Ombudsman says one Garda should face diciplinary action over Corrib comments.

BattleCorp

Anybody any opinions on the above story where a member of the Gardai made a joke about rape with his colleagues without knowing that the conversation was being taped?

Should he face disciplinary action?

My own personal view was that it was a private conversation between colleagues and in fairness, the comment can clearly be seen to be a joke, and not a threat to the woman in question, so no, I don't think disciplinary action should be taken.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Don't tell me it's happened again.

eviltwin

An odd thing to joke about....

Born to Die

It was at worst a crass joke but it shows the disdain that some Gardai hold for the public, as they protect the wealthy.

prinz

BattleCorp wrote: »

My own personal view was that it was a private conversation between colleagues and in fairness, the comment can clearly be seen to be a joke, and not a threat to the woman in question, so no, I don't think disciplinary action should be taken.

Unprofessional on the job. Yes he should be disciplined. Should he lose his job? No. It's not at that level. Slap on the wrist.

However before people get the wrong idea, the joke about 'rape' IIRC was because one of the women involved had made accusations against gardaí prior to that incident...it wasn't a case that they just picked rape out of the blue to joke about.

BattleCorp

eviltwin wrote: »

An odd thing to joke about....

It might be an odd thing to joke about but hey, bad taste isn't a crime as far as I know.

MrStuffins

It was a joke in bad taste, not a dosciplinary matter IMO!

MrStuffins

prinz wrote: »

However before people get the wrong idea, the joke about 'rape' IIRC was because one of the women involved had made accusations against gardaí prior to that incidence...it wasn't a case that they just picked rape out of the blue to joke about.

Any details on this?

I mean, if the rape allegation had been upheld, then that makes it even worse taste!

If she'd been spoofing and it was a false allegation, then f*ck her!

FatherLen

Oh cool my time machine works.

eviltwin

BattleCorp wrote: »

It might be an odd thing to joke about but hey, bad taste isn't a crime as far as I know.

Never said it was. A bit more sensitivity from the fellas involved wouldn't go amiss though. Can you imagine hearing nurses in a hospice joking about cancer? They would be read the riot act. Agree he shouldn't be sacked.

BattleCorp

MrStuffins wrote: »

Any details on this?

I mean, if the rape allegation had been upheld, then that makes it even worse taste!

If she'd been spoofing and it was a false allegation, then f*ck her!

Yep, there's a recording of the conversation so the cop did say what he is accused of saying. He made a sh1te joke about raping a protester. And after listening to the conversation, it's clear that it was a joke and never meant as an actual threat to rape the woman.

prinz

MrStuffins wrote: »

Any details on this?
I mean, if the rape allegation had been upheld, then that makes it even worse taste! If she'd been spoofing and it was a false allegation, then f*ck her!

IIRC there was a video of the time the gardaí involved had cut this woman off a tractor I think it was and as they were removing her she was screaming and moaning about being assaulted, abused, police brutality etc. Then when some of the gardaí got back in their car they were joking about her dramatics and hyperbole. One said something like 'give me your name and address or I'll deport you' as a pisstake of what she had been saying, the next garda said IIRC like 'no, no give me your name or I'll rape ya!'.. just one upmanship on the joke and mocked the way the woman herself had over-reacted. Ah here it is..

http://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-claim-corrib-protesters-discussed-rape-prior-to-taped-remarks-188744-Jul2011/

AFAIK there is a video out there of the one protestor screaming... she's not safe with ye all that stuff... and that's what kicked off the joke.

Paco Rodriguez

The Guardai got Maynooth students to delete some content of the camera before handing it back to the girl.
That guard should have his pension seriously reduced but thats not going to happen. They are as crooked as the politicians.

themadchef

Are we doing this again?

Or do you have a link to this new story on it...

WindSock

I'm mad for the odd joke I am but the last people to be making jokes about rape are the guards.

Hah, apt sig from me

Doc Ruby

BattleCorp wrote: »

My own personal view was that it was a private conversation between colleagues and in fairness, the comment can clearly be seen to be a joke, and not a threat to the woman in question, so no, I don't think disciplinary action should be taken.

So eh why start a thread on it?

MrStuffins

prinz wrote: »

IIRC there was a video of the time the gardaí involved had cut this woman off a tractor I think it was and as they were removing her she was screaming and moaning about being assaulted, abused, police brutality etc. Then when some of the gardaí got back in their car they were joking about her dramatics and hyperbole. One said something like 'give me your name and address or I'll deport you' as a pisstake of what she had been saying, the next garda said IIRC like 'no, no give me your name or I'll rape ya!'.. just one upmanship on the joke and mocked the way the woman herself had over-reacted. Ah here it is..

http://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-claim-corrib-protesters-discussed-rape-prior-to-taped-remarks-188744-Jul2011/

Ah, I think I remember the incident actually! Thanks!

Difference Engine

MrStuffins wrote: »

prinz wrote: »

However before people get the wrong idea, the joke about 'rape' IIRC was because one of the women involved had made accusations against gardaí prior to that incidence...it wasn't a case that they just picked rape out of the blue to joke about.

Any details on this?

I mean, if the rape allegation had been upheld, then that makes it even worse taste!

If she'd been spoofing and it was a false allegation, then f*ck her!

IIRC a couple of protesters were on top of a truck or tractor to stop it moving. They refused to come down and the gardai removed them by force. As one was being taken down she started calling out "rape". I am open to correction on the details though.

It was more a case of a silly throwaway comment rather than a serious allegation against anyone.

Edit: prinz beat me to it, with a link and details and everything.

BattleCorp

Doc Ruby wrote: »

So eh why start a thread on it?

Just to get a few different opinions on it because me and the missus had different views on it.

I thought it was just a joke, end of story. She thought the cop should be disciplined (not fired though).

Sappa

You would hear worse from a bunch of female gardai on a Saturday night.

MrStuffins

Difference Engine wrote: »

IIRC a couple of protesters were on top of a truck or tractor to stop it moving. They refused to come down and the gardai removed them by force. As one was being taken down she started calling out "rape". I am open to correction on the details though.

It was more a case of a silly throwaway comment rather than a serious allegation against anyone.

If this was the case, then the "joke" in question here in fact isn't in bad taste at all. It's a direct reference to an ridiculous over reaction by some silly bint.

prinz

Paco Rodriguez wrote: »

The Guardai got Maynooth students to delete some content of the camera before handing it back to the girl. .

It went to Maynooth because it belonged to Maynooth...

According to the report, there was a difficulty in taking possession of the device in the days following the alleged conversation. First, it was held by a solicitor for Ms A and then it was taken back by Maynooth University, which owns the recorder. Forensic attempts were successful in retrieving deleted files from the device when it was eventually obtained by the GSOC on 14 April. However, some overwritten files could not be saved in a viewable format. On accessing the camera, the Ombudsman discovered that the files were deleted by academic staff at NUI Maynooth. One member of staff was interviewed as a result but it yielded “no information of significant evidential value”.

prinz

MrStuffins wrote: »

If this was the case, then the "joke" in question here in fact isn't in bad taste at all. It's a direct reference to an ridiculous over reaction by some silly bint.

Yep, here it is....

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rape-claims-were-hurled-at-gardai-by-protesters-2800104.html

Stiffler2

Why doesn't he just fine them €450 ?

humanji

Paco Rodriguez wrote: »

The Guardai got Maynooth students to delete some content of the camera before handing it back to the girl.
That guard should have his pension seriously reduced but thats not going to happen. They are as crooked as the politicians.

It wasn't the Gardai who got the footage deleted. It was the protestors who wanted to hide evidence, then published an edited version of the video on Indymedia. When the matter was brought to the publics attention, the gardai and the ombudsmand asked for the original tape, only to find huge sections of it missing.

sheesh

Probably needs some sort of diciplinary action as it is not the kind of behaviour expected of a guard. I feel sorry for the Sergant that probably was forced to resign.

I also feel the shell to sea crowd shot themselves in the foot by releasing the tape.

token101

So these Corrib Gas 'protestors' can torment Gardaí endlessly, but when they make a joke they need to be disciplined? Hopefully that means a 'documented meeting' and nothing more.

When are these people going to get the fact that no one cares about their protest and clear off back to doing whatever they used to do before this like the rest of the Dam Street **** and those mindless idiots who essentially vandalised a memorial outside Electric in Cork city? Are any of these people working? How do they get money? Do they get JSA? They're clearly not looking for work when they are out here protesting.

token101

Paco Rodriguez wrote: »

The Guardai got Maynooth students to delete some content of the camera before handing it back to the girl.
That guard should have his pension seriously reduced but thats not going to happen. They are as crooked as the politicians.

That's a lie. These 'protestors' handed a hugely edited tape back to the Gardaí when asked for the unedited version.

And FFS if you're going to criticise something at least learn to spell what you're criticising. It's Gardaí! Crooked politicians, crooked Gardaí, coming from someone who just levelled a false allegation at the Gardaí. Bit of irony there eh?

Paparazzo

humanji wrote: »

It wasn't the Gardai who got the footage deleted. It was the protestors who wanted to hide evidence, then published an edited version of the video on Indymedia. When the matter was brought to the publics attention, the gardai and the ombudsmand asked for the original tape, only to find huge sections of it missing.

You're not suggesting that Indymedia or Shell To Sea edit videos to show Gardai in a bad light! :eek:

Paparazzo

If the Garda who made the joke about rape in the car is disiplined, the female protesters who shout "rape" as soon as a male garda touches them should be charged.

micropig

.Edited video or not, what on earth are the Gardai doing joking about raping a citizen? would it have been funnier if the citizen was a child?

It shows some members contempt for the public. The only things the Gardai involved in this are sorry for, is that their real feelings got in to the public domain.

It wasn't me!

micropig wrote: »

.Edited video or not, what on earth are the Gardai doing joking about raping a citizen?

It show some members contempt for the public. The only things the Gardai involved in this are sorry for, is that their real feelings in the public domain.

To be fair, when the joke sprung from an incident where a woman cried rape as soon as the Gardai touched her, contempt is appropriate.

They're hardly going to get back in the car going "Jaysus, sure wasn't she terrible rational? Nothing but respect for that woman."

itac

RE: the footage being deleted....media colleges tend to have cameras going out with students every day, or every second day-there's a very high turnover.

If the footage was on a tape or card, it would have been uploaded onto a computer/drive at the college, edited and then the original footage either kept by the student if they wanted it, or deleted by the college in order to keep space free on the computers.

The tape from which the original footage was taken could've been lost, it could have snapped, it could have been given to someone else to re-record onto for their work-there's nothing sinister/unusual about this. It could easily have been a case of the tape was uploaded, the students didn't review the footage for a day, in which case, the tape could easily have been overwritten by the next person to take/use the camera.

If they (the people involved) chose to go ahead with giving an edited version and claiming it was unedited, that's a whole different story!

Julia London

I listened to the tape last night on Vincent Browne and maybe im an asshole but it made me laugh. It was a joke between colleauges pure and simple. A very bad taste one but it doesnt make these men rapists waiting in the wings. Ireland is become too PC on issues like this

micropig

It wasn't me! wrote: »

To be fair, when the joke sprung from an incident where a woman cried rape as soon as the Gardai touched her, contempt is appropriate.

They're hardly going to get back in the car going "Jaysus, sure wasn't she terrible rational? Nothing but respect for that woman."

No, but surely they're trained to deal professionally with their situation? If a woman is shouting rape, when there is obviously no rape going on,..is the training get to schoolyard level and trade insults?

itac

micropig wrote: »

No, but surely they're trained to deal professionally with their situation? If a woman is shouting rape, when there is obviously no rape going on,..is the training get to schoolyard level and trade insults?

But they didn't trade insults with her during her rape claim, they made it as a private joke afterwards. How many of us have been nice as pie when serving/working with someone who's making some outlandish claim, and then turned around afterward and said "what an eejit!"

I once had a woman claim her husband would die unless I gave her a table in the restaurant immediately. I politely told her several times she'd have to wait, she told me he'd die, it would be my fault, I'd need to get an ambulance on standby etc, and then finally she left. I smiled politely everytime she repeated it, and reiterated that she'd have to wait, but after she left, my staff will tell you, I spent the night saying things like-I have to bring this wine to table 5, or they'll die! I'll have to wipe that table, or they'll die!


Was it an off colour joke-yes. Was it unprofessional, yes. But again, how many of us have never said something to someone else in private that we'd never say to someone's face?!

AudreyHepburn

The reaction to this whole thing is laughable in my opinion. I’ll accept that the joke may have been in more taste but it arose because one of the women involved cried rape before the Gardai have even touched her. I believe, from what I’ve read, that she intimated that if she went with them they’d rape her. I can’t blame the Gardai at all for their contempt or for seeing what she said as a joke.

They were not imo joking about rape itself but at the idea that this woman seemed to believe she was going to be raped by them. I certainly don’t think they deserve a reprimand for a private joke made when well out of earshot of the women. One which the women only discovered later and which they only reported after deleting other footage from the camera.

Anyone with half a brain cell can see how ridiculous this whole situation is and how unnecessary all this over PC-ness has become.

It wasn't me!

micropig wrote: »

No, but surely they're trained to deal professionally with their situation? If a woman is shouting rape, when there is obviously no rape going on,..is the training get to schoolyard level and trade insults?

They did deal professionally with it. They didn't threaten to rape her. They never said anything of the sort to her. They made a sarky joke afterwards, which is an absolutely normal response. If it had been me and she started shouting rape, I'd have wanted to give her a good smack for trivialising the subject and I can imagine they weren't too impressed with her either. Her behaviour is far worse than theirs was. Professionalism isn't about never voicing your reactions, but about doing it in private, and not to the tard's face.

Paparazzo

Take a look at the crys of retail thread. Imagine dealing with a complete abuseive customer all day, accusing you of rape, filming everything you do and editing it so it makes you look bad and generally making your life hell. Now, you get 5 minutes break with your workmates. Of course you're going to make some sort of joke about it.

All this proves is garda are human.

Marquis de carabas

I think its been pointed out enough times that the Guards involved here were not making light of rape but responding to an incident they dealt with so I won't go into that.

For those though that believe Guards should never joke about these things I'd say a bit of perspective is in order.

If you dealt with serious assaults, rape, road traffic deaths, murder etc would you sit around afterwards thinking how terrible it is. How terrible the world is that these things happen. How long do you think it would take before such a person would have a mental breakdown?

Anyone who works in any stressful job should understand. When a boss is a bully and tyrant who survives better, the guy who sits at home worrying about him or the guy who makes fun of him out in the pub?

Professionalism has nothing to do with how people feel its about how they they act. The sergeant involved has been commended for his dedication and understanding in a number of rape cases. That's what he should be judged on.

MagicSean

Difference Engine wrote: »

IIRC a couple of protesters were on top of a truck or tractor to stop it moving. They refused to come down and the gardai removed them by force. As one was being taken down she started calling out "rape". I am open to correction on the details though.

It was more a case of a silly throwaway comment rather than a serious allegation against anyone.

Edit: prinz beat me to it, with a link and details and everything.

The first video shows protestors being removed from a tractor and one of them shouts rape. The "rape tape" shows one of the arrested women making allegations about the Gardaí. "She's been assaulted. She's not safe with that man."

BattleCorp

The Gardai have a sh1te job to do. It's a stressful job that I wouldn't fancy doing. They get it from all sides. Just because one of them makes a crappy joke, it isn't really a disciplinary matter apart from a "try not to make jokes like that again" talk with his superior.

If the authorities decide it is very serious and discipline the Garda, then they should discipline the woman who shouted "rape" when the Gardai were trying to arrest her.

This country is too fcuking PC.

Dangerous Man

The Guard did nothing wrong. He was having a private conversation - even if it was during the course of his duty it was still private, not intended for anybody else. Not only that, but the joke was funny. Give that man a promotion.

44leto

He should be thrown out of the force.

While a woman was locked in the back of a garda car he a powerful police official talks about raping a prisoner. Yeah, it was a joke, who jokes like that and in a Garda uniform the humour would somehow be lost.

It wasn't me!

44leto wrote: »

He should be thrown out of the force.

While a woman was locked in the back of a garda car he a powerful police official talks about raping a prisoner. Yeah, it was a joke, who jokes like that and in a Garda uniform the humour would somehow be lost.

Jesus, that's some emotive language there. She's not Princess Peach and he's not Bowser. Your characterisation of him as a "powerful" Garda is more than a little weird.

The Waltzing Consumer

44leto wrote: »

He should be thrown out of the force.

While a woman was locked in the back of a garda car he a powerful police official talks about raping a prisoner. Yeah, it was a joke, who jokes like that and in a Garda uniform the humour would somehow be lost.

Can you not read the whole thread before you say something so completely naive and incorrect?

Pretty much all posters have pointed out the context of this "joke" was based on allegations of rape towards gardai who did nothing at all to this woman at the time. The two women were escorted off a tractor as softly as possible with cameras and female gardai in attendance and the woman alleged rape!!!

If the Gardai get thrown out of the force for their reaction, she should be thrown in jail for false allegations.

Oh, it also does not help that the Guard has retired since :rolleyes:

Seriously, why can't you read?

HeidiHeidi

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Jesus, that's some emotive language there. She's not Princess Peach and he's not Bowser. Your characterisation of him as a "powerful" Garda is more than a little weird.

And apart from anything else, she wasn't in the car with him.

3rdDegree

Crazy that anyone should be disciplined for saying something in a private conversation. I think everyone here has made tasteless jokes among friends that they would never make in general public. Lot of hypocrisy around this. How would you feel if you made an offensive joke at your desk only to be disciplined by your employees because some one had hidden a microphone or camera there?

This is very, very dangerous ground we are now starting to walk...

Sasa1424

Julia London wrote: »

I listened to the tape last night on Vincent Browne and maybe im an asshole but it made me laugh. It was a joke between colleauges pure and simple. A very bad taste one but it doesnt make these men rapists waiting in the wings. Ireland is become too PC on issues like this

3rdDegree wrote: »

Crazy that anyone should be disciplined for saying something in a private conversation. I think everyone here has made tasteless jokes among friends that they would never make in general public. Lot of hypocrisy around this. How would you feel if you made an offensive joke at your desk only to be disciplined by your employees because some one had hidden a microphone or camera there?

This is very, very dangerous ground we are now starting to walk...

Okay it was supposed to be a ‘private joke’. And okay the remarks were not intended to actually intimidate the female protestors involved. And the female protestors themselves may have been unscrupulous in making the accusations of rape in the first place.

But when the remarks became as public as they did, what’s at stake in this debate went far beyond the above contextual justifications of the now infamous remarks.

If the sergeant in question (conveniently retired) isn’t publicly criticized/reprimanded for his remarks, doesn’t this indirectly sanction that it’s acceptable for our ‘Guards of the Peace’ to not treat the rape of females with the respect that such a trauma and infringement of human rights deserves?

And if it’s deemed okay for uniformed Gardai, then isn’t that communicating that it’s okay for all citizens to talk flippantly about rape? As a female Irish citizen, I feel deeply unsettled and threatened by this apparently widespread response.

To re-iterate, given that this issue is now as public as it is, can we really just shrug our shoulders and dismiss the remarks as ‘only joking’ and think that it doesn’t have implications for the balance of power relations between men and women in modern Irish society? And for the status of women in Irish society?

My instinct tells me not.

It wasn't me!

I think it would be much more useful to look at the lack of respect the woman in this instance showed for her fellow women by initiating the whole sequence of events with her rape cries.

Sasa1424

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I think it would be much more useful to look at the lack of respect the woman in this instance showed for her fellow women by initiating the whole sequence of events with her rape cries.

I agree with you that the accusations of rape made by the female protesters (pre-infamous remarks) were irresponsible and detrimental to the case I’m making for appropriate discourse around the issue of the rape.

But my main argument was that the remarks made by the sergeant etc. are now in the public domain and as such have taken on a life of their own BEYOND the actual context in which they occurred. And given this level of publicity, the general consensus that such comments are an acceptable brand of humour makes me feel threatened and more uneasy as a woman in my own country.

How can the Irish public deem it acceptable for a group of (uniformed) men to talk flippantly about using their physical strength to brutally intimidate and control women? Doesn't this now make it slightly more acceptable for more people to talk and think in this way?

By not acknowledging the damaging legacy of these remarks, I feel the system and that damned report (not to mention public opinion) has failed Irish women.