Season 2 Episode 4 - *Have NOT Read the Books* (Spoilers)

expectationlost

Zillah wrote: »

Anyway, regarding the ending, I was really really hoping they'd be more subtle about it than that. I've read the books so maybe I didn't have enough "what the hell!" going on for the scene to work, but I though it looked a little silly. This blatant magic is gonna turn off a lot of the fans they earned in season 1.

the unblatent magic of season 1 was worse

Blowfish

HankScorpio1985 wrote: »

Stannis is the king in the narrow sea and based on Dragonstone...
Renly is king in the highgarden and his army is probably based not too far from there in the west. They met in last nights episode, probably somewhere half way. Would this not be be very close to Kings Landing and Lannister territory or am I getting the positions mixed up? Or is Renly at Storms End?

Renly actually rules Storm's End. His link/alliance to Highgarden is through his wife and her brother who are the daughter/son of the ruler of Highgarden.

MugMugs

pauldoo wrote: »

i think the line of the season was just after that, when the imp and knight were talking of how to deal with Geofrey, and the night says "theres no cure for being a ****"

Couldn't stop laughing at that.

Along with "He was born of salt and smoke" "Is he a ham?"

Two epic quotes.

krudler

I dont get what peoples problems with the magic aspect is, its a fantasy series, its got dragons, giant wolves, zombies, white walkers,a wall that spans the width of a country,people who can't be killed by fire and witches. Its been there since episode one and talked about constantly, the politics and aspects about the throne are what makes the series so good to watch but its a fantasy series first and foremost.

Son0vagun

Oranage2 wrote: »

Can anyone explain what the brotherhood is without giving too much away?

I wouldn't advise googling them as it would certainly spoil some plots. I see the Brotherhood as a gang of merry outlaws!

Degag

pauldoo wrote: »

i think the line of the season was just after that, when the imp and knight were talking of how to deal with Geofrey, and the night says "theres no cure for being a ****"

There was a great line in season one too, when Tyrion first met Bronn and asked him his name. Escapes me now!

PhiloCypher

Was it just me or did littlefinger put on some sort of yorkshire accent when he was talking to Maergery Tyrell , he definitely sounded different to me.

Another bit that never fails to take me out of it is Catelyns ongoing mangling of her own daughters name , It's Arya not Ayyah for the seven gods sake woman, get it right .

mikemac1

I wonder will we see more of the nurse

No idea, never read the book
It was a fairly big role for the actress, I'd be suprised if she is not back again

Robb seems the honourable type and not one to be messing around with women but hey, Ned was honourable too and had a bastard

Son0vagun

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Was it just me or did littlefinger put on some sort of yorkshire accent when he was talking to Maergery Tyrell , he definitely sounded different to me.

Another bit that never fails to take me out of it is Catelyns ongoing mangling over her own daughters name , It's Arya not Ayyah for the seven gods sake woman, get it right .

I asked Bryan Cogan about this on twitter. He said it was a accent thing, cos Catelyn comes from the south she pronounces Ayra differently. But I think this is a bit of a cop out! But in saying that Catelyn has been pronouncing it Ayyah from episode one!

Zillah

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Was it just me or did littlefinger put on some sort of yorkshire accent when he was talking to Maergery Tyrell , he definitely sounded different to me.

Littlefinger's accent has been wandering around the British Isles this whole season, it's bizarre. He seemed to be doing a Sean Connery impression for a while.

don ramo

krudler wrote: »

I dont get what peoples problems with the magic aspect is, its a fantasy series, its got dragons, giant wolves, zombies, white walkers,a wall that spans the width of a country,people who can't be killed by fire and witches. Its been there since episode one and talked about constantly, the politics and aspects about the throne are what makes the series so good to watch but its a fantasy series first and foremost.

yeah, i love the fantasy aspects of the show, its really what makes it, but i remember when lost first came on the scene there was a few sci-fi aspects that people didn't really mind, right up until they turned the magic donkey wheel and moved the island, it was like people liked lost but didn't like sci-fi and they could ignore a lot of it right up until that point where they couldn't,

but i dont honestly see anything negative happening from this,

tvnutz

It's even better because for the people in the show magic is dead,dragons are dead, the white walkers are only a myth. For them all these things are long gone and that makes it very interesting because we know they are about to be hit with all these different things, and they don't. They are only concerned with who sits on the Iron Throne.

But remember what Joer Mormont said "Do you think your brother's war is more important than ours? When dead men and worse come hunting for us in the night, you think it matters who sits on the Iron Throne?"

The fantasy aspects are exciting and my jaw was hanging low at the entire last few minutes of this episode. Great stuff.

pixelburp

Whilst I wouldn't call it snobbery, there's definitely an odd attitude from people sometimes when it comes to sci-fi / fantasy shows on TV; they act as if it's a dirty word to use in describing its genre. I know people who wouldn't be caught dead watching something ostensibly sci-fi like Fringe or Dr. Who, yet loved Lost & watch Game of Thrones without problem. I suspect it's because that for them, while the science fictional / fantasy elements merely float in the background as scene dressing, they can dismiss them or pretend they don't exist.

qz

What in the actual fook. One of the best episode of the show I've seen. From punching the air at the beginning when the dire wolf attacked the soldier to being gobsmacked at the end when that thing was born.

Unreal.

krudler

Zillah wrote: »

Littlefinger's accent has been wandering around the British Isles this whole season, it's bizarre. He seemed to be doing a Sean Connery impression for a while.

thats bugging me too, my housemate is watching season 1 for the first time and I keep catching bits in the sitting room when he's watching it, and Littlefinger sounds completely different in season 2

sink

I literally said out loud,"what the ****"! Seriously loving this show.

Sudden Valley

I love the series but I found it really noticeable in the last few episodes the lack of extras especially in this episode in the scene in front of the city Quarth- the city guard consisted of about 10 guards and daenerys people consisted of about 20 people. considering they could CGI the inside of the city quite well I'm not why they don't attempt it with extras?

Temptamperu

Sudden Valley wrote: »

I love the series but I found it really noticeable in the last few episodes the lack of extras especially in this episode in the scene in front of the city Quarth- the city guard consisted of about 10 guards and daenerys people consisted of about 20 people. considering they could CGI the inside of the city quite well I'm not why they don't attempt it with extras?

I watched a behind the scenes video on youtube, that scene just started as the thirteen and the "khalisar" but they beefed it up with the guards as it felt hollow.

mapaco

fantastic stuff-just watched now...the only problem is that you have to wait a week for the next one
think i'm gonna have to find spoilers for the black smoky thing-cant be waitin that long!!:P

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

Whilst I wouldn't call it snobbery, there's definitely an odd attitude from people sometimes when it comes to sci-fi / fantasy shows on TV; they act as if it's a dirty word to use in describing its genre. I know people who wouldn't be caught dead watching something ostensibly sci-fi like Fringe or Dr. Who, yet loved Lost & watch Game of Thrones without problem. I suspect it's because that for them, while the science fictional / fantasy elements merely float in the background as scene dressing, they can dismiss them or pretend they don't exist.

Slightly off topic, but I remember reading an interview with the creators of Lost and saying that the first season they kept it at a drama as much as possible, without bringing in any of the Sci-Fi stuff yet, because they had a feeling that people just wouldn't watch that show. Once they had people grabbed in, they knew they were able to do all that stuff.

Cookiemunster

Sudden Valley wrote: »

I love the series but I found it really noticeable in the last few episodes the lack of extras especially in this episode in the scene in front of the city Quarth- the city guard consisted of about 10 guards and daenerys people consisted of about 20 people. considering they could CGI the inside of the city quite well I'm not why they don't attempt it with extras?

Remember though that the vast majority of the Khalasar shagged off when Drogo died leaving only a handful of people behind. Daenerys isn't supposed to have the vast army that Drogo had.

Zillah

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Remember though that the vast majority of the Khalasar shagged off when Drogo died leaving only a handful of people behind. Daenerys isn't supposed to have the vast army that Drogo had.

Even still, she literally had about 30 people behind her, I could have sworn it was supposed to be more like 100. There should also have been three times as many guards. The whole scene just looked a little cheap.

Zillah

pixelburp wrote: »

Whereas dragons were ok? I don't think the average viewer is that fickle that the presence of some magic is going to be a deal-breaker. If anything, the show has been slowly introducing it into the fabric of the story withouting appearing too jarring. Like I said, the first series ended with the birth of dragons after some black-magic rituals, had zombies during & even started the series with a little implied magic. The viewer has been warned.

Dragons are fine because they're basically fancy animals. Zombies are fine because all you see is a creepy guy lurching around. Even the white walkers are little more than shadows in the trees and a pair of eyes in the dark. Full blown blatant CGI is something else altogether.

Having magic in the series is fine, but, like with a lot of things in cinema/tv, a bit of subtlety helps the delivery.

ArmaniJeanss

Dragons are fine because all we are asked to believe is that a species of animal existed in this world, was then thought to be extinct and is now back.
Its plausible enough, new species get discovered and extinct species get 'rediscovered' regularly enough in 'our own world' for it to be believable.

Melisandre's Magic Minge is a much harder thing to accept - this chapter in the book was one of the few times I questioned whether I wanted to continue.

pixelburp

Zillah wrote: »

Dragons are fine because they're basically fancy animals. Zombies are fine because all you see is a creepy guy lurching around. Even the white walkers are little more than shadows in the trees and a pair of eyes in the dark. Full blown blatant CGI is something else altogether.

Having magic in the series is fine, but, like with a lot of things in cinema/tv, a bit of subtlety helps the delivery.

Fancy animals that can fly & breath fire. I mean come on.

And and the zombies are clearly just that, considering one had an arm lopped off, a sword shoved through it & yet it still kept coming. Hardly some creepy guy just lurching around.

Better to just accept these things as part of the GoT world and run with it, accepting the internal mythology, than to get annoyed that they are somehow implausible. The whole world of Westeros itself is implausible afterall.

Zillah

This has absolutely nothing to do with plausibility. It is about presentation. "Blatant" is rarely a good story-telling strategy.

touts

I have to say my reaction watching the final scene was "Aw here!"

I suspect the audience figures will be go off a cliff after that. Sure the 50% die hard fantasy fans who grew up on Buffy and stuff will think the show finally is starting to reach it's potential. The other 50% will think do I really want to be seen to be watching that. They might watch it in secret but they won't be telling their friends about it.

I read the start of the first book and I was surprised at the ages of the main characters. Robb 15? Daenerys 13??? Ned Stark an elderly 35??? Ned, Robert etc were all teenagers when they led a rebellion and overthrew the Mad King????? That worried me that this was aimed at the teenage boy market. This episode's full frontal nutity during birth of some sort of a shadow had teenage boy market written all over it.

I wouldn't be surprised to see "birthed the shadow" used interchangeably with "jumped the shark" in the future. Hope I'm wrong but they have taken a huge huge risk.

Syferus

Jesus, talk about over-reaction.

tvnutz

touts wrote: »

This episode's full frontal nutity during birth of some sort of a shadow had teenage boy market written all over it.

You think teenage boys want to see some pregnant woman naked? Dany naked with the dragons at the end of season 1-hell yes,this-no no no!

CastorTroy

Degag wrote: »

There was a great line in season one too, when Tyrion first met Bronn and asked him his name. Escapes me now!

Was it when he met Tywin, I think? He and a few others. The others introduced them as name "son of" name. Then came to Bronn and he just said "Bronn" tow which Tywin asked "Son of...?" "You wouldn't know him" Thought that was excellent.

I think with this episode the writers were worried people were beginning to warm to Joffrey so had to do something to make us dislike him.

tvnutz wrote: »

Dany naked with the dragons at the end of season 1-hell yes,this-no no no!

Um, wasn't just teenage boys who liked this scene.

tvnutz

CastorTroy wrote: »

Um, wasn't just teenage boys who liked this scene.

Oh I agree!

Dozen Wicked Words

I just think a mystical angle grinder would have been a better way to shift the bars, and that scene was naff imho. Doesn't detract from the series as a whole though, and Im enjoying it more than the first series up to now.

nyarlothothep

I don't get all the hate for the birth scene nor do I understand the aversion displayed towards magic and the embarrasment factor being attributed to sci fi and fantasy. I don't think magic cheapens the series, saying otherwise just seems like snobbery that you could associate with "high culture" critics in fields like writing or film where they would display a similar distaste for sci fi/fantasy. GoT isn't defined by "keeping the magic use low" or "subtelty. If people would just reflect for a minute, it's the characters, plot and themes which define it, that's usually what makes any show. Nor do I care much for the subtelty argument. The overuse of subtlety can get too grating for its own good. Sometimes you need moments of high explicit drama, to go into overdrive and really make a big impact, otherwise you're just left with a boring, tedious British spy "thriller". I personally didn't think "oh the birth scene with magic is unsubtle" nor do I think it should limit the show's appeal to cult audiences. If it does the lay viewing public have less imagination than I thought. Because there is nothing geeky about sci fi or fantasy, it's just characterised as that in a positive sense by geeks for geek pride or in a negative sense by non-imaginative folk who can't see beyond the mundanity of the real world.

Oh yeah and Joffrey is a text book psychopath. Initially I thought the maniac king gone mad with power narrative was somewhat amusing eg oh you're drunk are you? Well then have all the wine you want ahahaha (ironic punishment) but now he's just plain creepy/disturbing.

pixelburp

Zillah wrote: »

This has absolutely nothing to do with plausibility. It is about presentation. "Blatant" is rarely a good story-telling strategy.

Sorry but I don't see how it's blatant as such; clearly the direction of the series is forcing fantasy in all its manifestations back into Westeros. Seems no less blatant than the appearance of zombies & dragons, despite peoples' best efforts to 'normalize' their appearance. CGI dragons are ok, but CGI spooks are bad? Bit confused by your logic is all

So sooner or later yes of course, there's going to be a fairly overt example happening in the show. It can't all be shadowy suggestions, or winks & nods. The shadow-birth was a bit bizarre & lacked elegance, but it seemed to me like the mythology was building in this direction already.

As for the nakedness, I was listening to the radio on the way home this evening, where someone texting into the show described that last scene as 'pornographic'. Prudery boggles the mind sometimes. :rolleyes:

touts wrote: »

... This episode's full frontal nutity during birth of some sort of a shadow had teenage boy market written all over it.

Like I said, boggles the mind.

Son0vagun

Syferus wrote: »

Jesus, talk about over-reaction.

You're right, Total over reaction. Just wait till The aliens arrive, what will they say then!

Pepe LeFrits

touts wrote: »

I read the start of the first book and I was surprised at the ages of the main characters. Robb 15? Daenerys 13??? Ned Stark an elderly 35??? Ned, Robert etc were all teenagers when they led a rebellion and overthrew the Mad King????? That worried me that this was aimed at the teenage boy market. This episode's full frontal nutity during birth of some sort of a shadow had teenage boy market written all over it.

Yeah, I'd imagine because they grew up in a medieval-type society with faster maturity and shorter life spans, and not one where maturity means owning an iPod.

krudler

Just be glad they didnt show the dragons drinking milk from Dany's breasts like is mentioned in the book, and she's bald in that as the fire at the end of season 1 burns off all her hair.

Sleepy

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Yeah, I'd imagine because they grew up in a medieval-type society with faster maturity and shorter life spans, and not one where maturity means owning an iPod.

Not to mention that no-one has ever said a year in Westeros is the same as an Earth year. Their seasons last for years, who's to say their "name days" aren't further apart than our birthdays?

krudler

Sleepy wrote: »

Not to mention that no-one has ever said a year in Westeros is the same as an Earth year. Their seasons last for years, who's to say their "name days" aren't further apart than our birthdays?

zactly, a year in Westeros time could be the equivalent of two or three in ours

Owryan

Likewise who is to say their name day is even their birthday.

Also the human element in GoT would appear to be set in what to us would be medieval times. Back then life expectancy waa a lot less than now so for young asults to be married off/come to power was not unusual

ArmaniJeanss

Sleepy wrote: »

Not to mention that no-one has ever said a year in Westeros is the same as an Earth year. Their seasons last for years, who's to say their "name days" aren't further apart than our birthdays?

I think its relatively clear that they are identical.
It's never explicitly stated obviously but characters like Sansa (In Series One she has had 12 name days and has not yet 'had her blood', but a marriage to Joffrey is imminent once she has had it) would indicate Westeros and Earth aging is the same.

Sleepy

Honestly, I'm inclined to agree with Owryan in that realistically the humans in ASOIAF are based quite historically accurately on medieval Britain (since the whole game of thrones element is based on the War of Roses and many of the events have mirrors in British and Scottish history...

(e.g. the wall, the red wedding, Frey Pie etc.)

Just threw out the possibility that there's nothing in the canon that explicitly says a name day is a birthday and a year is the exact same length as an Earth year. Even if it was only slightly longer e.g. a 426 day year which would make the Sansa with 12 name days 14 years old, it would bring the characters ages up to something less creepy for our modern social values.

sickpuppy32

qz wrote: »

What in the actual fook. One of the best episode of the show I've seen. From punching the air at the beginning when the dire wolf attacked the soldier to being gobsmacked at the end when that thing was born.

Unreal.

poor old rennick, kinda liked him, especially the fart joke, really got the horror of war aspect - even the funny guy dies

CastorTroy

So was that soldier who farted the same guy who came out drunk to fight at Joffrey's name day? I also thought it was Jon snow's friend.

sickpuppy32

No , that was some knight who they made the castle clown

I just jumped into this thread for a quick look and I have to say; all the contempt for the mystical elements in the show made me laugh. This is a FANTASY show, people. If you're embarrassed by dragons, zombies or shadow demons you might as well stop watching now, because there's going to be a lot more in the upcoming seasons.
And for whoever said it: the shadow ISN'T meant for breaking those bars down. Davos meant to bring Melisandre further into the caves, only to find the way barred off. So she had to stop and give birth there instead.

calex71

Deleted User wrote: »

I just jumped into this thread for a quick look and I have to say; all the contempt for the mystical elements in the show made me laugh. This is a FANTASY show, people. If you're embarrassed by dragons, zombies or shadow demons you might as well stop watching now, because there's going to be a lot more in the upcoming seasons.
And for whoever said it: the shadow ISN'T meant for breaking those bars down. Davos meant to bring Melisandre further into the caves, only to find the way barred off. So she had to stop and give birth there instead.

You're right but wrong at the same time, even the books where like this to a point where when the fantasy happened 1st hand it was a call to sit up and take note, i'd had a few paragraphs more but even using spoiler tags would not be fair in the thread that clearly says HAVE NOT read the books, also bearing in mind that this is a thread for exactly that and the discussion of the TV show.

Rabidlamb

I watched episode 3 & 4 back to back last night, great viewing.
Those whinging about the supernatural elements can **** right off.
This is the telling of a book which has been successful in it's own right.
The readers didn't turn their back on the series of books when they read it & neither should any right minded watcher today.
This is not Damien Lindoff backed into a corner creating a magic donkey wheel to mix water & light.
If you don't like it then bugger off quietly, would you prefer the screenplay didn't follow the text.

On the show itself, the weakness of Daenerys is a bit daft, ooooh I wonder where she's hiding the dragons, they could have slaughtered them & taken the dragons in seconds if they wanted to, have to see how it plays out.
Are we to take it that Liam Cunningham's character had some fingers cut off by Stannis for being a smuggler, yet he remains loyal but maybe ripe for turning, I like that.
Aidan Gillan makes a move on Ned Stark's widow just before he gives her his husbands head in the box, smooth.
Who authorised the trade of the 2 daughters for the Lannister chap ?, I missed him getting an instruction.

Seeing Anne Boleyn in the buff would cure anyone of the gay Iris Robinson style.

Rabidlamb

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Are we to take it that Liam Cunningham's character had some fingers cut off by Stannis for being a smuggler, yet he remains loyal but maybe ripe for turning, I like that.
.

Its fleshed out more int he books, not sure if its mentioned in teh series

Davos was a smuggler, that saved Stannis and his armies lives by smuggling in onions and other food to them whilst they were being starved by some army. Stannis was so greatful that he made Davos a knight, but as we all know Stannis has an extreme case of all wrongdoing is bad. So as punishment he chopped off the fingers.

Sleepy

Littlefinger wrote: »

Its fleshed out more int he books, not sure if its mentioned in teh series

Davos was a smuggler, that saved Stannis and his armies lives by smuggling in onions and other food to them whilst they were being starved by some army. Stannis was so greatful that he made Davos a knight, but as we all know Stannis has an extreme case of all wrongdoing is bad. So as punishment he chopped off the fingers.

the armies were Targaryen loyalists during Roberts Rebellion, Stannis and his troops wer under siege in Dragonstone during a large part of that war. Davos was punished for his smuggling and then raised to knighthood to reward his bravery in breaking the siege lines