Is it time to quit

pmct

I farm 30 acres I have 14 cows and calfs 4 incalf heifers and a bull but I have some big farmers around me so there no room to expand and I an increasingly thinking I should quit while the market it at the topp before they go crashing

1chippy

its your decision. i take it your just at it part time. 30 acres ran right can work fine. what says you have to keep up with the jones's.

Farmer Pudsey

pmct wrote: »

I farm 30 acres I have 14 cows and calfs 4 incalf heifers and a bull but I have some big farmers around me so there no room to expand and I an increasingly thinking I should quit while the market it at the topp before they go crashing

Remember when you sell it gone. Are you intending to move will the big farmers around you always be there. With a thirty acre farm I be very slow to be in sucklers you might as well have 40 cows as 14. If it was me I be in a calf/weanling to store system. In 2-3 years as dairy farms expand there will be a surplus of dairy bred calves which will be treated more as a byproduct of the industry than now it may well be profitable to carry these to 15-18 months. But if you sell the land there is no going back.

Or on thirty you could run a nice profitable sheep enterprise of 120 ewe's

bob charles

sell up the stock, rent the land, take a while to examine your options, put a plan together, watch the neighbouring expanding dairy boys implode and hey presto your right back at it

Arrow in the Knee

Take a step back and review your situation.

How old are ya and if your fairly ould do you have anybody to take over?

I would do what Farmer Pudsey said calf/weanling to store/beef or else sell your stock but rent your land out but I wouldn't like someone farming my land!

It's hard enough to get land and once its gone its gone!

Username John

Also to consider is farmers over 40 can lease land tax-free up to a certain threshold.
From Revenue site

Relief For Certain Income From The Leasing Of Farm Land This relief applies to certain income arising from the leasing of farm land.
There is an exemption from income tax for the first €12,000 of annual leasing income where the lease is for a term of at least five years, €15,000 where the lease is for a term of at least seven years and €20,000 where the lease is for a term of at least ten years (these amounts may vary depending on when the lease was made).
The lessor must be aged 40 years...


If you are part time, then I guess this would need to figure in the decision-making as well

pmct

Thanks f the replys I am 33 I have the cert in agriculture done I have spend a few years building up a nice little herd of good quality cows and I wouldnt sell the land but I wonder if I am going in the wright direction at all

Tipp Man

What are your employment opportunities near you like?

Hard to see how 30 cows will go in the future

30 calves to year and halfs would be a nice easy system - bit of work in Feb and March but after that should be handy enough.

I reckon that and a job and you would be doing ok.

If you wanted to continue dealing with cows then try for a farm manager job locally?

keep going

bob charles wrote: »

sell up the stock, rent the land, take a while to examine your options, put a plan together, watch the neighbouring expanding dairy boys implode and hey presto your right back at it

if i was a gambling man id say there is a better chance of a few beef men imploding than dairy men at the moment-the lessons of 07 08 09 have not been forgotten:rolleyes:. pmct i take it the 14 cows is not a fulltime position anyway nor is 30 cows.what is wrong with looking around and buying/selling.you know you have strong buyers and your timing will be good pre 2015 so id say definately look into it.could be the best move you ever made

royalmeath

It all depends on your situation really but on thirty acres you should be ableto run a handy
dairy operation of 40 cows bring on your replacements and dont bother with drystock.
With regards land rental it is hard to get land at the minute but if you do the maths you
wouldnt bother and you would just buy in baled silage and take out a paddock or two along the way. If you go down this path you could still take on a job and have the best of both worlds like wen milk is going well you will be going alright with a few bob to spare similarly when milk is going bad you will have the job to fall back on.

bbam

We farm 35 acres of heavy land and had a 15 cow sucker herd. The cows were too heavy for the ground and we were chasing our tails trying to feed them and then just not making enough. Lost out with no economy of scale.

We sold them out and are working into a system to rear weanlings onto 15-18 months.
We both have off farm jobs and it works great with an off farm job.
Not having heavy cows is easier on the land so less poaching, less time spent repairing pasture.

We only have 20 heifers at the moment but they are so much easier kept and as we improve pasture we plan to keep more.

We would usually have reared sucks but not this year due to cost.

Previous poster mentioned keeping a 40 cow dairy herd on thirty acres, I wouldn't have thought that possible and even then it's full time work and your locked into your farm size so without buying more land it may not be viable in the future.

My point is that unless you have exceptional land you will need to accept it is a part time activity. Don't be afraid to try something different, I think a suckler herd of that size will just break even in the best years.
Good luck, it's a rough crossroads your at, try not to sell up.

Tora Bora

Sitting in the middle of a bunch of "big farners", with your small holding, and knowing they are lusting after your plot, is enough reason to stick it out:cool:

tim04750

Stick it out for a couple of years till you see what way this restructuring of the single farm payment goes and try to protect that.
Contract rearing of replacements for the dairymen? maybe someone else on here could do the math on that one.
Pedigree breeding ?

LostCovey

Great thinking and great advice.

I have nothing to add, just admiring the quality of advice and experience, thius forum must be a great resource if you are at a crossroads and want advice from people with nothing to gain either way.

"Don't sell" seems to be the consensus!

jay gatsby

If I was you I would try to stick it out if I could at all and all the advice above is sound.

However! I think a lot of people would say that progressive sustainable free market farming in Ireland is being severely hampered by this kind of attitude. This size of farm if we are all honest is not going to be a sustainable option on its own. It will be a hobby for the OP while the guys around him who could possibly make a full time living from the game can't expand because this type of land never comes on the market. The OP could have the same enjoyment and lifestyle by working off farm and keeping 3 or 4 acres to tip along with and rent or sell the rest and have a nice income out of it.

As I said just playing devil's advocate here.

Tipp Man

jay gatsby wrote: »

If I was you I would try to stick it out if I could at all and all the advice above is sound.

However! I think a lot of people would say that progressive sustainable free market farming in Ireland is being severely hampered by this kind of attitude. This size of farm if we are all honest is not going to be a sustainable option on its own. It will be a hobby for the OP while the guys around him who could possibly make a full time living from the game can't expand because this type of land never comes on the market. The OP could have the same enjoyment and lifestyle by working off farm and keeping 3 or 4 acres to tip along with and rent or sell the rest and have a nice income out of it.

As I said just playing devil's advocate here.

Well being brutally honest about it - you are completly right and is/will be a major problem for full time farmers

bbam

jay gatsby wrote: »

If I was you I would try to stick it out if I could at all and all the advice above is sound.

However! I think a lot of people would say that progressive sustainable free market farming in Ireland is being severely hampered by this kind of attitude. This size of farm if we are all honest is not going to be a sustainable option on its own. It will be a hobby for the OP while the guys around him who could possibly make a full time living from the game can't expand because this type of land never comes on the market. The OP could have the same enjoyment and lifestyle by working off farm and keeping 3 or 4 acres to tip along with and rent or sell the rest and have a nice income out of it.

As I said just playing devil's advocate here.

Why should OP care how sustainable his neighbours farms are?
Why don't they rent him someone land so he can be full time farming?

OP, do what suits you and your family.
Selling the land is a desperate measure, rent if you must but only sell if there is no other option available. There is nothing wrong with being a small part time farmer, just find a system that works for you.

blue5000

OP what's p1ssing you off, are you after having a rough calving season? I know it can be dis-heartening with all the big guys beside you, they may seem to have it all going for them, but they probably have their own headaches too.

I suggest don't rush into making any big decisions, maybe think about it for a year and if you still feel the same way go ahead and sell the cattle, but if they're gone, they're gone as somebody else already said.

Tipp Man

bbam wrote: »

Why should OP care how sustainable his neighbours farms are?
Why don't they rent him someone land so he can be full time farming?

OP, do what suits you and your family.
Selling the land is a desperate measure, rent if you must but only sell if there is no other option available. There is nothing wrong with being a small part time farmer, just find a system that works for you.

Jay is looking at it from a national point of view - not from this individuals point of view. And Jay is completly correct

lakill Farm

my case ,

started farming March 2010 with 11 calves on 12 acres i bought with the house in November 2009. It has a slatted shed to accom 24 yearlings.

Following year (March 2011) bought 17 calves and had my 11 yearlings wintered, and rented 14 acres . Sold 11 yearlings Oct 201

This year. My 12 acres, 2 acres at the auld lads house (not a farmer) and renting 31 acres for indefinite time. I have 17 of last years yearlings (10-12 months) and i have 11 weaned calves bought March and bought 13 more sat, mon & tues this week, So carrying 17 yearlings to be sold Oct & house 24(hopefully) for winter.

As we both have off farm income, we have increased in numbers and will stick at 22-26 per year. We dont receive any reps, sfp or any other "subs"

Farm plan for 2012 - 2015
2012 -Putting up a 3 bay straw bed shed to feed the 24 calves in one go (Save time and also get to sub section calves depending on strenght)
2013 - Buy a secondhand slurry tanker (1600g) as im close to pig farms and pig **** is cheap compared to CAN/Urea
2014 -Build a new slatted tank and shed to double capacity of shed (allows me to finish them if i want instead of selling at 18months)
2015 - maybe look at buying some land :rolleyes:

so 2010 - 11 calves 0 yealings 0 sales
2011 11 yealings 17 calves 11 sales
2012 17 yealings 24 calves

bbam

Tipp Man wrote: »

Jay is looking at it from a national point of view - not from this individuals point of view. And Jay is completly correct

It may well be a problem for larger farmers. But it doesn't mean small farmers should give up their holdings for the greater good.
Small farms can be viable and second income along with a job if your willing to work both.

Farm sizes will always be a problem and being an island nation where everyone has huge emotional ties to their home townland I don't see much change occurring.

bob charles

I can see the medium sized family farm surviving no matter whats thrown at them, where as the big farms will come under a 'little' pressure and there will be many failures across the board. I would love to have a nice small tidy operation with a profit figure of say 20k. instead of being a rent boy for the banks

Tipp Man

bbam wrote: »

It may well be a problem for larger farmers. But it doesn't mean small farmers should give up their holdings for the greater good.
Small farms can be viable and second income along with a job if your willing to work both.

Farm sizes will always be a problem and being an island nation where everyone has huge emotional ties to their home townland I don't see much change occurring.

I'm not saying that small farmers should give up anything for the greater good - I don't think Jay is either. Thankfully Ireland hasn't come to that and i hope it never will

Just acknowleding that farm size is a problem - and that land is not changing hands as much as it could do

I think most would agree that it is very hard for a full time farmer to beat a small farmer with a half decent job - which is in itself part of the "problem"

jay gatsby

bbam wrote: »

It may well be a problem for larger farmers. But it doesn't mean small farmers should give up their holdings for the greater good.
Small farms can be viable and second income along with a job if your willing to work both.

Two things going on in this thread - 1st is direct advice to the OP - if you were thinking of selling up the stock I can't see that there will ever be a more profitable time to do that. If you think you might miss the farming or you will have kids who might want to take it up don't sell the land.

2nd. If as was indicated in the first post a person doesn't really want to continue in farming then why hold on to the land just because its the done thing? You might have just as much enjoyment with a big garden. This is the issue as I see it - you have some people who don't intend to keep working hard at the land/have noone to take it on in the next generation through no fault/just circumstances. Many of these people keep on the land just for the sake of it which makes the land market very stagnant. I'm not blaming anyone but long term leasing would be a great option, especially if your next generation is not of an age to decide what they want to do. In 10 years you can reassess and decide again. in the meantime some fella with a larger sized operation has been able to move things along for himself.

I can't see the harm in that.

bbam

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'm not saying that small farmers should give up anything for the greater good - I don't think Jay is either. Thankfully Ireland hasn't come to that and i hope it never will

Just acknowleding that farm size is a problem - and that land is not changing hands as much as it could do

I think most would agree that it is very hard for a full time farmer to beat a small farmer with a half decent job - which is in itself part of the "problem"

Is say the numbers of fellas able to supplement their part time farm with off farm income are fewer than in recent years and unlikely to be much of a challenge in the future.
I do recognise it has been an issue in the past.

Farmer Pudsey

Tipp Man wrote: »

I think most would agree that it is very hard for a full time farmer to beat a small farmer with a half decent job - which is in itself part of the "problem"

Define a fulltime farmer
Will this include farmers doing farm contracting ( slurry spreading ploughing baling etc) for other farmers, Cattle dealers/ factory agents buying and hauling cattle for other farmers.

Also there is a lot of big farmers with jobs and how would you define a 'small farmer'

I see alot of farmers both fulltime and part time that are inefficient and efficient. I see dairy farmers useing their cows to cover losses in drystock enterprises. I see very few agriculture contractors that are only at that.

Tipp Man

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Define a fulltime farmer
Will this include farmers doing farm contracting ( slurry spreading ploughing baling etc) for other farmers, Cattle dealers/ factory agents buying and hauling cattle for other farmers.

Also there is a lot of big farmers with jobs and how would you define a 'small farmer'

I see alot of farmers both fulltime and part time that are inefficient and efficient. I see dairy farmers useing their cows to cover losses in drystock enterprises. I see very few agriculture contractors that are only at that.

sorry I should have used the word part time instead of small in the first sentence

Well full time is anybody who'se sole income is derived from the farm - so agri contractors are not full time farmers, neither are vets or anybody else like that

Cattle dealers etc obviously are farmers

I am not 1 to subscribe to the bigger is better agenda - certainly i think once farms get above a certain point they start to become inefficient again - but the rate of land ownership turnover is definately a big problem in this country - and part of the reason for this is the large number of part time farmers

It is what it is - and i can completely understand the reasons behind it - I am merely hightlighting as a problem

Tipp Man

bbam wrote: »

Is say the numbers of fellas able to supplement their part time farm with off farm income are fewer than in recent years and unlikely to be much of a challenge in the future.
I do recognise it has been an issue in the past.

no doubt the recession has impacted this - however the majority of farmers in this country are still part time

20silkcut

In fairness farm output or produce has very marginal impact on how farms grow in this country. It is far more important to have an unmarried uncle with a rake of land that he can't take with him to the grave or be an only child or marry someone with an unmarried uncle or have a motorway go through your land or live near an urban area and get re-zoned.
If none of these things happen you will probably just keep the show on the road and ticking over but there is very little prospect of improving your lot dramatically through farming. And your better off not borrowing, it's just a greasy pole.
I recall being on a teagasc farm walk in a place where super slatted sheds and slurry storage facilities had been built and walkways and rubber slats and diet feeders and big fancy meal bins and it was great and fantastic but it was all bull**** because a motorway had ploughed through the farm a few years previously and another section was turned into a housing estate.
A dog with a mallet up it's hole could see that that it was enriched by these off farm developments.

Tipp Man

20silkcut wrote: »

In fairness farm output or produce has very marginal impact on how farms grow in this country. It is far more important to have an unmarried uncle with a rake of land that he can't take with him to the grave or be an only child or marry someone with an unmarried uncle or have a motorway go through your land or live near an urban area and get re-zoned.
If none of these things happen you will probably just keep the show on the road and ticking over but there is very little prospect of improving your lot dramatically through farming. And your better off not borrowing, it's just a greasy pole.
I recall being on a teagasc farm walk in a place where super slatted sheds and slurry storage facilities had been built and walkways and rubber slats and diet feeders and big fancy meal bins and it was great and fantastic but it was all bull**** because a motorway had ploughed through the farm a few years previously and another section was turned into a housing estate.
A dog with a mallet up it's hole could see that that it was enriched by these off farm developments.

Not sure i agree with that entirely

We tripled our farm size between the mid 80's and the late 90's - solely on farm income - no roads or development etc

Increasing can definately be done (assuming you don't need the land beside you) - But we made sacrifices to do it

20silkcut

Tipp Man wrote: »

20silkcut wrote: »

In fairness farm output or produce has very marginal impact on how farms grow in this country. It is far more important to have an unmarried uncle with a rake of land that he can't take with him to the grave or be an only child or marry someone with an unmarried uncle or have a motorway go through your land or live near an urban area and get re-zoned.
If none of these things happen you will probably just keep the show on the road and ticking over but there is very little prospect of improving your lot dramatically through farming. And your better off not borrowing, it's just a greasy pole.
I recall being on a teagasc farm walk in a place where super slatted sheds and slurry storage facilities had been built and walkways and rubber slats and diet feeders and big fancy meal bins and it was great and fantastic but it was all bull**** because a motorway had ploughed through the farm a few years previously and another section was turned into a housing estate.
A dog with a mallet up it's hole could see that that it was enriched by these off farm developments.

Not sure i agree with that entirely

We tripled our farm size between the mid 80's and the late 90's - solely on farm income - no roads or development etc

Increasing can definately be done (assuming you don't need the land beside you) - But we made sacrifices to do it

No doubt it can be done. But serious sacrifices especially in family situations.

I know of a farmer who is so well off that he doesn't even bother collecting cheques off the factory for months but he has newspaper on a bare concrete floor in his kitchen and drives a 20 year old car and his wife is a harder worker than him and both are fond of the simpler things in life.

If every penny you make is re-invested in the farm then on farm activities will grow the farm.

Bodacious

lakill Farm wrote: »

my case ,

started farming March 2010 with 11 calves on 12 acres i bought with the house in November 2009. It has a slatted shed to accom 24 yearlings.

Following year (March 2011) bought 17 calves and had my 11 yearlings wintered, and rented 14 acres . Sold 11 yearlings Oct 201

This year. My 12 acres, 2 acres at the auld lads house (not a farmer) and renting 31 acres for indefinite time. I have 17 of last years yearlings (10-12 months) and i have 11 weaned calves bought March and bought 13 more sat, mon & tues this week, So carrying 17 yearlings to be sold Oct & house 24(hopefully) for winter.

As we both have off farm income, we have increased in numbers and will stick at 22-26 per year. We dont receive any reps, sfp or any other "subs"

Farm plan for 2012 - 2015
2012 -Putting up a 3 bay straw bed shed to feed the 24 calves in one go (Save time and also get to sub section calves depending on strenght)
2013 - Buy a secondhand slurry tanker (1600g) as im close to pig farms and pig **** is cheap compared to CAN/Urea
2014 -Build a new slatted tank and shed to double capacity of shed (allows me to finish them if i want instead of selling at 18months)
2015 - maybe look at buying some land :rolleyes:

so 2010 - 11 calves 0 yealings 0 sales
2011 11 yealings 17 calves 11 sales
2012 17 yealings 24 calves

You're flying it Lakill! Would you not be an ideal candidate for applying to the national reserve 2012 for entitlements?

johnpawl

Bodacious wrote: »

You're flying it Lakill! Would you not be an ideal candidate for applying to the national reserve 2012 for entitlements?

national reserve for entitlements? tell me more.....! have zero entitlements either!

Tipp Man

20silkcut wrote: »

No doubt it can be done. But serious sacrifices especially in family situations.

I know of a farmer who is so well off that he doesn't even bother collecting cheques off the factory for months but he has newspaper on a bare concrete floor in his kitchen and drives a 20 year old car and his wife is a harder worker than him and both are fond of the simpler things in life.

If every penny you make is re-invested in the farm then on farm activities will grow the farm.

We weren't exactly at the newpapers on bare concrete stage:D