Have I got substance?

Guill

(Not an athiest thread)

My wife asked me the other day "Have you got no substance"? In an acusational tone which kinda threw me.

Background:
I am an Athiest with no desire to find a meaning of life. I believe we are here through a random chain of events and that is it for me. She is an 'a la carte' Christian which is also fine by me, I don't force my opinions on anyone, I actually never talk about them unless pushed and then I will give an honest opinion. I attend weddings, funerals, Christenings, annversary masses, etc. but do not do the lip service thing (this annoyed her at the start but not so much now, I think) I sit though the ceremony and if it is a ceremony for someone I knew I will usually sit and remember them in my head and smile.


The other day we were sitting on the couch watching something on TG4 (subtitles) and the national anthem came on. I remarked how I never learned the national anthem. She looked at me shocked, I told her about how they tried to force it on us in national scholl and I never bothered to learn it as I did not see the point, I played C64 instead.

That's when it happened, she looked at me and said ""Have you got no substance"?

Confused I said what do you mean?

She commented on how I don't believe in God and now have no national pride. Did I believe in anything!! ()

I started to answer about how I believed in nature/nuture, love, and family not a God that personifies these things about how I believed everyone has a responsibilty to act morally throughout their lives. These as I told her are morals I would have learned being raised as a catholic.

As regards singing songs to a landmass that has had a border drawn on it? Being raised watchin the troubles on TV everynight ruled that nonsense out for me. I like living in Ireland, I sing Irish songs old and new, I love the sights and sounds and people on the island, this means more to me than any one song.

We left the conversation at that but over the last couple of days it has been niggling at me...

I had never thought about what a measure of a person substance is (or what it is) but now that I do, I wonder.

Am I 'hollow' In the eyes of most?
Does not having a faith and not feeling a sense of duty to a landmass make me somehow different?

Thanks in advance AH.;)

grindle

Guill wrote: »

Am I 'hollow' In the eyes of most?
Does not having a faith and not feeling a sense of duty to a landmass make me somehow different?

Thanks in advance AH.;)

You are hollow in the eyes of "most", but "most" have it wrong, so screw them. You've shown signs of rationale and skepticism, they haven't, you win.

MrStuffins

Oh, one of those people who gets pissed off because you don't know the National Anthem?

What you do now is, learn it in English! And sing it at every opportunity you get!

If there's one thing that pisses these people off more than you not knowing the National Anthem it's not knowing it in Irish, but knowing it in English!

Miike

Age, location and background play massive factors here from my experience with people. I wouldn't call you hollow, religion and 'pride' are something you practice or you don't and commonly, the masses DON'T practice these at the current day or age and given a standard of maturity. However this is just my opinion and how I've analysed it over a period of time.

~ Alternatively just go with learning the national anthem in English and lecture about your beliefs.

Guill

Miike wrote: »

Age, location and background play massive factors here from my experience with people. I wouldn't call you hollow, religion and 'pride' are something you practice or you don't and commonly, the masses DON'T practice these at the current day or age and given a standard of maturity. However this is just my opinion and how I've analysed it over a period of time.

~ Alternatively just go with learning the national anthem in English and lecture about your beliefs.

You may have a point, I have been ageing quite a lot lately.

Miike

Guill wrote: »

You may have a point, I have been ageing quiet a lot lately.

Thats your lack of pride and substance doing that to you!

Adyx

Why does life have to have a meaning to it? This "what's the meaning of life" crap is bullshit. It's not even about religion, let alone national pride. Having religion might help you come to terms with your own existance but it certainly doesn't explain your existence. :mad:

Similarly, I don't believe in being proud of something you have no control over or did nothing to help achieve. Being born Irish is nothing to be proud of, nor is being born American, English or Iranian. Nor is being proud you're gay, straight or bisexual. These are not things you should be ashamed of either though, they're perfectly natural. I'm not "proud" I'm straight, why are people "proud" they're gay?

MrStuffins

Adyx wrote: »

I'm not "proud" I'm straight, why are people "proud" they're gay?

Because you're the majority and that makes it different apparently!

Man 1: "I'm proud to be black"

-"That is awesome sir!"

Man 2: "I am proud to be white"

-"RACIST!!! GET HIM!! GEEEEEETTTTT HIIIIIIIIMMMMMM!!!!!"

Adyx

Ahhhh yes, another great example. I could never be a white supremacist, what's to be proud of just because you're born white and being black, "yellow", purple polka-dotted is nothing to be proud of either.

Back OT: OP; race, gender, sexuality are all characteristics beyond your control and therefore cannot be something you are proud of or ashamed of. It sounds cheesy but the true measure of a person is through their actions and attitudes in my (admittedly drunken :pac: ) opinion.

Guill

But i suppose that also depends on the person taking the measurement.

Adyx

Guill wrote: »

But i suppose that also depends on the person taking the measurement.

I don't believe so, unless you mean yourself. The only standards I fail to live up to are my own. That's easy for me to say without any serious commitments to worry about. But as far as I'm concerned, everyone else's opinion is secondary to mine.

Bottom line: If you think you're a good person living your life as well as you can or should be, or even if you're trying, you have substance. Although I don't particularly like that term.





Alcohol makes me even more introspective than usual..... Thanks OP.

forfuxsake

I'm proud to be Irish, white and heterosexual.

I have worked very hard on these things and deserve some fúcking recognition for my achievements.

Lando Griffin

Are you, well you know the year thats in it and all.......

Jesus?

holystungun9

If you don't stand up for something you will fall for anything.

Mr Benevolent

Wait, your wife said that? Sounds like something a mother would say.

starbelgrade

Throughout history, religion & nationalism have often gone hand in hand.

Both are usually supported by the same type of people - the type of people who believe that the wearing of crosses, the waving of flags & the fundamental belief in a "greater power" or "greater good" will give a certain meaning to their lives and without these things, they feel unfulfilled.

In essence, they need the crutches of religion and country to support them and they need the comfort that the unity of belonging to the majority brings to them.

That's all well and good - whatever gets you through the day, but to suggest that those who do not share these values lack substance is ludicrous. It takes a lot more substance to live a life of high moral values without the need for the dual crutches of religion & country.

Doc Ruby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L2qP-xQ_7o

antodeco

Hang on. This was you wife? I'm getting married in January.

Bollox

Doc Ruby

starbelgrade wrote: »

Throughout history, religion & nationalism have often gone hand in hand.

Er no they haven't. That whole persecution of Catholics thing is a good example. The nazis are another. In many cases religion was seen as a threat to nationalism.

starbelgrade wrote: »

Both are usually supported by the same type of people - the type of people who believe that the wearing of crosses, the waving of flags & the fundamental belief in a "greater power" or "greater good" will give a certain meaning to their lives and without these things, they feel unfulfilled.

National identity is usually only the target of disdain by those who either a) want their national identity to take over or b) some sort of world without borders nuts who think that if we just remove all border controls everyone will burst out in rainbows singing kumbaya.

starbelgrade

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Er no they haven't. That whole persecution of Catholics thing is a good example. The nazis are another. In many cases religion was seen as a threat to nationalism.

I never said that nationalism & religion have always gone hand in hand - but that they have often gone hand in hand. There is a difference.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

National identity is usually only the target of disdain by those who either a) want their national identity to take over or b) some sort of world without borders nuts who think that if we just remove all border controls everyone will burst out in rainbows singing kumbaya.

And there is also a difference between national identity, protection of borders and nationalism. Many people like to identify them as part of the same ideology, but that's a totally disengenous argument.

Doc Ruby

starbelgrade wrote: »

I never said that nationalism & religion have always gone hand in hand - but that they have often gone hand in hand. There is a difference.

Really what you're struggling towards is that both nationalism and religion are forces which can be abused by evil people. The vast, vast majority of the human race claims religion of some sort or another. The vast, vast majority of those aren't going around burning witches and spitting in the eye of science.

For religion to become a problem, like nationalism, there either has to be a few screws loose in the first place or a charismatic nasty needs to know how to pull the strings - and there are plenty of other strings they can pull too. In and of themselves religion and nationalism are just forces.

But by all means carry on with the atheist echo chambers, pouring scorn on people's beliefs, and then being shocked when the census doesn't show that the world has changed its mind to suit your own undeniable and infallible beliefs.

starbelgrade wrote: »

And there is also a difference between national identity, protection of borders and nationalism.

Ah all these lovely people who having "seen the troubles" now want nothing to do with identifying themselves as proud members of their own culture. I wonder how they would feel if they had watched English soldiers shooting randomly into the crowd at a sporting event in the 1920s on their TVs.

foxyboxer

Surely one would have these kind of conversations before getting married?

foxyboxer

If you taught a Parrot the national anthem, would it make it more Irish than an Irish citizen who just doesn't care?

Eve_Dublin

My boyfriend told me he believed in fairies last night. If this is "having substance", then I wish he was as shallow as a dried up puddle.

Ghost Buster

Perhaps you are Bruce Willis' character in The Sixth Sense and you wife has just figured out the twist and realises you have no corporeal form.

Or just a case of good old Irish "Arrah sure you have to believe in something"

Forest Demon

When she said substance was she talking about girth?

starbelgrade

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Really what you're struggling towards is that both nationalism and religion are forces which can be abused by evil people. The vast, vast majority of the human race claims religion of some sort or another. The vast, vast majority of those aren't going around burning witches and spitting in the eye of science.

For religion to become a problem, like nationalism, there either has to be a few screws loose in the first place or a charismatic nasty needs to know how to pull the strings - and there are plenty of other strings they can pull too. In and of themselves religion and nationalism are just forces.

But by all means carry on with the atheist echo chambers, pouring scorn on people's beliefs, and then being shocked when the census doesn't show that the world has changed its mind to suit your own undeniable and infallible beliefs.


Ah all these lovely people who having "seen the troubles" now want nothing to do with identifying themselves as proud members of their own culture. I wonder how they would feel if they had watched English soldiers shooting randomly into the crowd at a sporting event in the 1920s on their TVs.

You're jumping to wild conclusions here. So here's a few facts to put you straight;

1. I'm not an atheist.

2. I have not, nor would ever "pour scorn" on people's beliefs.

3. I understand that all forces can be abused by evil people. It's not a concept I am "struggling towards" as I am far from stupid.

4. My point was, and still is, that people who have leanings towards religion and nationalism often have those tendencies for the same reasons.

The last point is one which you appear to be struggling with - so poorly in fact, that you are willing to draw wild conclusions from it that I neither made, nor intended to make.

So before you go spouting off any more shite, at least take the time to consider what I actually said, rather than attribute your own take on things that you clearly made up to just suit your own argument.

Forest Demon

A belief in reality is the best sort of substance. Its easy to be a sheep and run with the flock without questioning the real substance of things.

The world is an even more beautiful and amazing place if you look at what humans have achieved in the way of art, considering that we are just slightly clever apes. If a dog painted the Mona Lisa then it would be even more amazing. It would deffo win BGT.

I don't believe in God

I don't even believe in putting career before family

I don't believe in RTE (special mention)

I have no faith in Irish institutions to deliver value for tax payers money.

I have no faith in any of the current Irish political party's to bring about the changes required to Irish institutions.

I never believed in Ahern or FF.

I don't believe that humans have any more significance then any other creatures on this planet. I also believe that we have a massively disproportionate effect on the planet.

I don't believe in pure capitalism and I feel some areas should be ring fenced from this. A home, healthcare, education, nutrition and security being the main areas where everyone should have equal access regardless of their means.

I don't think that the open boarder policy of the EU is a good idea for Ireland.

There is great substance in not believing.

Captain Darling

She was asking you 'have you any drugs?' after listening to you sh1tting on about the meaning of life and all that.

She obviously thought you were off your head on something...

humbert

Your wife has a depressingly warped idea of substance. I'm powerfully tempted to suggest that she might be a bit of a thicky, and so I will.

Beruthiel

Guill wrote: »

My wife asked me the other day "Have you got no substance"?

Is she one of those Russian brides who you ordered off the net and married because she looked hot in her pic?

I assume this to be the case, as a woman who has spent enough time with you to make the decision that you are marriage material, would already know if you had this magic 'substance' or not.

Doc Ruby

starbelgrade wrote: »

2. I have not, nor would ever "pour scorn" on people's beliefs.

Great, so "will give a certain meaning to their lives and without these things, they feel unfulfilled. In essence, they need the crutches of religion and country" isn't scornful to you? Because the only people that need crutches are the lame and the crippled.

starbelgrade wrote: »

4. My point was, and still is, that people who have leanings towards religion and nationalism often have those tendencies for the same reasons.

Because they're mentally lame and crippled? By your own words.

44leto

If automatic doors don't open for you, then I am afraid you have no soul.

Dravokivich

Guill wrote: »

Am I 'hollow' In the eyes of most?
Does not having a faith and not feeling a sense of duty to a landmass make me somehow different?

I'd say no, but what would I know?

I'm just some fella who doesn't acknowledge a God or lack there of. Who doesn't feel a need to measure my worth/goodliness against anothers perception of it, for whatever reason be it following a religious faith, a sense of nationalist pride or grammer nazis.

I believe in morals and doing good by others who I personally care for as much as I can, not for a reward or recognition either. Just for the act itself. I don't like contempt, selfishness, friction or any other negative charactiristics that can be aligned with them such as general scumbag behaviour because I see it as bullshít. Not beause it's wrong, but because it's very nature is destructive and as a result there is nothing constructive with it.

You don't need to be affiliated with anything to consider yourself a good person. But I also honestly don't see the harm in affiliating yourself with a group of like minded individuals who share the same set of moral intentions. What I don't like is when there are people who affiliate themselves think their collective is the only source/method to express and promote such morals and seek to defame those outside of it. This can be said for anyone who agressively promotes their affiliation, be it any form of christian, jew, islamic, athiest or anyone else...

Feel what you feel for you. Anyone else agrees to it, fair dues. I'd be more than appy if we can all promote the idea instead of argue any institutional shíte behind it... because that's not very constructive like...

44leto

I relate to the OP, I am a total fundamentalist atheist, not because of any rational reason, just because I can be, I am just that way. Its one thing the evangelistic atheist don't understand religion and spirituality is genetic. It is a stronger force in some people then others.

I have no spirituality, I have no strong feeling of things larger then me, no God, no country, no sports team. I believe in random events and I am a random event who will die and that will be the end of the world, forever, as in when I die it is the end of the world.

I do love art poetry literature and beauty but that is a private thing. I have strong feelings of empathy and pity but that is a natural moral thing as determined by the culture and society I live in.

So I have "no substance" either but I am happy about that, I think it is a good way to be, its definitely more rational.

kylith

starbelgrade wrote: »

Throughout history, religion & nationalism have often gone hand in hand.

Both are usually supported by the same type of people - the type of people who believe that the wearing of crosses, the waving of flags & the fundamental belief in a "greater power" or "greater good" will give a certain meaning to their lives and without these things, they feel unfulfilled.

In essence, they need the crutches of religion and country to support them and they need the comfort that the unity of belonging to the majority brings to them.

That's all well and good - whatever gets you through the day, but to suggest that those who do not share these values lack substance is ludicrous. It takes a lot more substance to live a life of high moral values without the need for the dual crutches of religion & country.

Very true. Being true to yourself and your own beliefs, of lack thereof, shows much more 'substance' than blindly going along with herd mentality and mouthing words you don't really believe in. The OP's wife sounds like a right chore, tbh.

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

My boyfriend told me he believed in fairies last night. If this is "having substance", then I wish he was as shallow as a dried up puddle.

Seriously? You're a more tolerant woman than I, I'd have had him out on his ear for that. I can't abide such nonsense.

FTGFOP

Forest Demon wrote: »

I don't believe that humans have any more significance then any other creatures on this planet.

Typical forest demon rhetoric!

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

My boyfriend told me he believed in fairies last night. If this is "having substance", then I wish he was as shallow as a dried up puddle.

Did he say anymore than that he believed in them? What were his reasons?

Agricola

starbelgrade wrote: »

Throughout history, religion & nationalism have often gone hand in hand.

Both are usually supported by the same type of people - the type of people who believe that the wearing of crosses, the waving of flags & the fundamental belief in a "greater power" or "greater good" will give a certain meaning to their lives and without these things, they feel unfulfilled.

In essence, they need the crutches of religion and country to support them and they need the comfort that the unity of belonging to the majority brings to them.

That's all well and good - whatever gets you through the day, but to suggest that those who do not share these values lack substance is ludicrous. It takes a lot more substance to live a life of high moral values without the need for the dual crutches of religion & country.

Exactly and traditionally religion and nationalism have been a control mechanism also, used by a powerful elite in order to get the people to do their bidding. Whether that be bishops sermonising on private marital issues, or monarchs conscripting people into armies to "fight for king and country"

Its all a masterful con job and if people just stopped and thought about it rationally for a second, they'd see that. But we are all indoctrinated with it from birth and since the majority of us just go with the flow, don't question it and simply want to belong, its goes on an on ad infinitum.

starbelgrade

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Great, so "will give a certain meaning to their lives and without these things, they feel unfulfilled. In essence, they need the crutches of religion and country" isn't scornful to you? Because the only people that need crutches are the lame and the crippled.


Because they're mentally lame and crippled? By your own words.

By my own words, my hole. I never said that anyone was mentally lame or crippled.

If you have to keep makinge up shit to fight your corner, then you've lost the argument dude.

Guill

foxyboxer wrote: »

Surely one would have these kind of conversations before getting married?

No need for discussion we were together for 11 years before that. She knew I was athiest, she did not know about me not knowing the anthem, not reallly something that came up in conversation much for some reason.

When she said substance was she talking about girth?

I have plenty of that!

She was asking you 'have you any drugs?' after listening to you sh1tting on about the meaning of life and all that.

She obviously thought you were off your head on something...

Nah, quit that a long time back.

Your wife has a depressingly warped idea of substance..

That's what threw me.