Toiler's Constant

Kurt Godel

Mon 2,500m swim

400m warm up
5x100m off 1:45 (in between 1:31-1:35)
5x100m off 1:50 (in 1:35-1:40)
5x100m off 1:55 (in 1:38-1:45)
5x100m off 2:00 (in 1:45-1:48)
100m w/d
Minute recovery between sets.

Arms and shoulders still a bit sore after Saturday's swim, so the first set seemed a bit tough. Happy enough with form, although I gotta learn to tumble, my wall turns are atrocious.

Kurt Godel

Tue 52km bike, 27.1kph

It's a swirly wind to be going out in today, felt as though the wind was against us the whole way round (ironically this means there is no wind). Pace was kept easy, except when PN blasted up the first hill, and when I put the foot down for a hard flat 8k Carnew-Shillelagh. Otherwise, chatting pace, listening to PN moan about the Public Sector etc. He'd out moan Joe Duffy, someone please give him the Whineline number.

Kurt Godel

Wed 10k easy run

Early autumnal evening in our outback arboreum. Easy effort (almost eleven executed), and absolutely aught...kn... emmm... antipodal elbow ailment evident.

Dory Dory

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Wed 10k easy run

Early autumnal evening in our outback arboreum. Easy effort (almost eleven executed), and absolutely aught...kn... emmm... antipodal elbow ailment evident.

Amazing articulation of athletic endeavoring in aesthetically easy on eyes (and ears) effect.

Kurt Godel

Thurs 3.4k OW swim

Met up with Abhainn at Wicklow Harbour, great evening, the water a decent temperature, bang, off we go. A bit of a route mix-up on my part meant we quickly disbanded on separate directions, but its not like you can have a chat while swimming anyways. I've been reading up about hand placement during the stroke phase- basically I think I've a lot to learn and refine, in order to get the most out of the motor. So, a couple of things i was concentrating on tonight:
1. Hand entry. I've been entering as if I'm about to scoop up a load of sand. This causes a splash, so I tried to minimise the splash by entering thumb first, the rest of the hand perpendicular to the plane of the water, as a blade.
2. Hand exit. Your hand is useless once out of the water, so why not make the most of it when its submerged? A tip I read was to lightly stroke your thumb against your thigh as you exit- and this certainly has the effect of creating a longer stroke.

Both these exercises were held throughout the session, and were useful when I started to tire. It's hard to gauge speed and performance when in OW, but I believe I was quicker tonight (circa 3.4k in 56mins, extrapolating from Abhainns watch at the end, but it didn't feel anywhere near this fast). The swim race I did at the weekend has given me a total new outlook on what distance speed is, and I think thats starting to feed down in terms of training pace.

(By the way, Abhainn is looking fitter than ever, in perfect shape for CB).

Dory Dory

Your hand entry with thumb first and rest of hand perpendicular to the water seems a bit extreme to me. My fingertips enter first.....then a bit of a shoulder roll.....then "S" action underwater....then thumb to thigh upon exit. However, i am a firm believer that there is more than one correct/efficient way to do most things, so whatever works for you is great. Maybe Abhainn could video you so we could have a look at your technique.

(Pssst.....i finally "got" it and posted respnse on my thread....)

Kurt Godel

Dory Dory wrote: »

Your hand entry with thumb first and rest of hand perpendicular to the water seems a bit extreme to me. My fingertips enter first.....then a bit of a shoulder roll.....then "S" action underwater....then thumb to thigh upon exit. However, i am a firm believer that there is more than one correct/efficient way to do most things, so whatever works for you is great. Maybe Abhainn could video you so we could have a look at your technique.

Yeah, its a very "forced" entry motion to make. I'll probably just work on the thumb-to-thigh, which left an immediate sense of its worth.

Dory Dory wrote: »

(Pssst.....i finally "got" it and posted respnse on my thread....)

Kurt loves making nonsense obscure!;)

Abhainn

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Thurs 3.4k OW swim

2. Hand exit. Your hand is useless once out of the water, so why not make the most of it when its submerged? A tip I read was to lightly stroke your thumb against your thigh as you exit- and this certainly has the effect of creating a longer stroke.

I used to do this in the pool and then stopped it. Thanks for reminding me again

Distance - at least 3.4, more like 3.5 or even more. in 55:40. You were motoring. I felt like a 3+ marathoner (no disrespect) and you were the 2:36 lad

griffin100

Dory Dory wrote: »

Your hand entry with thumb first and rest of hand perpendicular to the water seems a bit extreme to me. My fingertips enter first.....then a bit of a shoulder roll.....then "S" action underwater....then thumb to thigh upon exit. However, i am a firm believer that there is more than one correct/efficient way to do most things, so whatever works for you is great.)

Agree with this. My understanding is that the extreme perpendicular entry can give rise to shoulder problems, it certainly did for me in the early days. If you watch the good ow swimmers its a pretty flat entry with the slight turn of the hand outwardly to catch the water once entry is complete.........but then again what does a crap swimmer like me know

Dory Dory

griffin100 wrote: »

Agree with this. My understanding is that the extreme perpendicular entry can give rise to shoulder problems, it certainly did for me in the early days. If you watch the good ow swimmers its a pretty flat entry with the slight turn of the hand outwardly to catch the water once entry is complete.........but then again what does a crap swimmer like me know

You're dead on with the entry.

Kurt Godel

Abhainn wrote: »

I felt like a 3+ marathoner (no disrespect) and you were the 2:36 lad

To be fair, you're not comparing like with like. I'm doing nowhere near the volume and effort you are. I push the swims a couple of times a week, you're doing that, and them intense runs/bikes the other days.
In any case, its paying dividends, your swimming has come on hugely since we first lapped the harbour. I had you as a target for the last lap last night, and you were swimming with a great stoke action.

Fri 5k easy run

Just a leg loosener up in the forest. 13.1 miles (yes, miles) scheduled tomorrow, 9:09 min/mile pace.

Izoard

Given this is quickly becoming the centre of excellence for swimming - noddy question #1.

In the "pull" phase, fingers should be tight together (like a paddle) or slightly apart?

Kurt Godel

Izoard wrote: »

Given this is quickly becoming the centre of excellence for swimming - noddy question #1.

In the "pull" phase, fingers should be tight together (like a paddle) or slightly apart?

Ha! Noddy answer #1: I was actually experimenting with this last night. Keeping the fingers closed made for a solid paddle, but felt a bit forced. Opening my fingers a slight bit, seemed to help make a bigger paddle, and if you consider the wall of turbulance the small eddies between each slight gap make, it makes sense.

But I'm totally open to correction from anyone!

Oryx

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Ha! Noddy answer #1: I was actually experimenting with this last night. Keeping the fingers closed made for a solid paddle, but felt a bit forced. Opening my fingers a slight bit, seemed to help make a bigger paddle, and if you consider the wall of turbulance the small eddies between each slight gap make, it makes sense.

But I'm totally open to correction from anyone!

Triathlete Europe and the coach in base to race agree with you. Tight fingers, no. Open fingers, no. Relaxed with maybe tiny gaps, just right.

Dory Dory

Oryx wrote: »

Triathlete Europe and the coach in base to race agree with you. Tight fingers, no. Open fingers, no. Relaxed with maybe tiny gaps, just right.

Agreed.

Kurt Godel

Here's an article from Slowtwitch on what to do with your hands when swimming. Indeed, it defines why the slight turbulence of slightly apart, works (and suggests a simple experiment that you can try yourself).

article wrote:

It seems like a simple question. Yet, I am surprised by how many people don’t quite know what to do with their hands either underwater on the pull or above water on the recovery. For both parts of the stroke cycle, it is important that you know.

Doc Counsilman, one of the greatest swim coaches of all time at Indiana University, used to say that the difference between a great swimmer and a not-so-great swimmer was the sensitivity one had in the fingers. Great swimmers could feel the water and pressure better than the others, he reasoned. He was right. The sensitivity in the fingers is one of the key elements of becoming an efficient swimmer. It is what enables a swimmer to maximize the power one can generate in the underwater arm pull.

Too many swimmers try too hard with their hands. Or perhaps they were taught wrong. I see many swimmers cup their hands like they are holding a scoop of ice cream during the pull, keeping the fingers and thumb tightly pressed together. The most effective way to pull through the water is with the fingers and thumb separated slightly. What we are trying to do is maximize the effective surface area of our hand.

By separating the fingers slightly, the flow of water that passes through this area between the fingers is turbulent and slow. In other words, the hand acts as if it were as large as the entire area of the hand and the small spaces between the fingers. Spread the fingers too much and the flow becomes laminar and fast and the hand then acts like it has holes in it. Cup the hands with the fingers together and you will reduce the effective surface area of your hand to the actual surface area of your hand and fingers.

Want proof? Just try sculling in deep water hard, moving your hands back and forth briskly, trying to lift yourself high in the water. First do this drill with your hands cupped, fingers together. Then try it with the fingers spread slightly apart. Then, finally, try the same drill with the fingers spread far apart. You will feel rather significant differences in the forces you can generate doing this sculling motion with the three different hand positions. The winner is with the fingers spread slightly.

Eddie Reese, famous coach from the University of Texas, likens the underwater pull to pulling with a bear’s paw. When he sees a swimmer pulling underwater with the bear paw, he knows he’s looking at a talented swimmer. I also like to think of bending the distal part of the ring and pinkie fingers slightly during the underwater pull, as if I am pushing the ends of those two fingers into a soft stick of butter. Whether it is a bear paw or butter, do what makes you feel the water better.

What about the recovery? My former Master’s coach in Phoenix, Olympic gold medalist Troy Dalbey, used to always tell me to recover with soft hands. What he meant by that was to fully relax the hands on the recovery. Whether one swims with a straight-arm or bent-arm recovery, either way, the hands and wrist should be completely loose and relaxed. One of my favorite drills for this is to stop the arm midway in the freestyle recovery, when it is sticking more or less straight up, then shake the wrist several times until it is completely loose, then complete the recovery arm stroke. The arm should then be fully extended or very close to it, before the hand enters the water for the next pull.

Forget about the old way of sliding the hand into the water in front of the head and then extending it forward. Keep your arm in air as long as you can. The drag coefficient in air is miniscule compared to water, with a density some 800 times greater than air.

The other old-school habit that bothers me is what I call the modern-toilet-seat-syndrome. Most of us have seen these new toilet seats that have a spring that slows them down and keeps them from slamming against the toilet when dropped. Many swimmers I teach enter their hands into the water just like these new toilet seats. They slow down the arm just before the hand enters the water, hoping to avoid all of those terrible air bubbles they’ve heard about. The problem is that by slowing their arm recovery and the hand entry, their stroke rate slows and they seem to get just as many air bubbles as when they let their arms rip and throw their hands forward aggressively. The ability to get rid of those nasty air bubbles has more to do with what one does with the hand after it gets into the water and the sensitivity in the finger tips than it does with the speed of the hand as it enters the water.

So forget about being delicate. Let your arms rip through the recovery with relaxed wrist and hands. Enter the water with full extension…or close to it. Then get ready for another good underwater pull with a high elbow, feeling the water as well as you can.

Want to see some of the great swimmers’ hands underwater? Check out our videos on our website at www.theraceclub.com.

Yours in swimming,

Gary Sr.

Kurt Godel

Sat 21.1k 2:00:02;)

I was pacing the race series HM in the Park today, so not really a proper run, although it did me the chance to try the new shoes on a longish concrete/tarmac run. Happy to say they passed with flying colours.

Pacing at this band is a bit of an ego-stroke, as you get so many runners saying you're incredible for not breaking a sweat. So I am.
Also, two cute girls in tight lycra told me their mission to stay ahead of me and not let me pass. Spend two hours running right behind the two of you? Whatever you say girls.

PS Met loads of Boardies here, including JackyBack on his bike. What a piece of equipment.

Oryx

Letch.

Kurt Godel

Oryx wrote: »

Letch.

I'll assume you mean JB's bike.

Dory Dory

Kurt Godel wrote: »

PS Met loads of Boardies here, including JackyBack on his bike. What a piece of equipment.

JB or his bike?

Kurt Godel

^Good for a laugh, if nothing else, these logs:D

Sun 8k easy run

In the forest, soft underfoot, after the deluge. No real problems in my legs after pounding 21km of hard pavement yesterday, which I'm very happy about.

Someone asked me yesterday what my goals are, and I realized I don't have anything in the immediate future. Long-term, I'd like to be in good shape for Valentia Sprint next year- by which I mean exiting the water in spitting range of the good swimmers, having a solid bike, and having my running back to a level that would see me holding/taking places. After that, take in a few Oly distance tri's. I think a strong swimmer has more advantage at this distance than others. Maybe try some long-distance swim races too. A lot of next year will be predicated on upping the level of training over the winter months- and so far as I stay injury free and am enjoying it, so good.

For the immediate future, there's nothing specific. Tri and swim seasons are over (not interested in that GF swim, and the 5k in Lough Derg would appeal, but its way too expensive). So that leaves Dublin Marathon- I'm in no shape to race it, but may run it at a slower pace, and just soak up the atmosphere. I'll be there anyway helping organize the pacers, so this seems like a valid option. A 30k run beforehand will be needed, so maybe a LSR or two over the next few weeks.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Dory Dory wrote: »

JB or his bike?

now now:) Good stuff at the weekend you looked comfortable trotting around the park.

Kurt Godel

Tue 30mins turbo

Nothing yesterday, first rest day in ages. There's a bit of a cold going round the family that I have a touch of, so I didn't need to be told to take a day off.

My turbo trainer arrived, so I stuck on a cheesy motivational video of some Jersey guys'n'gals turboing in a mercedes car dealership (???), for a half hour session. Wow. I can see how useful a turbo will be for structured efforts. Today was:
10 min WU
3 min hard
3 mins easy
5x(1 min hard, 1 min easy)
4 min WD

Sweating buckets after, and hurting from the effort.

Dory Dory

Try clipping out one foot and pedaling with the other - your ego will be totally crushed, or at least mine was when I realized how many weak spots I had in my revolution. Congrats on the trainer - I think you will find real value in it to enhance what you are already doing, especially this winter.

Krusty_Clown

Sorry to hear about the trainer. Hope you find something to provide some balance and keep your sanity intact.

Kurt Godel

Tue PM9.6k tempo run

Fear not, Mr. Clown, there's always the forest trail, on a cool evening, the night drawing in along the run, a bunch of lads to run with, a noticeable spring in my step, zero pain in the knee, a hard run out, and a harder run back. Perfect Kharma

shotgunmcos

weigh yourself before and after your turbo sets to get an idea of how much sweat you lose hourly. Winter turbo sets are hard enough without neglecting adequate rehydration.

I only copped to use an electrolyte drink on the turbo on my 3rd turbo winter :rolleyes:

Kurt Godel

Wed 3,000m swim

I felt very tired for this, my whole body was struggling for energy from the warm up. Reckon this can be put down to last night's tempo run. The pace for the sessions today were a bit slower than last week. Today I came in 5-8 secs ahead of time, last week I was coming in faster. Also today I was trying to concentrate on better understroke follow through.

500m WU
5x100m off 1:45
1 min break
5x100m off 1:50
1 min break
5x100m off 1:55
1 min break
5x100m off 2:00
1 min break
500m WD

Kurt Godel

Wed pm 7k easy run

Sweating through this, with a runny nose, bit of a chill... feels like I'm succumbing to that cold thats been doing the rounds. In a way I'm relieved, because it explains why my swim times were down on last week, even though the effort seemed the same.

shotgunmcos

Hey do those 5*100 sets in reverse order of RTs to make it a more challenging set. I hear ya on the bloody sniffles :mad: