Gamsat 2013

pc11

Stephan Grundy wrote: »

It's until Wednesday to sort it - and the appeals have to arrive in the post.

So, I gather that everything is done in time for the Round 0 offers - it would have to be. I've just mailed my documents after a drive to Limerick - and this time, cunningly got my tax accountant to ring the Admissions Director at RCSI to personally confirm with her that what they prepared would be sufficient. Which means that in the event that anything else goes funny with this, I have a witness who can say that the documents were confirmed as acceptable by the Admissions Director.

Still going to be sweating bullets until I have my acceptance letter in hand, though, given the appalling history thus far.

I mean: would it have killed them to tell me that I needed my tax documents to prove I'd been paying taxes for at least three out of the last five years back in November? Or in April, when I called about the EU status thing again? My father wasn't kidding about medicine being a high-stress profession, I'm highly stressed already and haven't even gotten an acceptance letter yet!

That's a pain. I just googled the EU status thingy and it's pretty clear that you have to show residence in Ireland for 3 of the last 5 years, so they should have been clear when you asked.

I was worried about that myself even though I'm Irish, was born here and I've lived essentially all my life here, so I sent in a copy of my passport and a recent payslip with my PPS number on it to make absolutely sure.

Another example: I first talked to BOI last November about the fees loan and had many dealings with them since with at least 3 different staff members in 2 branches. But, I only found out a month ago that the guarantor needs to be a blood relative, no-one ever mentioned that!

It's these 'little' things that catch you and add to the pressure. I'm a bit surprised you have to send it in the post. I mean, if you put a stamp on the envelope and stuck it in the CAO's door, would they really notice or care?

Stephan Grundy

It's just crazy-making - it really is! I'm not a citizen, so wanting proof of Irish taxpayer status is fair enough - no pay, no play, can't argue that. It's the lack of any details in the CAO materials, the actual misinformation from the universities which has strung me out from November onwards (and the CAO just failing to enter what I originally sent them - totally failing - as in, someone must have binned it rather than scanning it onto my file), plus the fact that no one will admit to being a decision maker - the RCSI director of admissions just told me that it's actually the CAO that decides on tax status, but the CAO is adamant that they can't tell anyone anything and that one has to check with the universities.

Unfortunately, it looks as though all of us in appeal limbo won't find *anything* out until we receive our acceptance letters in August - or not. And if not, I will have wasted a year because the CAO and the universities could not be bothered, upon repeated enquiry, to tell me what was actually required. This will not make me happy. No, it will not!

amorris452

Stephan Grundy wrote: »

It's until Wednesday to sort it - and the appeals have to arrive in the post.

So, I gather that everything is done in time for the Round 0 offers - it would have to be. I've just mailed my documents after a drive to Limerick - and this time, cunningly got my tax accountant to ring the Admissions Director at RCSI to personally confirm with her that what they prepared would be sufficient. Which means that in the event that anything else goes funny with this, I have a witness who can say that the documents were confirmed as acceptable by the Admissions Director.

Still going to be sweating bullets until I have my acceptance letter in hand, though, given the appalling history thus far.

I mean: would it have killed them to tell me that I needed my tax documents to prove I'd been paying taxes for at least three out of the last five years back in November? Or in April, when I called about the EU status thing again? My father wasn't kidding about medicine being a high-stress profession, I'm highly stressed already and haven't even gotten an acceptance letter yet!

That's sounds a fierce pain in the arse, I hope it all gets sorted for you! I'm stressed out here myself and my situation doesn't sound half as complex as yours lol. Got my documents away in the post now... again. Let us know when you hear back! Good Luck!!

pc11

Stephan Grundy wrote: »

It's just crazy-making - it really is! I'm not a citizen, so wanting proof of Irish taxpayer status is fair enough - no pay, no play, can't argue that. It's the lack of any details in the CAO materials, the actual misinformation from the universities which has strung me out from November onwards (and the CAO just failing to enter what I originally sent them - totally failing - as in, someone must have binned it rather than scanning it onto my file), plus the fact that no one will admit to being a decision maker - the RCSI director of admissions just told me that it's actually the CAO that decides on tax status, but the CAO is adamant that they can't tell anyone anything and that one has to check with the universities.

Unfortunately, it looks as though all of us in appeal limbo won't find *anything* out until we receive our acceptance letters in August - or not. And if not, I will have wasted a year because the CAO and the universities could not be bothered, upon repeated enquiry, to tell me what was actually required. This will not make me happy. No, it will not!

If you can document all this, it might be worth having a solicitor ready just in case you need to formally protest that you were misled.

CAO only administers this process, so I would have thought that the ultimate decision on status rests with the college. After all, that's why all the college officials get together to review our applications and decide on eligibility.

I'm guessing that you are falling between 2 categories in that you're applying as EU but with a non-EU degree, that may be where some confusion is coming from. That's not to excuse it, of course.

bluemagpie

Just to say medicine applications are only up 1% in total this year with no breakdown between undergraduate and graduate. Even with the first preference changes it would be extremely surprising if 59 did not get you a Dublin college so once your eligibility is confirmed try and relax!

In relation to the loans, if you have a prior career and a guarantor the chances are high that you will be approved for the loan unless you have significant other debts. Generally loan decisions are made by a central team and are not related to the person you are dealing with in the bank, they are only advising you on the best way to give yourself the highest chance of your application succeeding. Try and enjoy the heat wave and time off while you have it!

nomoreexams

I'd imagine the question of residency and citizenship is for the purposes of the NDP grant, which you would assume would be a CAO administration issue considering the SUSI grants are looked after through CAO?! I find whenever I've rang CAO for information, the biggest problem seems to be nobody knows who to refer me to in the office. I've never been put through to one person in charge of GEM aaplications who knows everything about it.

Agnieszka_88

I really don't understand this huge deal that CAO makes out of the EU status. Shouldn't your passport or your ID be enough of that?

I also don't get why everything has to be certified by Garda. My university transcripts have a website and an access code on them, so that you can verify that they're real. Why add the Garda into that?

amorris452

Agnieszka_88 wrote: »

I really don't understand this huge deal that CAO makes out of the EU status. Shouldn't your passport or your ID be enough of that?

I also don't get why everything has to be certified by Garda. My university transcripts have a website and an access code on them, so that you can verify that they're real. Why add the Garda into that?

I don't get it either. But it's what I was told to do on the phone this morning, so that's what i've done. Although the station I went to said they've done it before so it's clearly not unheard of.

Abby19

Agnieszka_88 wrote: »

I really don't understand this huge deal that CAO makes out of the EU status. Shouldn't your passport or your ID be enough of that?

I also don't get why everything has to be certified by Garda. My university transcripts have a website and an access code on them, so that you can verify that they're real. Why add the Garda into that?

Afaik the EU status is to do with fees. Check out the different costs for EU vs non EU. If you are an undergraduate in Trinity it is €8.5k vs €31k, in RCSI it is €15k vs €47k. There is also a large difference in GEM but I don't know the figures offhand.

And for EU status being a citizen of an EU state is not sufficient, you also have to have resided within the EU for 3 of the 5 years. It is very unfortunate that incorrect info has been provided and now people are having to appeal at a late date. And this residency requirement has caught a fair few people out in the past that I know of, some are coming back to Ireland and giving up good jobs overseas (that would help pay for fees) because the fees jump up so much.

As for a Garda signing your form, you have had to do that for years. Same for applying for a passport. Not sure if it is a throwback to when you might have been known by them (smaller towns etc) or just to get am officer of the state to annotate them.

Agnieszka_88

Abby19 wrote: »

Afaik the EU status is to do with fees. Check out the different costs for EU vs non EU. If you are an undergraduate in Trinity it is €8.5k vs €31k, in RCSI it is €15k vs €47k. There is also a large difference in GEM but I don't know the figures offhand.

And for EU status being a citizen of an EU state is not sufficient, you also have to have resided within the EU for 3 of the 5 years. It is very unfortunate that incorrect info has been provided and now people are having to appeal at a late date. And this residency requirement has caught a fair few people out in the past that I know of, some are coming back to Ireland and giving up good jobs overseas (that would help pay for fees) because the fees jump up so much.

As for a Garda signing your form, you have had to do that for years. Same for applying for a passport. Not sure if it is a throwback to when you might have been known by them (smaller towns etc) or just to get am officer of the state to annotate them.

I suppose it makes sense when you put it like that, even though it makes things much more complicated (wouldn't proof of residence be enough, why the tax forms?).

And about the Garda, the main problem for me is that it has to be them. They won't accept a notary or an appropriate clerk from another country, they insist on them. I don't have first-hand knowledge, but it's what has been told to a friend of mine, who then had to fly in from the UK just to get her transcripts stamped.

pc11

Agnieszka_88 wrote: »

I really don't understand this huge deal that CAO makes out of the EU status. Shouldn't your passport or your ID be enough of that?

I also don't get why everything has to be certified by Garda. My university transcripts have a website and an access code on them, so that you can verify that they're real. Why add the Garda into that?

As far as I understand, yes, a passport or EU ID card is sufficient. I think in this case Stephan is not an EU citizen, but is an Irish resident, so he has the extra requirements.

The Garda certified copy is only for copies of parchments AFAIK, and we all had to do that, it doesn't apply to transcripts as they are not copies.

nomoreexams

How can the gardai certify your parchment??? That makes even less sense that they would certify a foreign parchment or transcripts, they wouldnt have a clue what they're certifying. My college certified my copy and that was sufficient!?

Abby19

Agnieszka_88 wrote: »

I suppose it makes sense when you put it like that, even though it makes things much more complicated (wouldn't proof of residence be enough, why the tax forms?).

Residency is dependent on how many days you are in the country. If you are resident here you are supposed to complete tax returns, or you could be a PAYE worker or on social welfare, etc.
Details of residency below.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/residence.html
But it is very unfortunate that this was not made clear earlier in the process to someone who was clearly looking for this info. And quite surprised given that RCSI would have more overseas students than most other colleges.

pc11

nomoreexams wrote: »

How can the gardai certify your parchment??? That makes even less sense that they would certify a foreign parchment or transcripts, they wouldnt have a clue what they're certifying. My college certified my copy and that was sufficient!?

They're not certifying the parchment, but the copy of it. I'm not saying it makes sense to me, but that's what we're told to do, so we can't do much about it.

The guard told me he wasn't checking it was a faithful copy, I thought he would at least glance at the original and the copy to compare them but he didn't seem too pushed. In fact, what he told me was he was certifying my signature on the copy, not even the copy.

He also didn't seem surprised by it, so it must not be uncommon.

I know they don't want to return documents to us so they don't ask for original parchments. AFAIK everything we send to CAO is scanned and destroyed.

Again, it may not make sense, but we can't change it.

nomoreexams

pc11 wrote: »

They're not certifying the parchment, but the copy of it. I'm not saying it makes sense to me, but that's what we're told to do, so we can't do much about it.

The guard told me he wasn't checking it was a faithful copy, I thought he would at least glance at the original and the copy to compare them but he didn't seem too pushed. He also didn't seem surprised by it, so it must not be uncommon.

I know they don't want to return documents to us so they don't ask for original parchments. AFAIK everything we send to CAO is scanned and destroyed.

Again, it may not make sense, but we can't change it.

Cao's small print just says a certified copy of your parchment, not a Garda certified copy. I rang them and they said you get your college to certify it since they're the issuing body; they're the people to confirm its a copy of the original parchment. It worked for me & there was no issue made of it.

Stephan Grundy

pc11 wrote: »

If you can document all this, it might be worth having a solicitor ready just in case you need to formally protest that you were misled.

CAO only administers this process, so I would have thought that the ultimate decision on status rests with the college. After all, that's why all the college officials get together to review our applications and decide on eligibility.

I'm guessing that you are falling between 2 categories in that you're applying as EU but with a non-EU degree, that may be where some confusion is coming from. That's not to excuse it, of course.

Happily, I can document it - and the possibility has occurred to me.

I had thought that the colleges had the ultimate decision too, but Ms. Golden at RCSI says not, at least not as far as EU status is concerned. That may be the only thing, since she was able to confirm that my academic materials were all in order. But since she was the one who told me in November and April that the only thing I required was the PPSN, my impression is that she did not have the details herself - which would be really inexplicable for a director of admissions.

The confusion seems to have nothing to do with my degree, but to be purely the question of what is required to establish EU tax status. That's why I'm so upset: I should have been told in April that tax records were required, so that I could have gotten them in then and been assured that everything was set now, instead of scrambling around and wondering what I haven't been told now.

Stephan Grundy

nomoreexams wrote: »

Cao's small print just says a certified copy of your parchment, not a Garda certified copy. I rang them and they said you get your college to certify it since they're the issuing body; they're the people to confirm its a copy of the original parchment. It worked for me & there was no issue made of it.

They did tell me that the copy of my parchment had to be certified by the Gardai as well - it may be just a foreign university thing. Mind, I was happy enough to do that, as this country's equivalent of the American "notary public" otherwise seems to be a solicitor, which requires paying for a full appointment with a solicitor just to get a bloody signature. But yeah, I think they must get this fairly regularly, since the Garda who did mine had no questions, just took it in stride as a normal part of duty.

nomoreexams

I don't doubt the validity of a Garda certified copy but someone above said she may have to fly over from the UK specifically to get a Garda to certify her copy, my point is that this is discriminatory since my copy was accepted when it was certified by my college so I don't understand why they won't accept a copy certified by a foreign college?! I get the feeling it may be worth checking with someone else in the CAO since different people seem to be getting different answers clearly.

RCSI obviosuly screwed up in your case since CAO specifically lays the responsibility for determining EU status at their door. Hopefully they'll get it sorted quickly though.

Stephan Grundy

nomoreexams wrote: »

I don't doubt the validity of a Garda certified copy but someone above said she may have to fly over from the UK specifically to get a Garda to certify her copy, my point is that this is discriminatory since my copy was accepted when it was certified by my college so I don't understand why they won't accept a copy certified by a foreign college?! I get the feeling it may be worth checking with someone else in the CAO since different people seem to be getting different answers clearly.

RCSI obviosuly screwed up in your case since CAO specifically lays the responsibility for determining EU status at their door. Hopefully they'll get it sorted quickly though.

If she actually has to fly over - on this short notice - to get a Garda to certify her copy (in time to get the damned thing in the post to CAO for Wednesday), rather than at least accepting a UK solicitor's notarization if not the college certification, that's just insane! And it is sounding to me as though pretty much everyone who got the second "ineligible" letter is being forced to deal with things that they could and should have been fully informed about in April.

I'm still not sure whether it's RCSI or CAO that's ultimately responsible for the screwup with me, or both to some degree plus the cracks (gaping canyons!) in the multi-part system, but Ms. Golden seemed pretty clear that she did not have a final say. Argh. Bring on the endless work hours, psycho-diva surgeons, hostile nurses, combative and unwashed patients, GI ward aromas...they all sound a whole lot better than dealing with the admissions system!

(And remind me that I said that when we actually get into serious hospital duty, please?)

Agnieszka_88

nomoreexams wrote: »

I don't doubt the validity of a Garda certified copy but someone above said she may have to fly over from the UK specifically to get a Garda to certify her copy, my point is that this is discriminatory since my copy was accepted when it was certified by my college so I don't understand why they won't accept a copy certified by a foreign college?! I get the feeling it may be worth checking with someone else in the CAO since different people seem to be getting different answers clearly.

I think there's been a bit of a mix-up here - a friend of mine had to do this last year, not on such a short notice (after the 1st letter), but someone at the CAO clearly told her that they won't accept anything not certified by a Garda. And yes, it is discriminatory, because her documents have been certified by her college (in the UK, but why should it matter?). It all worked out in end, but it doesn't change the fact that she had to take a day off work and fly to Ireland for something that didn't even take 5 minutes.

Stephan Grundy

Had an interesting talk with a friend of mine about the CAO. His perspective was that CAO is chiefly set up for processing Irish undergraduate admissions, with graduate admissions being very definitely secondary - and so they have just the bare minimum (and sometimes less) in place for processing anything coming from outside the Irish system, or anything that is in any way out of the ordinary. Hence the "only Garda-certified copies" - translates as, "We cannot be arsed dealing with more than one way to do things, and this is the easiest for us, so this is the way you must do it" - no equivalents, recognition of foreign legal validity, or anything else that is not precisely their one way, no matter how insane it is to tell someone to fly over from England just to get a Garda signature on something that could perfectly well and legally be verified in England.

If you think that kind of sucks, I won't argue. Because I've always been self-employed, and therefore don't have the P21 form they just asked for, I've been running around all day with my tax accountant and local TD to make absolutely certain that everyone from CAO secretaries to the directors of admissions knows that five years of full assessment reports, a letter from my tax accountant stating that I have paid every year, and a further explanation of why I don't have a P21 (not issued to the self-employed) are truly sufficient to verify that I am and have been for at least 5 years an Irish taxpayer and am therefore entitled to all the benefits thereof. And I'm still worried.

Hypnos

Stephan Grundy wrote: »

Had an interesting talk with a friend of mine about the CAO. His perspective was that CAO is chiefly set up for processing Irish undergraduate admissions, with graduate admissions being very definitely secondary - and so they have just the bare minimum (and sometimes less) in place for processing anything coming from outside the Irish system, or anything that is in any way out of the ordinary. Hence the "only Garda-certified copies" - translates as, "We cannot be arsed dealing with more than one way to do things, and this is the easiest for us, so this is the way you must do it" - no equivalents, recognition of foreign legal validity, or anything else that is not precisely their one way, no matter how insane it is to tell someone to fly over from England just to get a Garda signature on something that could perfectly well and legally be verified in England.

If you think that kind of sucks, I won't argue. Because I've always been self-employed, and therefore don't have the P21 form they just asked for, I've been running around all day with my tax accountant and local TD to make absolutely certain that everyone from CAO secretaries to the directors of admissions knows that five years of full assessment reports, a letter from my tax accountant stating that I have paid every year, and a further explanation of why I don't have a P21 (not issued to the self-employed) are truly sufficient to verify that I am and have been for at least 5 years an Irish taxpayer and am therefore entitled to all the benefits thereof. And I'm still worried.

It's not just the CAO. Most things that involve going through administration are very poorly run and organised. I didn't expect anything better from the CAO. Call the same place twice and each operator will give you a different set of information. That goes for most places. I had to deal with the HEA when I was starting my undergrad and I just needed a simple bit of info. Called once, was given a strange procedure, called again the next day, got something more plausible.

Hypnos

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/hospital-chaos-looms-as-junior-doctors-vote-on-strike-action-29419838.html

Seems like things finally got to the breaking point...

Flange/Flanders

Might force the HSE into action.

Jese, will Thursday week ever come already.

Just a question, does anyone plan on doing part time work next year? I'm contemplating working on a saturday but I also plan on playing rugby so I dont think both will work!!!

Hypnos

Flange/Flanders wrote: »

Might force the HSE into action.

Jese, will Thursday week ever come already.

Just a question, does anyone plan on doing part time work next year? I'm contemplating working on a saturday but I also plan on playing rugby so I dont think both will work!!!

Might do a little work over the summer but definitely not during term. Don't want to stress myself more than needed. I'll just live off as little as possible... That's my plan anyway. Fair play to anyone who can pull of weekend work too.

nomoreexams

Flange/Flanders wrote: »

Might force the HSE into action.

Jese, will Thursday week ever come already.

Just a question, does anyone plan on doing part time work next year? I'm contemplating working on a saturday but I also plan on playing rugby so I dont think both will work!!!

I definitely plan on working during term. I work about 3/4 evenings a week. I don't have an option really. I have to pay rent so there's no escaping work for me. I've spoken to a few students in both colleges and the general consensus is that it's manageable if you can get a job where you have an understanding boss, particularly around exam time.

At the end of the day there's only so many hours in the day that you'll spend in class and studying, it just means that other things may have to give way, like a social life.

Jammyc

Stephan Grundy wrote: »

I think they make it pretty clear that they want a *full* transcript, e.g. all details of everything. The reason for this baffles me, since as far as I can tell the only thing they actually take into account is whether or not you got a 2.1 or better (or equivalent if you went to a US university). But nonetheless, all the materials I've seen stressed the "full transcript" thing.

pc11 wrote: »

Yes, they do say complete transcript, I don't get it either, but them's the rules.

I would start hounding my university for when they can produce the transcript, emphasising the urgency. And I would contact your main GEM college choices admission offices right now to explain the situation and ask what can you do.

Is your GAMSAT enough to assure you of your top choice? If not, you'd may need to ring all the colleges. I know UCD Admissions is almost impossible to phone, try their GEM office, or call in to the Admin building immediately if you can.

I contacted a lot of people about this. Eventually UCC told me that it doesn't matter as long as you have proof of a II.1 and that all the institutions meet together so if they accept it, all the others do as well.

Myself and three of my old classmates submitted the same documentation which didn't have details of modules and we all got the email saying that our documentation was sufficient.

Just thought I'd post in case someone finds themselves in a similar situation in future.

Stephan Grundy

Hypnos wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/hospital-chaos-looms-as-junior-doctors-vote-on-strike-action-29419838.html

Seems like things finally got to the breaking point...

I certainly hope this moves the HSE to get themselves together. As far as I can tell, they are well in the running for "slowest-moving and most inefficient bureaucracy in the Western world". Back two years ago, I was actually looking into the possibility of becoming a PA, and talked to the chap at RCSI who had been trying to get a PA training programme into place there for years. He sighed in an unhappy way and explained that the HSE had, basically, been dicking around on instituting a system with PAs for years with no progress whatsoever, and he didn't expect them to make any progress in the foreseeable future, either. I heard, "guy awesomely frustrated with the system, enough so to bitch over the phone to a total stranger about it".

Hypnos

Stephan Grundy wrote: »

I certainly hope this moves the HSE to get themselves together. As far as I can tell, they are well in the running for "slowest-moving and most inefficient bureaucracy in the Western world". Back two years ago, I was actually looking into the possibility of becoming a PA, and talked to the chap at RCSI who had been trying to get a PA training programme into place there for years. He sighed in an unhappy way and explained that the HSE had, basically, been dicking around on instituting a system with PAs for years with no progress whatsoever, and he didn't expect them to make any progress in the foreseeable future, either. I heard, "guy awesomely frustrated with the system, enough so to bitch over the phone to a total stranger about it".

That's pretty much it. Too many people employed and it's embarrassingly inefficient for the amount of workforce there.

cathy2013

In regard to any problems with appealing your documentation, all internal appeals can now be appealed via the ombudsman if they're unsuccessful.