he really really likes?

yeah, chasing other dogs. He's really not food orientated, or toys. He'll come back most times, with the exception of a far away dog he feels the need to run off to investigate.

Zapperzy wrote: »

Or what about running like a lunatic in the opposite direction waving your arms about?

yeah, turning and walking away does work sometimes but there's always the odd time where he's focused on running towards another dog and nothing will change his mind.


I think I'm at the stage where I just have to keep him on lead all the time. He's too fast and can be intimidating to anyone who doesn't know he's just going to play. Strange thing is he'll be grand if a dog is beside him, it's when he spots one far off on the horizon he has to go check it out, and he doesn't come back until I eventually catch up (when he stops at the other dog) with him and get the lead on him.

baords dyslexic

OP you didn't mention how old the dog is? I have a GSD x and people often ask me if he's a Belgium Shepard, he's just 12months this week and I have exactly the same issue. Food treats work fine for everything except stopping him running up to other dogs. He loves to play ball but will just pick it up and take it with him when he sees another dog, I may try Zapperzy's idea of a tug rope but as all other areas of obedience are slowly improving I am hoping he's going to "grow out of it" .

Dirk Gently

yeah he's a young cross, about 16 months, highly active and intelligent.
pics of him are in my sig if you want to compare with your own.

There's a few theories on what he might be crossed with but he looks very much like the Tervuren type belgian shepherd and I know there is a pure breed in the area not far from me and I got him from a local rescue. He came from a litter of 6 or 7 and no one is sure exactly what the cross is. He has all the charateristics, fast, agile, runs in big circles, changes direction without slowing down, only his temperment doesn't match as he can be a bit nervous, but he was a rescue dog so he got a bad start which could account for that.

baords dyslexic

Dirk Gently wrote: »

yeah he's a young cross, about 16 months, highly active and intelligent.
pics of him are in my sig if you want to compare with your own.

There's a few theories on what he might be crossed with but he looks very much like the Tervuren type belgian shepherd and I know there is a pure breed in the area not far from me and I got him from a local rescue. He came from a litter of 6 or 7 and no one is sure exactly what the cross is. He has all the charateristics, fast, agile, runs in big circles, changes direction without slowing down, only his temperment doesn't match as he can be a bit nervous, but he was a rescue dog so he got a bad start which could account for that.

Just turned on signatures to take a look, cute dog, I don't think anyone is going to be too upset if thats running towards them, nothing like ours, which looks like a massive black long haired GSD without the draggy rear end 30inch on the shoulder and approaching 50Kg's (must try and get him weighed). People probably see him and think its not a GSD but looks like one but don't know what a Belgium Shepherd looks like so make the wrong connection, then again some people think he looks like a wolf.

Training in other areas is going great he doesn't touch our chickens (not sure if I should let him chase the fox off but he does /:o) and he used to try and chase flocks of birds, well stalk them, you can see the head go down below the shoulders when he sees them now but now a command "bad" or "no chickens" has him stop straight away.

kopfan77

Zapperzy wrote: »

Increase the reward, is there anything he really really likes? Squeaky toys, tennis balls, teddies, tug ropes, whatever it is only use it to reward recall so he doesn't get bored of it. Or what about running like a lunatic in the opposite direction waving your arms about?

LOL as I just got a mental picture of me doing this for my GSD....have the same problem and would be slightly worried that the men in white coats would be coming for me if i was seen doing this

Dirk Gently

baords dyslexic wrote: »

Just turned on signatures to take a look, cute dog, I don't think anyone is going to be too upset if thats running towards them, nothing like ours, which looks like a massive black long haired GSD without the draggy rear end 30inch on the shoulder and approaching 50Kg's (must try and get him weighed). People probably see him and think its not a GSD but looks like one but don't know what a Belgium Shepherd looks like so make the wrong connection, then again some people think he looks like a wolf.

Training in other areas is going great he doesn't touch our chickens (not sure if I should let him chase the fox off but he does /:o) and he used to try and chase flocks of birds, well stalk them, you can see the head go down below the shoulders when he sees them now but now a command "bad" or "no chickens" has him stop straight away.

Yeah, mine likes to stalk too. head goes down and he snakes along the ground. He's pretty good at it. I have his id on a little chain from his collar so it rattles, give the birds a heads up he's in the area.

yours sounds like a Groenendael, although 50kg is pretty big. They're usually a mid to large dog, not in the 50kg range though. its one of the 4 belgian shepherd types. some pet stores have weighing machines you sit your dog on, I know maxi zoo have anyway. Mine is 30kg, but i reckon what ever he's crossed with keeps the weight down. He's athletic but doesn't put on weight, the more I feed him the more he'll just burn it off. 30kg seems to be his optimum weight.

Whispered

I'm feeling a bit defeated tonight. We always bring the boys off somewhere rural and off the beaten track so they can have a good run around, recall has always been 99% with the older one and 100% with the younger (I'd trust Phoe to stay with me no matter what the circumstances).

2 weeks ago Harley went swimming after ducks, off he bobbed down the river after them completely ignoring us. We were going along the river bank calling him, he'd look from us to the ducks and keep swimming. He only lost interest when they flew off.

THEN yesterday :mad:. Harley spotted a woman walking towards us with 2 small dogs off the lead. The little brat saw the other 2 dogs and no amount of calling could stop him, toys were squeaked and chicken lumps thrown at him, but everything was ignored. Worse, the small dog went for him while we were running up to grab him. I can't blame the smallie lashing out to be honest, protecting himself from my big lump I'd guess.

Thankfully Harley only stood over him and didn't retaliate, if he had, we'd have been in trouble. The other owner was fab. I asked was she and her two ok, and she apologised to us for hers having attacked. Which was really not necessary, hers were with her, mine had ran over. I'm so grateful she was so good about it.

Todays walk involved a 5m lead and a frustrated dog! We have to start from scratch with his recall and to be honest I'm feeling very daunted. He's 4 years old and this is only happening recently. I think he's learning that there are no real consequences to not coming back and the rewards are not all that interesting anymore, so if ducks or other dogs look more exciting, well then he's going after them.

I've never trained him to a whistle, so I think I'm going to start that tomorrow, just around the house. I plan to use it in games like hide and seek as well as just randomly calling him for food with it. I'm not sure what else to do, but we'll figure it out. Until he's back to being reliable he's only getting off for a swim!

Dirk Gently

I feel your pain. ducks and other dogs is what gets my fella too. I have him whistle trained but he just stops for a second when he hears it then continues on after the duck. I just have to keep him on lead now because he's too fast to catch off lead. My treats cant compete with live duck. I don't know what to do, he understands the commands and the whistle, he just chooses to ignore it the odd time.

planetX

I feel your pain too - my dog spotted a hare while he was off lead and there was no getting him back initially. Fortunately he broke off the chase at the edge of the field and came back, but I feel like a failure - despite all the training he was doing what he was born to do, and I feel like a coursing participant... my most hated activity:mad:

tk123

LOL we're the same tbh - he'll ignore me and jump into the river!! Especially if somebody is throwing in bread and then we get filthy looks! :rolleyes: Once I get a certain distance away from him though and blow the whistle he knows it's time to come out but the amount of times he's jumped in now after bloody bread - twice in the rain with his little coat on lol! :rolleyes:
I had to retrain him after op#1 when he'd been restricted for 3 months and I found using a different phrase worked very well so that might be an idea. Also it can be easier said than done lol but when they do come back loads of praise to reinforce coming back gets a treat.


:rolleyes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awI8RhPZ40I :rolleyes:

EDIT and what annoys me most about him diving into the river is that he has to be lifted into the hydro pool lol - he won't get in himself!

bluecherry74

I'm having recall problems too :mad: My pup is almost 9 months old and getting a bit too confident. When he was younger he'd come back no problem, now he ignores me and I have to call him a few times before he'll come back. And if he sees another dog or a person... forget about it, he's gone.

I've gone back to carrying Dubliner cheese on our walks and it is helping a little, but he still prefers running after other dogs to eating cheese. I really need to get this under control... My other dog can't be let off the lead at all (she's deaf) and I walk her on a retractable lead when I'm in the woods/field. I can't imagine trying to walk both of them on retractable leads!!

Dirk Gently

bluecherry74 wrote: »

I've gone back to carrying Dubliner cheese on our walks

I dont go anywhere without a pocket full of Kilmeaden. costs me a ****ing fortune walking them.

The Sweeper

I feel everyone's pain. Getting some exercise vs perfect recall is a difficult one. My dog only goes off leash at a long stretch of dog-friendly beach near me, and only then because 99% of owners on that beach won't lose their reason if a dog runs up to them. (It'd be like taking your dog to the off leash dog park and being upset if other dogs approached you.) I can't call Gus away on first call unless I'm top of my 'excited me!' game, and have the best stick to throw for him. Even then he has selective deafness.

In other places if you really want your dog off leash, you need to work on them sticking by your side and there are specific training techniques you can use for that using motivators like food and toys - the dog only gets the food and/or toys when heeling closely. This sort of training is a step up tbh - it involves consistent reward but only for very specific behaviour, e.g. you only get the treat if you're in EXACTLY the right place by my heel.

While you're working on that you can use an enforcer on walks - in my case that's a 20ft horse's lunge rein. Clip the lunge rein to the collar and allow it to trail. Never pick it up and pull the dog using this rein - it's your security blanket and that's all it is. If you want your dog on-leash, clip his leash to his collar as well as the lunge rein.

When you take his leash off, the lunge rein is insurance - if he starts to look at something with interest, you try and break that interest with your training command to heel and with treats or your positive enforcers. If he ignores you, or starts to run, instead of chasing you can simply step on the lunge rein.

It's an unfortuante side effect that your dog will essentially correct themselves when they joyously bounce to the end of the rein you've stepped on and it snaps taut, but as they stand there looking a bit sheepish after getting to the end of the rein, you call them to heel again without taking your foot off the rein (but don't pull or lift the rein). When they trot back to you, you treat and praise and then carry on walking, still allowing the rein to trail.

A fabric lunge rein in a tack shop shouldn't be expensive - far cheaper than a dog leash of equivalent length. (Though in truth any long piece of rope could be fashioned into a security leash in this way, though you might look like a bit of a pikey with a length of washing line hanging off your dog's collar...)

boardbrowser

here is a great dvd for recall issues. 'Leslie Nelson- really reliable recall' dvd.
Good foundation for building a recall, use of jackpots and emergency recall techniques. worth a watch. all dog friendly training methods incorporating both food/toy rewards.