Lowry A picture says a thousand Words

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

No Bankers convicted either but would you let them handle your money ?

How many people in Ireland do not have bank accounts?

tayto lover

djpbarry wrote: »

How many people in Ireland do not have bank accounts?

Bertie and probably Seanie, Fingers etc and those who are trying to hide it. Unless they have put it in their wives names of course.

rodento

djpbarry wrote: »

Ignoring for a moment the certain criteria must be met before a TD can take their seat in the Dail (a tax clearance cert must be provided, for example), more generally, who would decide who should be barred and what criteria would be need to be met? Take Lowry for instance - on what grounds would he be barred from the Dail, bearing in mind that he has not (as far as I am aware) been convicted of any crime (yet)?

Do you not think a finding from a tribunal should at the very least debar someone from taking political office:eek:

Leaving them free to try and clear their name if they so wish

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

Bertie and probably Seanie, Fingers etc and those who are trying to hide it. Unless they have put it in their wives names of course.

Great. Any chance you could answer my earlier questions?

rodento wrote: »

Do you not think a finding from a tribunal should at the very least debar someone from taking political office

How would that work in practice? Remember, a tribunal is not a court - he's not been found guilty of a crime (although he is obviously guilty of acting immorally).

Again, I'll stress at this point that I think it's shameful that the electorate in North Tipp repeatedly return Lowry to the Dail, but I really don't think barring certain individuals from holding office is the way to approach this. We shouldn't be asking how do we bar certain individuals from the Dail. What we should be asking is why the hell are these individuals being elected in the first place.

tayto lover

djpbarry wrote: »

But how is that going to work in practice? Who decides what defines corruption? Individual parties? Could FG simply decide that they were not going to entertain representations from a particular TD or group of TD's, leaving those TDs' constituents without a voice in the Dail?

As I said above, I'm not defending Lowry at all, nor am I defending those who vote for him. But the fact remains that he has been democratically elected and he has to be treated as such.

The political parties should themselves define what corruption is and make sure they are well above it. But of course they can't because they are aware of their own members having shady dealings and the leaders might even be associated with them.
Constantly meeting with Lowry after what the Tribunal said about him was just in-your-face politics i.e. arrogance. That's just my opinion. I know the Tribunal is not a court but to just seemingly ignore it's findings after being part of setting it up or agreeing to it being set up makes the whole episode worse.
I will never cease to be amazed by the difference in the standards of politicians when in opposition and then when they get elected. It's sickening.

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

The political parties should themselves define what corruption is and make sure they are well above it.

But Lowry is independent?

tayto lover wrote: »

I know the Tribunal is not a court but to just seemingly ignore it's findings...

Who's ignoring it's findings? The Gardai certainly aren't.

tayto lover

djpbarry wrote: »

But Lowry is independent?
Who's ignoring it's findings? The Gardai certainly aren't.

Lowry is Independent now but obviously still on very friendly terms with some/many F.G. members. It just does not seem right at all.

I don't know what the Gardai are taking seriously or indeed ignoring with regard to the Tribunals but I do hope they are digging deep for evidence of criminality inc bribery and corruption.

Wider Road

djpbarry wrote: »

tayto lover wrote: »

The political parties should themselves define what corruption is and make sure they are well above it.

But Lowry is independent?

tayto lover wrote: »

I know the Tribunal is not a court but to just seemingly ignore it's findings...

Who's ignoring it's findings? The Gardai certainly aren't.

Have we (or you djpbarry) any evidence that the Gardai are certainly not ignoring the findings of the Tribunal?

LONE WOLFF

djpbarry wrote: »

Again, I'll stress at this point that I think it's shameful that the electorate in North Tipp repeatedly return Lowry to the Dail

Lowry is loved and hated in equal measure down here.
The main problem is that 50% of the people love him.

Wider Road

LONE WOLFF wrote: »

djpbarry wrote: »

Again, I'll stress at this point that I think it's shameful that the electorate in North Tipp repeatedly return Lowry to the Dail

Lowry is loved and hated in equal measure down here.
The main problem is that 50% of the people love him.

That's just not true.
Why did you decide to text that 50% love Ml Lowry? How can you back that up?
I think you made up a figure, why?

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

Lowry is Independent now but obviously still on very friendly terms with some/many F.G. members.

He's an elected TD - FG have to deal with him. That doesn't necessarily mean he has many friends within the party (although he probably has some). But again, it comes down to the electorate. If people don't want to see their representative being pally with Lowry, then it's up to people to let their representative know about it: "I don't approve of what Lowry's done, so keep your distance from him or you'll be losing my support."

djpbarry

Wider Road wrote: »

Have we (or you djpbarry) any evidence that the Gardai are certainly not ignoring the findings of the Tribunal?

You want me to provide evidence that the Gardai are not doing something? How would that work?

golfball37

According to the tribunals the Gardaí have not served this state with distinction when it comes to corruption, sadly there's no evidence to suggest this has changed depsite the assertions above.

4 years on and still no Anglo movement is just another blot on their copybook.

djpbarry

golfball37 wrote: »

4 years on and still no Anglo movement is just another blot on their copybook.

This assumes that (a) somebody at Anglo was guilty of criminal activity and (b) that 4 years was a sufficient length of time to build a case against them. Neither are valid assumptions.

golfball37

djpbarry wrote: »

This assumes that (a) somebody at Anglo was guilty of criminal activity and (b) that 4 years was a sufficient length of time to build a case against them. Neither are valid assumptions.

Transferring money from 1 institution to anothers balance sheet to prop up a company's value is a crime. Nobody has denied this has happened in Anglo?

Or maybe your being selective?

djpbarry

golfball37 wrote: »

Transferring money from 1 institution to anothers balance sheet to prop up a company's value is a crime. Nobody has denied this has happened in Anglo?

Ok? That doesn't contradict what I said?

golfball37

djpbarry wrote: »

Ok? That doesn't contradict what I said?

So you are admitting a crime did take place in Anglo despite saying it might not have previously?

tayto lover

We are going off topic a bit here and really we should stick to the Lowry issues.

I believe this man is at least tainted as has been decided by a Tribunal set up by our Government. The fact that this has been decided is enough for me to warrant that Government parties should shun meetings with him regardless of him being elected.
If it were recognised that he was being shunned because of what the Tribunal said (even though it's not a court) then the people who elected him might think twice about voting for him again as nobody is listening to him, meeting him or recognising his position.
What's the point of having Tribunals at all if nobody listens to what they decide?
The Government ministers refusing to have any dealings with him would be a first step.

djpbarry

golfball37 wrote: »

So you are admitting a crime did take place in Anglo despite saying it might not have previously?

I'm saying I really don't know what happened in Anglo as I don't have all the facts to hand. Neither do you. Hence the need for the Garda investigation.

I'm not really sure what this has to do with Lowry?

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

I believe this man is at least tainted as has been decided by a Tribunal set up by our Government. The fact that this has been decided is enough for me to warrant that Government parties should shun meetings with him regardless of him being elected.

Suppose government parties decided they weren't going to have anything to do with Sinn Fein - would that be acceptable?

tayto lover

djpbarry wrote: »

Suppose government parties decided they weren't going to have anything to do with Sinn Fein - would that be acceptable?

Suppose that even Sinn Fein decided not to have anything to do with them ?

No back to reality. Sinn Fein were not the subject of a Govt appointed Tribunal in fairness.

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

Sinn Fein were not the subject of a Govt appointed Tribunal in fairness.

My point is that members of the Dail would have their reasons for not wanting to deal with them. But, they have to. In the same way, they have to deal with Lowry.

You have to be consistent. If it is decided that Lowry should be black-listed, that opens up quite a can of worms. It seems far more logical to tackle the problem at its root - the electorate who are returning Lowry to the Dail in the first place.

mikemac1

The people of North Tipperary/South Offaly are now labelled as a problem that have to be tackled?

tayto lover

djpbarry wrote: »

My point is that members of the Dail would have their reasons for not wanting to deal with them. But, they have to. In the same way, they have to deal with Lowry.

You have to be consistent. If it is decided that Lowry should be black-listed, that opens up quite a can of worms. It seems far more logical to tackle the problem at its root - the electorate who are returning Lowry to the Dail in the first place.

You cannot seemingly remove the "parish pump" from Irish politics. If they cannot see the problems with Lowry then what can you do ? That's why I believe the only way to get around it is for other politicians to snub him. He obviously is still doing favours for his constituents but if he cannot provide that service then they will eventually abandon him. The man is tainted.

Wider Road

djpbarry wrote: »

tayto lover wrote: »

Sinn Fein were not the subject of a Govt appointed Tribunal in fairness.

My point is that members of the Dail would have their reasons for not wanting to deal with them. But, they have to. In the same way, they have to deal with Lowry.

You have to be consistent. If it is decided that Lowry should be black-listed, that opens up quite a can of worms. It seems far more logical to tackle the problem at its root - the electorate who are returning Lowry to the Dail in the first place.

How can you deal with "the electorate who are returning Lowry to the Dail in the first place".

golfball37

Wider Road wrote: »

How can you deal with "the electorate who are returning Lowry to the Dail in the first place".

More refereeing performances like we saw in the 2009 All Ireland final would be a good start !

Wider Road

golfball37 wrote: »

Wider Road wrote: »

How can you deal with "the electorate who are returning Lowry to the Dail in the first place".

More refereeing performances like we saw in the 2009 All Ireland final would be a good start !

That's unfair on us in South Tipp!

LONE WOLFF

Wider Road wrote: »

That's just not true.
Why did you decide to text that 50% love Ml Lowry? How can you back that up?
I think you made up a figure, why?

Sorry, that should have been 30%

rodento

Couple of interesting articles in the papers this weekend

Welcome to Lowryland from the times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/0505/1224315639183.html?via=mr

& Kenny lashed over affection for pal lowry form the sindo

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/john-drennan-kenny-lashed-over-affection-for-pal-lowry-3101491.html

Couple of quotes from the articles
He believed that with Denis O'Brien's new dominance of Independent Newspapers he would be getting a better press "definitely.

One FG source told the Sunday Independent that the sharpest confrontation occurred when the Tipperary TD Noel Coonan "criticised the close attention Michael Lowry has been receiving from the Government'' and claimed "Lowry has been dominating the attention of ministers

Kinda like this one from the times:D

At the end of 1996, when he had to resign from the rainbow-coalition government and from the Fine Gael party, he made a long personal statement to the Dáil. He spoke about the work on his home at Holycross, in Co Tipperary, that was paid for by Dunnes Stores, and denied that the arrangement involved tax evasion. “If someone were trying to hide income, would he or she not be more likely to put it in an offshore account?” he asked.
A few months later the McCracken tribunal, which had investigated the Dunnes payments, expressed its astonishment at what Lowry had said, given that it had examined two offshore accounts Lowry had in his own name, one with Bank of Ireland in the Isle of Man and another with an AIB subsidiary in Jersey. It had also examined a third account held in the Isle of Man in a company name that also held money for Lowry’s benefit.

djpbarry wrote: »

He's an elected TD - FG have to deal with him. That doesn't necessarily mean he has many friends within the party (although he probably has some). But again, it comes down to the electorate. If people don't want to see their representative being pally with Lowry, then it's up to people to let their representative know about it: "I don't approve of what Lowry's done, so keep your distance from him or you'll be losing my support."

No they don't and according to the article in the Indo, even FG TD's are surprised at his preferential treatment

Wider Road

rodento wrote: »

Couple of interesting articles in the papers this weekend

Welcome to Lowryland from the times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/0505/1224315639183.html?via=mr

& Kenny lashed over affection for pal lowry form the sindo

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/john-drennan-kenny-lashed-over-affection-for-pal-lowry-3101491.html

Couple of quotes from the articles
He believed that with Denis O'Brien's new dominance of Independent Newspapers he would be getting a better press "definitely.

One FG source told the Sunday Independent that the sharpest confrontation occurred when the Tipperary TD Noel Coonan "criticised the close attention Michael Lowry has been receiving from the Government'' and claimed "Lowry has been dominating the attention of ministers

Kinda like this one from the times:D

At the end of 1996, when he had to resign from the rainbow-coalition government and from the Fine Gael party, he made a long personal statement to the Dáil. He spoke about the work on his home at Holycross, in Co Tipperary, that was paid for by Dunnes Stores, and denied that the arrangement involved tax evasion. “If someone were trying to hide income, would he or she not be more likely to put it in an offshore account?” he asked.
A few months later the McCracken tribunal, which had investigated the Dunnes payments, expressed its astonishment at what Lowry had said, given that it had examined two offshore accounts Lowry had in his own name, one with Bank of Ireland in the Isle of Man and another with an AIB subsidiary in Jersey. It had also examined a third account held in the Isle of Man in a company name that also held money for Lowry’s benefit.

djpbarry wrote: »

He's an elected TD - FG have to deal with him. That doesn't necessarily mean he has many friends within the party (although he probably has some). But again, it comes down to the electorate. If people don't want to see their representative being pally with Lowry, then it's up to people to let their representative know about it: "I don't approve of what Lowry's done, so keep your distance from him or you'll be losing my support."

No they don't and according to the article in the Indo, even FG TD's are surprised at his preferential treatment

Yeah, Noel Coonan FG TD in TN is upset with the Lowry factor in the current govt. What side was Coonan on during the latest FG leadership battle?

mikemac1

Wider Road, he supported Enda Kenny


Mr Coonan, Mr Invisible

If he outworked Lowry then maybe more would vote for him and leave Team Lowry

But he does nothing, barely ran an election campaign at all and is outworked by everyone, Máire Hoctor was more active then he was

He's probably safe being a sitting TD but if FG give him a running mate next time he might lose to them

[Jackass]

FF mainstream party trying their best to look as similar to FG as possible, hoping that some of the stink surrounding them will rub off on FG, and now trying to forge links between just about the only corrupt former (and expelled) member to try and water down the sh*t storm surrounding the corrupt business party (AKA Brown Paper Bag FF).

Lolers.

djpbarry

mikemac1 wrote: »

The people of North Tipperary/South Offaly are now labelled as a problem that have to be tackled?

The idea of electing a TD solely for the purpose of local/personal gain is a problem in Irish politics. I'm not saying the electorate in Lowry's constituency are a particular problem, they're just the best example of the wider problem - knowingly electing shysters because they managed to get the road fixed.

Wider Road

[Quote=[Jackass];78546178]FF mainstream party trying their best to look as similar to FG as possible, hoping that some of the stink surrounding them will rub off on FG, and now trying to forge links between just about the only corrupt former (and expelled) member to try and water down the sh*t storm surrounding the corrupt business party (AKA Brown Paper Bag FF).

Lolers.[/Quote]


Have you any evidence of this "FF mainstream party trying their best to look as similar to FG as possible" or did you just make it up?

Also, What are "Lolers"?