Is sex with a Prostitute Rape?

44leto

Sauve wrote: »

Yep, had heard this before alright.
Doesn't make sense really, as if you can't proposition someone, then how do you come to an arrangement?!
Pull someone, then hope they pay you?

Not really, you are paying for their company, and as some people do in each others company, they have sex.

enda1

44leto wrote: »

Not really, you are paying for their company, and as some people do in each others company, they have sex.

Nah, ye pay for a condom and they just show you how to use it :P

Milk & Honey

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Sex with a prostitute is rape if you don't pay

No it isn't. She agreed to the sex.

In R v Linekar (1995) QB 250, a prostitute stated the fact that she would not have consented to sexual intercourse if she had known that her client was not intending to pay, but there was no fraud-induced consent as to the nature of the activity, nor was the identity of the client relevant.

Sauve

44leto wrote: »

Not really, you are paying for their company, and as some people do in each others company, they have sex.

Oh yeah, sure escorts are legal....
Duh. (slow day for me)

hullaballoo

Milk & Honey wrote: »

No it isn't. She agreed to the sex.

In R v Linekar (1995) QB 250, a prostitute stated the fact that she would not have consented to sexual intercourse if she had known that her client was not intending to pay, but there was no fraud-induced consent as to the nature of the activity, nor was the identity of the client relevant.

First year law student?

mariano rivera

DarkJager wrote: »

No. That's like saying buying a pair of runners which were created in a sweatshop makes you guilty of supporting the practice. You're paying for something, it's not your responsibility to know where it came from.

Interesting thought process!

Say a House party is going on.

Girl asleep intoxicated in a room upstairs.
A man comes into a room.

In a similar situation with a prostitute who has been forced/ coerced into prostitution, she does not want to have sex with this man.

He has sex with her. However, this guy leaves the girl money after he is finished

He has paid for IT.

Not his responsibility where IT came from

Right?

LittleBook

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Sex with a prostitute is rape if you don't pay

Not according to US Judge Teresa Carr Deni ... it's "theft of services". :mad:

A 2007 case before Deni involved a 20 year-old prostitute who alleged that she was sexually assaulted by Dominique Gindraw and at least 4 other men. She claimed that she agreed to have protected sex with Gindraw for $150 after contacting him through Craigslist.

Upon meeting him, she alleged that he asked her to also have protected sex with his friend for an additional $100. She reported that when the other man arrived, he threatened her with a gun and demanded that she have unprotected sex with at least 3 additional men.

After filing a police report, four men were arrested and charged with rape and assault. Deni dismissed all of the sex and assault charges and instead charged them with armed robbery and theft of services. She justified her decision by stating:

"She consented and she didn't get paid . . . I thought it was a robbery." And that a case like this "minimizes true rape cases and demeans women who are really raped."

The same defendant was charged with a similar crime 4 days later. However, assistant district attorney Rich DeSipio refused to present the case before Judge Deni owing to her earlier ruling, arguing that "I wouldn't demean her [the victim] that way." Judge Deni threw out the second case for failure to prosecute.

Seachmall

Sauve wrote: »

Yep, had heard this before alright.
Doesn't make sense really, as if you can't proposition someone, then how do you come to an arrangement?!
Pull someone, then hope they pay you?

You can proposition them online, over the phone or in person (just not in a public space).

It's not a loophole as the restrictions are explicitly stated, if they meant to outlaw it they would've just outlawed it.

Dravokivich

Calliope Long Urinal wrote: »

I don't think its a grey area if she was trafficed then she has no free will she is a slave . She has no consent to give unless she wants a beating . So In essence it is rape IMO

Who are you going to want to see persecuted for it?

The person who trafficed her and forced her into the sex industry?
The person who paid for her time, under the impression she was not forced into it?

To me this is clear on the first person. But the second, not so much.

Casillas wrote: »

Either way it's illegal;

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1206/limerick.html

As mentioend by someone else, take note of the charge. The men were charged with soliciting someone. If the act of prostituition was illegal, the prostitute would be the one being charged there.

Seachmall wrote: »

You can proposition them online, over the phone or in person (just not in a public space).

It's not a loophole as the restrictions are explicitly stated, if they meant to outlaw it they would've just outlawed it.

The online thing is a bit odd as well. Which you'll notice by the most predominant websites not being registered in Ireland even though they are entirely for listing Irish Prostitutes.

Seachmall

Dravokivich wrote: »

Which you'll notice by the most predominant websites not being registered in Ireland even though they are entirely for listing Irish Prostitutes.

I wouldn't know.

<.<

>.>

Dravokivich

Seachmall wrote: »

I wouldn't know.

<.<

>.>

Apologies, allow me to rephrase that:

Dravokivich wrote: »

The online thing is a bit odd as well. Which I noticed by the most predominant websites not being registered in Ireland even though they are entirely for listing Irish Prostitutes.

Dravokivich

Dravokivich wrote: »

Calliope Long Urinal wrote: »

I don't think its a grey area if she was trafficed then she has no free will she is a slave . She has no consent to give unless she wants a beating . So In essence it is rape IMO

Who are you going to want to see persecuted for it?

The person who trafficed her and forced her into the sex industry?
The person who paid for her time, under the impression she was not forced into it?

To me this is clear on the first person. But the second, not so much.

Casillas wrote: »

Either way it's illegal;

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1206/limerick.html

As mentioend by someone else, take note of the charge. The men were charged with soliciting someone. If the act of prostituition was illegal, the prostitute would be the one being charged there.

Seachmall wrote: »

You can proposition them online, over the phone or in person (just not in a public space).

It's not a loophole as the restrictions are explicitly stated, if they meant to outlaw it they would've just outlawed it.

The online thing is a bit odd as well. Which you'll notice by the most predominant websites not being registered in Ireland even though they are entirely for listing Irish Prostitutes.

Obviously the people who made her or him a sex slave . Prosecuting the client or the prostitute is a waste of time as one party is clearly innocent and the latter may not of been aware that the transaction was against the will of the prostitute .

Dravokivich

Calliope Long Urinal wrote: »

Dravokivich wrote: »

Calliope Long Urinal wrote: »

I don't think its a grey area if she was trafficed then she has no free will she is a slave . She has no consent to give unless she wants a beating . So In essence it is rape IMO

Who are you going to want to see persecuted for it?

The person who trafficed her and forced her into the sex industry?
The person who paid for her time, under the impression she was not forced into it?

To me this is clear on the first person. But the second, not so much.

Casillas wrote: »

Either way it's illegal;

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1206/limerick.html

As mentioend by someone else, take note of the charge. The men were charged with soliciting someone. If the act of prostituition was illegal, the prostitute would be the one being charged there.

Seachmall wrote: »

You can proposition them online, over the phone or in person (just not in a public space).

It's not a loophole as the restrictions are explicitly stated, if they meant to outlaw it they would've just outlawed it.

The online thing is a bit odd as well. Which you'll notice by the most predominant websites not being registered in Ireland even though they are entirely for listing Irish Prostitutes.

Obviously the people who made her or him a sex slave . Prosecuting the client or the prostitute is a waste of time as one party is clearly innocent and the latter may not of been aware that the transaction was against the will of the prostitute .

It wasnt all that obvious. The grey area mentioned earlier was in reference to the client.

If you mean rape in a legal sense, then I don't know.

But in a moral sense, if you can tell she doesn't want to be there, it's rape.

Timistry

OP, what in the name of god are you on about? Why oh why in ireland is it the end user who is the bad guy??? In the case of drug dealers the customer will more than likely be punished more than the dealer. On the internet, users are at fault while ISP's are immune. As regards prostitution, i cannot see for the life of me see how that is rape. if is all above board with money changing hands, concentual and not aggressive i dont see the problem. In Holland the government earn a fortune every year in taxes from the industry. Not to mention the tax earned from weed and besides, Holland has the lowest drug consumption in europe, go figure:rolleyes:

You go to countries in asia and you will see how it is a way of life for poor misfortunes while in ireland it is a huge money spinner in ireland for criminals. So dont talk to me about rape or justice:mad:

Dravokivich

Timistry wrote: »

OP, what in the name of god are you on about? Why oh why in ireland is it the end user who is the bad guy??? In the case of drug dealers the customer will more than likely be punished more than the dealer. On the internet, users are at fault while ISP's are immune. As regards prostitution, i cannot see for the life of me see how that is rape. if is all above board with money changing hands, concentual and not aggressive i dont see the problem. In Holland the government earn a fortune every year in taxes from the industry. Not to mention the tax earned from weed and besides, Holland has the lowest drug consumption in europe, go figure:rolleyes:

You go to countries in asia and you will see how it is a way of life for poor misfortunes while in ireland it is a huge money spinner in ireland for criminals. So dont talk to me about rape or justice:mad:

If you read the OP, you'd see its about women trafficed and forced Into the sex Industry.

Dudess

IvySlayer wrote: »

What grinds my ****ing gears is women who go out and sell their bodies and then come back and say they're the victims.

It can be a murky area, and worked in by people from murky backgrounds. To say they all just choose it (the seedier side of it - different story for "high-class" escorts IMO) no bother, no influencing factors, and then it's hypocritical of them to feel victimised years later (despite the fact they could be assaulted and raped) is far too simplistic.

To make an analogy: people who choose to take a job in a factory where they're treated like shyte have every right to complain too.

SeanW

Effects wrote: »

It does show that you support sweat shops. Just because you might not think about it or choose to blank it out doesn't mean you aren't supporting it. Of course it's your responsibility to know where the goods you buy come from. You might not care where they come from but should think about it.

Yes, I think a person has a moral responsibility to consider the origin of all the products and services they buy. But not a legal one, generally speaking.

Rocket19 wrote: »

Sure, having a pimp controlling her is obvious duress, but what about a woman who can't feed her kids and sees no other way to earn money?

So ... what happens? In a perfect world, noone would have to do that to get money to live off. But it's not a perfect world, and if a woman has to do this, it's a necessity ... where is the issue with the subsequent transactions?

What about a girl who has serious self-esteem issues, who doesn't even see how selling herself may hurt her? No-one is holding a gun to her head in either case, but I'm not sure that makes it right.

Because every john is a master psychologist? You gotta be kidding me!

I suppose it's up the guy (if he must pay for sex, and let's face it, this is always gonna happen) to gauge the situation, and the most he can really do is give her respect.

Please explain what you mean by this.

Dudess

Yes, a john really needs to be a master psychologist to spot a vulnerable person and would never take advantage of this, no sir.

philologos

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You could just as easily say that our laws facilitate rape, abuse and trafficking of prostitutes.

The more that prostitution is criminalised and driven underground the more it becomes a revenue stream for criminals and thugs.

Legalise.

Regulate.

Offer services to prostitutes.

Or take the approach of the Swedish Government and drastically reduce it and human trafficking in the process, which I think is much better for everybody. Punish those who seek it out, not those who are caught up in it.

Legalisation won't make the problems of coercion go away.

The_Thing

The London Metropolitan University carried out a study into migrant sex-workers, they found that:

Only 13% felt exploited and less than half of those (6%) felt forced into prostitution. Which means 87% were perfectly happy hooking.
Of the ones that were exploited, most were in the country illegally; others didn’t know their rights, or had personal issues
The sex workers were from every kind of background: from rich to poor, post-graduates to grade-school drop outs, and good families to dysfunctional ones
Most of them were not prostitutes before moving to the U.K., and did not move there thinking they’d get into it
The majority started being call girls after working in jobs that didn’t pay well and/or had bad working conditions, mainly “in the hospitality and care sectors”
They got into the business through friends and colleagues that were in it who seemed to like it
What they didn’t like about it: the stigma of being a whore, the hardship of leading a double life (especially with boyfriends and family), and the fact that since it’s illegal, a small number of jackasses feel it’s ok to steal from or beat them
What they liked about it: the money, the hours, meeting interesting people, traveling, excitement, moving up in the world, better living and working conditions
Most of them specifically pointed out that they liked their job; they were on friendly terms with clients and colleagues and their life was generally better than before

LInk -> http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/research-units/iset/projects/esrc-migrant-workers.cfm

Dravokivich

philologos wrote: »

Or take the approach of the Swedish Government and drastically reduce it and human trafficking in the process, which I think is much better for everybody. Punish those who seek it out, not those who are caught up in it.

Legalisation won't make the problems of coercion go away.

The Swedish system does seem to work in a way, but I don't think it's right to solely prosecute those who seek it. It also doesn't take into account that human trafficing does not occurr only for the "Sex Industry."

nozzferrahhtoo

philologos wrote: »

Legalisation won't make the problems of coercion go away.

I doubt anyone is claiming it would make it go away. One could certainly expect significant reductions however.

NiallFH

For sex to be consensual both party's have to agree to it obviously. If there is no consent, its rape. In the case of a prostitute:

1. Client offers money
2. Prostitute accepts money and agrees
3. Sex

So technically there is consent, even if she is being forced into it by a third party, she consents, as said it would be a bit of a gray area but I wouldnt call it rape.

I read about a case a while ago where a husband went to a bar and got 2 or 3 guys, told them he and his wife were into sleeping with other people, long story short he gets them all to come to his and sleep with his wife, he tells the men prior that she will scream etc etc but thats just roleplay and not to stop.

The men got off with it as they had no intention to carry out a crime, cant remember what happened to the husband. Not the exact same case but similar as someone seeking a prostitute doesnt intend to rape.

Yamanoto

philologos wrote: »

Or take the approach of the Swedish Government and drastically reduce it and human trafficking in the process, which I think is much better for everybody. Punish those who seek it out, not those who are caught up in it.

Did you even read the page you linked to?

Socialstyrelsen (National Board of Health and Welfare)
Monitoring and evaluation of the law was delegated to the Socialstyrelsen, which has produced three reports (2000, 2004, 2007). These acknowledged the difficulties in evaluating the situation and provided no hard evidence that the law had in any way achieved its objectives. The 2007 report states that street prostitution is on the increase after an initial decline and that customers and sex workers now use the internet and mobile phone to communicate.

FlyingIrishMan

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Sex with a prostitute is rape if you don't pay

No, thats stealing

Pushtrak

philologos wrote: »

Or take the approach of the Swedish Government and drastically reduce it and human trafficking in the process, which I think is much better for everybody. Punish those who seek it out, not those who are caught up in it.

Legalisation won't make the problems of coercion go away.

The Swedish model operates on a faulty premise. That being that they assume that no one working in the sex trade wants to be doing so. Oh, also...

What the above is tracking

Pimping and aggravated procuring
Human trafficking for sexual purposes, total
Human trafficking for sexual purposes with person over 18 years
Human trafficking for sexual purposes with person under 18 years
Human trafficking for other purposes, total
Human trafficking for other purposes with person over 18 years
Human trafficking for other purposes with person under 18 years
Purchase of sexual services
Purchase of sexual acts by children

Source

Chamone MF

If I ever did pay a girl I'd search a bit and make sure she was into her late 20's early 30's, had some trappings of wealth and her own place. Also English as a first language would be a must as would a western nationality. Enhancements, botox etc would be the go sign - if she can afford them shes obviously independent and not a victim of trafficking, she's doing it by choice.
These would be measures to insure against some of the brutal things Ive read about trafficked women.

Pushtrak

Sex trafficking is horrendous, and needs to be dealt with to the fullest extent of the law. I can not stress that point enough. The current system being in place, though, contributes a toxicity to the sex trade and the client, if worried there was trafficking taking place would have no means of trying to alert the gardai as it would only incriminate themselves.

Edit: In short, as I see it, shouting out the moralizing no-thought-required preachy McPrechyson shows a disconection with reality. IMO, of course.

2 stroke

If there are trafficked persons in this country, the state is guilty of not doing enough to stamp out trafficking, just as government everywhere are guilty of creating the conditions that make it necessary to work in the sex industry. I know some girls are involved to feed drug habits, but many sell their bodies to provide a better life for their families.

Pushtrak

2 stroke wrote: »

If there are trafficked persons in this country, the state is guilty of not doing enough to stamp out trafficking, just as government everywhere are guilty of creating the conditions that make it necessary to work in the sex industry. I know some girls are involved to feed drug habits, but many sell their bodies to provide a better life for their families.

What if the condition you speak of is the person wanting to work in the sex trade? It ought not be something that is glossed over.

2 stroke

Pushtrak wrote: »

What if the condition you speak of is the person wanting to work in the sex trade? It ought not be something that is glossed over.

I had written a much longer post, then deleted much of it as I felt it was too long.
I am not saying ladies actually want to work in the sex industry but that many see it as the only way to fund their own, or their childrens education, to put food on the table and pay the bills, to do this they may also have to support a parasite pimp.