ComReg Complaints - SMS from Eircom Landlines to Three Customers (House Alarms)

Max Power 2010

To be 100% honest, there is obviously something going on between Eircom & Three.

All THREE need to do is make a configuration change on their network to allow SMS from Eircom, Eircom use the same type of message centres as any other operator so their is no difference in technology here, so nobody has to upgrade anything, its just a simple configuration change.

I wonder if THREE are trying to charge Eircom to allow their SMS terminate on the 3 network.

Midnight Sundance

To add to everything that everyone else has said, take into mind that if in the future you want the service and switch provider , it still won't work.
I was with Vodafone for years but had an 083 number, it didn't work. Had to change my entire number and get an 087 number (same acc) to get the service.

So jf you think you won't always stay with three , keep this in mind if you dont want the hassle of changing numbers.

Zab

I still haven't seen anything to absolve Eircom. It seems clear that you're getting better customer service from them, but that isn't directly related to the underlying issue and they haven't given any explanation why they can't sort this out with 3 themselves. Eircom's language is better but what they're saying is basically the same: the other guy has to sort it out for reasons we're not going to tell you.

Complain to comreg about both of them.

foggy_lad

jeckle wrote: »

Eircom are not being paid for the alarm. It is not an Eircom alarm system. This has nothing to do with Eircom Phonewatch.

Regardless of the monitoring of the alarm etc, Eircom are being paid for the text/sms message that should be recieved by the three number.

Max Power 2010 wrote: »

To be 100% honest, there is obviously something going on between Eircom & Three.

All THREE need to do is make a configuration change on their network to allow SMS from Eircom, Eircom use the same type of message centres as any other operator so their is no difference in technology here, so nobody has to upgrade anything, its just a simple configuration change.

I wonder if THREE are trying to charge Eircom to allow their SMS terminate on the 3 network.

Before one company can recieve sms or mms or calls from any other company there has to be contracts in place to cover the airtime/data associated with these messages and calls, obvioulsy there are no contracts in place between eircom and Three for SMS originating from Landlines but this may well be an area that Eircom want to get out of?

Contracts currently in place covering landline SMS to other networks may have had a 10, 15 or even 20 year timeframe because at one time SMS from your landline was seen as one of the features of the future but it is now seriously in decline.

jeckle

foggy_lad wrote: »

Before one company can recieve sms or mms or calls from any other company there has to be contracts in place to cover the airtime/data associated with these messages and calls, obvioulsy there are no contracts in place between eircom and Three for SMS originating from Landlines but this may well be an area that Eircom want to get out of?

Contracts currently in place covering landline SMS to other networks may have had a 10, 15 or even 20 year timeframe because at one time SMS from your landline was seen as one of the features of the future but it is now seriously in decline.

Yes, this is what I suspect the real problem is, but currently 02, Vodafone & Meteor customers can receive SMS from landline, which gives them an unfair advantage over Three in that regard. This, I would have thought would give Three reason to raise the issue with ComReg on the grounds of unfair competition. It's pointless complaining to Eircom & expect them to complain about themselves. It's really up to Three - I know for a fact that they have lost customers over this, which doesn't seem to bother them. They are concentrating on luring people in with ads for AYCE data & free iPhone 4S's. But, if you don't push companies to do something they never will, especially companies who have a strong presence on boards & actively encouarge feedback & suggestions.

Of course it doesn't help when people twist things around & make wild allegations about you demanding confidendial business information, when all that was asked was a simple date. They will have to supply the date to ComReg anyway.

I do realise that Three are not fully at fault here & frankly I'm not interested in the fault ratio's. The matter is now with ComReg, so assuming that they do what they are meant to do & depending on what reply they receive from Three it's up to them to decide whether or not to question Eircom. I was surprised when ComReg told me a few weeks ago that mine was the only complaint that they had received & that up to that they were totally unaware of the problem (which I find hard to believe as I had originally brought it to their attention in Sept 2011 & at least one other poster has said that they complained to them in August 2011, but neither of us followed the initial complaint up), so time will tell & if & when ComReg get back to me it will be interesting to see what they have to say about the unfair competition element.

The problem is most people don't complain & just accept & move on. I can understand why they don't complain, especially after the grief I have been given here on boards for highlighting a genuine issue. Luckily I don't take these things personally. People seem more interested in tearing your complaint apart instead of attempting to understand the importance of the actual issue, & more importantly of getting it resolved. Of course, if current rumours are correct Hutchison’s 3 Ireland could soon own Eircom, so if that goes ahead I wonder would that make any difference to their present customers being able to receive landline SMS messages from their new customers.

BrianD

jeckle wrote: »

Of course it is, I don't think anyone needs this to be pointed out to them in fairness. But what Dav neglected to mention is that unsuspecting customers port from 02, Vodafone & Meteor could well be tied into 24 month contracts, & had assumed that they would continue to receive the same service on Three don't find out that they can't receive texts until they arrive home to find their homes or premises have been burgaled, or to get a call from A&E to discover their elderly parent has been attacked & in distress. I can't find any warning that Three don't support landline SMS on the Three website.

So, as nice as is to recieve advice such as Dav's he doesn't offer any as regards the ugly bit i.e. shelling out hundreds to get out of the contract. So, it's worthwhile pointing out that things are usually not as simple as you might think. Their are other factors involved.

Can you use a different system for your alarm. I would have thought that having a mobile GSM solution to send the msg or is the msg sent from a monitoring location?

I would have thought that both parties would have to put in their T&C's that this service is not supported.

jeckle

BrianD wrote: »

Can you use a different system for your alarm. I would have thought that having a mobile GSM solution to send the msg or is the msg sent from a monitoring location?

I would have thought that both parties would have to put in their T&C's that this service is not supported.

No, there's no monitoring involved, which was the reason for the text dialler. A GSM dialler could be installed, but this would be added unnecessary expense to Three customers.

Although it is an option, it's a workaround rather than a solution, plus the fact that the text dialler works fine as it is, so the cost of the text dialler added to the cost of the GSM dialler could well amount to or go a long way towards the cost to buy out a Three contract.

BrianD

jeckle wrote: »

No, there's no monitoring involved, which was the reason for the text dialler. A GSM dialler could be installed, but this would be added unnecessary expense to Three customers.

Although it is an option, it's a workaround rather than a solution, plus the fact that the text dialler works fine as it is, so the cost of the text dialler added to the cost of the GSM dialler could well amount to or go a long way towards the cost to buy out a Three contract.

I understand that the GSM solution is better in that it's not dependent on land lines that could be cut but it depends on what you are protecting.

Another poster made suggestions of old people lying on floors beaten up. I wouldn't be relying on a SMS to save them in the first place. If one is going to rely on SMS as a core function of a security solution, surely you can't presume that it will work universally and that you must verify?

I would think it's important that both Eircom and Three flag to consumers that this interoperability does not work. So should the alarm system supplier.

jeckle

BrianD wrote:

I understand that the GSM solution is better in that it's not dependent on land lines that could be cut but it depends on what you are protecting.

Yes, & the GSM solution workaround involving added expense to Three customers (02, Vodafone or Meteor customers don't need to go to this added expense) is also dependent on GSM network coverage & the SIM being topped up. Neither options would be 100% foolproof, so all you can do is try & any system is better than no system IMO. As I said, in my case the system works perfectly well apart from due to the fact that I'm a Three customer I can't receive the texts from the text dialler that other nominated people who are customers of other networks can receive from the same text dialler.

BrianD wrote:

Another poster made suggestions of old people lying on floors beaten up. I wouldn't be relying on a SMS to save them in the first place. If one is going to rely on SMS as a core function of a security solution, surely you can't presume that it will work universally and that you must verify?

Zooming in or concentrating on one example (which you may find an extreme one & is worst case scenario) detracts from the main issue. The example of elderly people was just that: an example, not to be confused with the main issue which is the fact that Three customers are unable to receive Eircom SMS messages , whereas 02, Meteor & Vodafone customers can. Whether the SMS is to invite someone to a party, advise of alarm activation or anything else is not the core issue here.

BrianD wrote:

I would think it's important that both Eircom and Three flag to consumers that this interoperability does not work.

So would I, that's why I started the thread, which has been moved to this forum. As I said I'm not interested in blame ratio's. Three have been totally un-co-operative. Eircom have not been so far. I have raised the question of warning customers to ComReg, so hopefully as regulators they will be able to at least do something about this.

BrianD wrote:

So should the alarm system supplier.

I'm sure that they would if they could get some clarity on the matter, but they can't, or at least the ones that have attempted to on boards have run into the same brick wall that I & other Three customers have.

Jesus Christ

I can confirm that a GSM dialler is quite an expensive addon, when last I looked a GSM dialler for a HKC system was in the order of 3 or 400 euros. It's also worth adding that GSM is also susceptible to attack, via RF overload.

This is bad form on the part of Three and Eircom, and stinks of classic inter-operator rivalry and bitching. I think it's unfair to attack the OP for their efforts to try and resolve this issue, it seems clear that bringing ComReg into play somehow is the only way forward. If it means a little bit of fudging, so be it, the operators are fully qualified to recognise it, what with being experts themselves.

RangeR

What most of you fail to realise is simple Business Economics. Chances are, Three made a business decision NOT to interoperate with eircom landline SMS as the ratio of expenditure:revenue is just too damn high.

SMS is dying. It's no longer the cash cow it used to be. It may not totally die, but it's a shadow of it's former self. There is fook all money in this platform. Asking a company to implement hardware for this interop is like asking them to burn 10's of thousands in wasted hardware.

This is just not going to happen. Too few people want it. There would be near 0 income for it.

drunkmonkey

Ranger I think the people who had a combined €48 million worth of their goods stolen from their homes last year might not see it the same way you do.
There is a demand for it, regardless what you seem to think.

BrianD

Surely there is an onus on the alarm supplier/installer to flag this issue up during the sales process? It would be deceptive of them if they didn't.

drunkmonkey

BrianD wrote: »

Surely there is an onus on the alarm supplier/installer to flag this issue up during the sales process? It would be deceptive of them if they didn't.

You could have had the alarm installed 5 years ago and were with o2, then you decided to change mobile networks and only then do you know it won't work with 3. The installer would have no idea your going to switch mobile networks in the future. Some installers warn people they can't move to 3 ever or that if there with 3 it won't work.

RangeR

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Ranger I think the people who had a combined €48 million worth of their goods stolen from their homes last year might not see it the same way you do.
There is a demand for it, regardless what you seem to think.

People relying on SMS alerts for goods worth a combined €48 million, should re-evaluate their security process.

In ANY environment, even with interop in place, SMS's have absolutely no guarantee of getting through. It's a best effort. Think UDP rather than TCP.

Anyway, it's a slightly moot point as rumour has it that eircom are ditching landline SMS. Actually, they should have done so 6 months ago.

BrianD

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You could have had the alarm installed 5 years ago and were with o2, then you decided to change mobile networks and only then do you know it won't work with 3. The installer would have no idea your going to switch mobile networks in the future. Some installers warn people they can't move to 3 ever or that if there with 3 it won't work.

Well I would have thought that it would be essential that the alarm manufacturer point this out to all customers as the GSM module is either an integral part of the system or an official add on. There should be a list of compatible suppliers and a warning that you need to check compatibility of service if you change.

Not every landline operator supports SMS on their landline handsets so it's a limited market and if the alarm co is selling this feature they need to flag possible limitations and that you need to check what your telecoms supplier supports now and in the future.

Perhaps this is not a telecoms issue but an alarm product issue - or a an alarm system that should be sold better?

jeckle

BrianD wrote: »

Perhaps this is not a telecoms issue but an alarm product issue - or a an alarm system that should be sold better?

The Competition Authority has advised that ComReg is the appropriate state agency to deal with the issue. If ComReg felt that it was not a telecoms issue, or was out of their remit, I can only assume that they would not have entertained the complaint to begin with, & made a suggestion as to who might be the relevant authority/regulating body to deal with the issue.

drunkmonkey

BrianD wrote: »

Not every landline operator supports SMS on their landline handsets

This problem is about receiving texts to a 3 mobile phone not a landline handset.

BrianD

jeckle wrote: »

The Competition Authority has advised that ComReg is the appropriate state agency to deal with the issue. If ComReg felt that it was not a telecoms issue, or was out of their remit, I can only assume that they would not have entertained the complaint to begin with, & made a suggestion as to who might be the relevant authority/regulating body to deal with the issue.

However, this would not have been an issue if you had have been forewarned by the systems manufacturer. Certainly we all presume universal coverage nowadays but can we assume that? I don't know what the obligations are for carriers to offer 100% access to others. It would be mad not to but may not actually be a regulation.

drunkmonkey wrote:

This problem is about receiving texts to a 3 mobile phone not a landline handset.

I know that. What I said was not ever operator supports SMS on their landline handsets. Perhaps from their handsets would be clearer.

jeckle

RangeR wrote:

What most of you fail to realise is simple Business Economics. Chances are, Three made a business decision NOT to interoperate with eircom landline SMS as the ratio of expenditure:revenue is just too damn high.

SMS is dying. It's no longer the cash cow it used to be. It may not totally die, but it's a shadow of it's former self. There is fook all money in this platform. Asking a company to implement hardware for this interop is like asking them to burn 10's of thousands in wasted hardware.

This is just not going to happen. Too few people want it. There would be near 0 income for it.

What hardware would Three have to invest tens of thousands in? They already have a message centre to receive SMS messages & re-route them to their customers, so I'd be interested in hearing more about what hardware or even software they would have to invest in. Did 02 & Vodafone burn tens of thousands in similar hardware?

Maybe I'm being ultra naive/ignorant here, but I would have thought that an SMS is an SMS, no matter where it originates from, & once it arrives at the Three message centre number that it would be re-routed just as an SMS from any other mobile network? The Eircom Rep has already said that all Three need to do is send a request into Eircom to update / upgrade their platform to allow Three to receive fixed line SMS. Presumably Eircom & Three also need to crunch a few numbers & this might be where there would be a lot more than zero income in it for Three. It would be interesting to see where you got the figure of tens of thousands.

According to ENN.ie , when Eircom introduced the SMS facility back in September 2002, they were the ones who made the multi-million euro investment - not the mobile network operators.


'Landline SMS has been available in other European countries such as Germany and Italy, but this is the first time that it is being offered in Ireland. Users of Eircom's system will be able to send and receive text messages to and from other SMS-enabled phones, as well as to and from mobile phones.'

jeckle

BrianD wrote:

I don't know what the obligations are for carriers to offer 100% access to others. It would be mad not to but may not actually be a regulation.

Hopefully ComReg will be able to at least clarify this much.

jeckle

RangeR wrote: »

People relying on SMS alerts for goods worth a combined €48 million, should re-evaluate their security process.

The figure of €48million works out at an average of €1,868 per household, which mightn't be a lot to some, but to others it is, plus monetary value can't always be put on sentimental items such as jewellery (which, apart from cash is what is mainly what's stolen these days), or on the invasion of privacy of a person's home.

RangeR

jeckle wrote: »

The figure of €48million works out at an average of €1,868 per household, which mightn't be a lot to some, but to others it is, plus monetary value can't always be put on sentimental items such as jewellery (which, apart from cash is what is mainly what's stolen these days), or on the invasion of privacy of a person's home.

I don't care about the monetary value. It's irrelevant. The point you glossed over is... Security should not be reliant on SMS. Pure and simple. They fail a lot of the time. No network, anywhere in the world, will stand by SMS as a notifier of anything.

Anyway, I'll bow out of this now. It's a moot point. eircom landline SMS is to die soon.

jeckle

RangeR wrote:

I don't care about the monetary value. It's irrelevant.

You seem to care enough about it to have commented on it to begin with.

RangeR wrote:

The point you glossed over is... Security should not be reliant on SMS. Pure and simple. They fail a lot of the time. No network, anywhere in the world, will stand by SMS as a notifier of anything.

I didn't gloss over it as I have already given my views on that particular point to another poster. Besides, in the context of what the thread is about, the reliance on SMS for alarm activation notification is irrelevant. What is relevant is that currently Three customers can't receive SMS messages from an Eircom landline, whereas currently 02, Meteor & Vodafone customers can. Apologies if I didn't make that clear enough for you.

Speaking of glossing thigs over, you have glossed over the question of hardwear costing tens of thousands & whether 02 & Vodafone burnt these sums.

RangeR wrote:

It's a moot point. eircom landline SMS is to die soon.

That may well be the case & would not surprise me, but seeing as you're obviously privy to more information in this regard, which I assume is commercially sensitive, far be it from me to ask you to back this up with any sort of solid proof, but, as with most other internet chinese whispers, until Eircom officially announce this I have no choice but to take it with a grain of salt.