Renault's Shocking E.V Offer!!!

Sesshoumaru

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think it makes sense for VW to prep the next Golf as an EV, as there are a number of reasons they may want to have an EV in the range:

1) Politicians might incentivize EVs through Congestion charges, tax breaks etc, and make an EV with current tech saleable, the way the Prius became a best-seller in Japan.

2) The public might suddenly feel an irrational love for EVs, they way they did for things-that-look-a-bit-like-a-jeep, and then all makers will have to sell them, like Bentley and Porsche making SUVs (never happened for hybrids, though).

3) They may need to make and sell small numbers at a loss, just to make sure they are mentioned in stories about EVs, for the day they become a reality.

4) The Magical R&D Fairy might wave her wand and allow a battery 10 times denser than anything made today which costs a tenth as much to make within the model life of the next Golf, which would make EVs a serious sales proposition.

1) Politicians already have and guys like this

4) We have a poster on Boards who built his EV. He can buy a 24kw/h battery pack (same as the Leaf) for 7,500 euro delivered. Prices are already dropping and we have verified breakthroughs from companies like Envia which are already in testing.

Sesshoumaru

unkel wrote: »

New technology?



Meet the worlds first hybrid vehicle, a Porsche. In 1899



Ferdinand Porsche was only 18 when he designed it

Electric wheel hub motors as well, sweet Amazingly we are going back to this design to further reduce the weight of EV's by removing most of requirements for a powertrain.

Matt Simis

Matt Simis wrote: »

Your enthusiasm for EV is like beer goggles. "The Germans" are amongst the most profitable and advanced car manufacturers in the world. Key word being profitable, there is no money rushing to market on EVs (or pretty much anything for that matter). You really think Renault planned this suspiciously generous promotion? Its a requirement as the cost concious public has not bought into EVs yet. Much like the Germans said. This is an example of a commercial problem, not a commercial success, this much should be obvious to anyone.

The role the Chinese play in manufacturing anything is always the same, replication via mass volume, low quality and low price. Dont expect them to actually lead anything. A player for sure, but not leaders/designers.

The Germans are behind in E.V development I didn't say as a profitable business, and it's because of the Chinese that Audi are having record profits.

Business is changing in China and not all things made in China is rubbish, think Apple. My electric bike motors come from China and are pretty damn good, so does the electrics and batteries and my house hasn't blown up yet nor I.

The Chinese have taken over in manufacturing and will continue to do so they can mass produce, doesn't mean rubbish. If you want the cheapest then look out but if not and you know what you are looking for then you can get just as good a quality product as that made in the west.

If I was to get a e.u or u.s made battery for my bike it would cost twice what it does from China and maybe more and for what ?

Nissan doctor

I've only skimmed the thread so sorry if I repeat any points.

The public's apprehension about EV's may not just be because its a new technology.

If EV are to become the short/medium term future, then I do think it would be very wise for the likes of VW to get a move on. Their perceived quality and marketing ability would change many peoples minds about buying an EV.

People will assume that because its VW then it will be good, where as people, currently, may be of the impression that, since Renault couldn't even make a electric window work reliably in the last generation of cars, a full electric car from them may be quite a gamble, regardless of how fact based this opinion may be.

Remember, for most Irish buyers especially, its brand and marketing that sells cars, not actual quality or ability.

MuppetCheck

MuppetCheck wrote: »

While they will be absolutely ideal for the majority of this countries population, you are limiting your lifestyle considerably until items like range are more bearable.

I think most people will find e.v's they meet their needs and will charge at home, and realise that the extra money they have in their pocket will not be a limitation to their lifestyle but improve it considerably. They will have the ability to spent the extra money they would have on petrol and diesel on whatever they chose.

Matt Simis

Deleted User wrote: »

Indeed you could but it would cost far more to run than an e.v. + if you install solar+wind you will have no emissions at all !

I dont care if I had no or low emissions. You are way off on the pricing though, my Audi S8 plus LPG is way way cheaper to buy and therefore total cost of ownership much much lower.

Sesshoumaru

Matt Simis wrote: »

I dont care if I had no or low emissions. You are way off on the pricing though, my Audi S8 plus LPG is way way cheaper to buy and therefore total cost of ownership much much lower.

The S8 is 129,740 euro on the www.audi.ie website. I already know you're probably talking about secondhand.

Nissan doctor

Nissan doctor wrote: »

I've only skimmed the thread so sorry if I repeat any points.

The public's apprehension about EV's may not just be because its a new technology.

If EV are to become the short/medium term future, then I do think it would be very wise for the likes of VW to get a move on. Their perceived quality and marketing ability would change many peoples minds about buying an EV.

People will assume that because its VW then it will be good, where as people, currently, may be of the impression that, since Renault couldn't even make a electric window work reliably in the last generation of cars, a full electric car from them may be quite a gamble, regardless of how fact based this opinion may be.

Remember, for most Irish buyers especially, its brand and marketing that sells cars, not actual quality or ability.

I'm afraid not the current e.v design by V.W, the renault zoe will have much faster charging and have more range.

You will always have people who want the badge and the new reg and nothing else matters.

Matt Simis

Matt Simis wrote: »

I dont care if I had no or low emissions. You are way off on the pricing though, my Audi S8 plus LPG is way way cheaper to buy and therefore total cost of ownership much much lower.

We are not talking 2nd hand here, we all know buying a 2k car is far cheaper than an e.v, for now!

galwaytt

unkel wrote: »

New technology?



Meet the worlds first hybrid vehicle, a Porsche. In 1899



Ferdinand Porsche was only 18 when he designed it

Indeed, here's the one - prepared much, much earlier.........:D. :

RoverZT

Deleted User wrote: »

I think most people will find e.v's they meet their needs and will charge at home, and realise that the extra money they have in their pocket will not be a limitation to their lifestyle but improve it considerably. They will have the ability to spent the extra money they would have on petrol and diesel on whatever they chose.

If your watching the pennies you don't buy a new car:D

Very few people have 20k+ to buy a new car.

There are about 5 new cars in the car park of my workplace.

Your losing money buy a buying a new car, simple as that.

No one likes to lose money now.

Buying a new car is losing money.

Mindsets are changing, no one wants a loan of any sort now and most are buying with cash and using the old rule of 20% yearly salary.

35k salary you can afford a 7k car.

350k salary you can afford a 70k car.

You save money buying a 01 1k 1.3 Mitsubishi Lancer not a brand new car.

ZOE is dog slow as well.

84mph top speed, that's barely over the motorway limit of 75mph:D

On a windy day like today would it even make it?

Will you go and try for the crack?

My current car will hit that in 3rd, with 3 more gears left

Nissan doctor

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm afraid not the current e.v design by V.W, the renault zoe will have much faster charging and have more range.

You will always have people who want the badge and the new reg and nothing else matters.

I was talking purely from a marketing and sales point of view. If VW marketed an EV in Ireland, I could almost guarantee 100% that it would sell better then a Renault, even if it was priced more and had less ability.

Joe 90

RoverJames wrote: »

that seems strange, you'd imagine they knew the characteristics and long term effects of fast charging on battery life pre commercial launch.

I would say that no matter how hard you try to test for everything in testing, the real world will throw up something different. No matter what the field.

langdang

Nissan doctor wrote: »

I was talking purely from a marketing and sales point of view. If VW marketed an EV in Ireland, I could almost guarantee 100% that it would sell better then a Renault, even if it was priced more and had less ability.

And it would be regarded as "stylish and elegant" here, even if it looked like a turd.
It would be regarded as "fierce reliable" if you only had to replace 50% of it within the first 5years

RoverZT

Deleted User wrote: »

You are indeed correct, but If I can install a better battery and tweak the internal controller to disable the top speed cap and increase torque by 300lbs I'll be more than happy! Even if it means installing a new controller I'd happily do it.

A water cooled car motor should easily take massive amounts of peak power!

Anyone that thinks remapping a diesel gives good power, they have seen NOTHING yet!

Just think of all the mods you got to do to a car to improve it's stock power ?

What about insurance?

You can't just go and disable top speed, add 300lb/ft torque, 200bhp.

Insurance companies here don't like mods.

You will have to get an engineers report to get insurance.

What about the gearbox?

Wouldn't you need a new one for the extra torque?

You will need uprated brakes, chassis wouldn't have been designed to take extra power, other components the same, list goes on and on.

Joe 90

RoverZT wrote: »

Can you even buy a Tesla S Roadster here.

It's a class machine

With torque at 0 rpm, it pulls like a train from nothing.

Saw a review on youtube and from 80-120km/h it had almost supercar acceleration.

80 to 120 in 2.4 secs.

A Ford Focus RS with 305bhp takes 3.3 secs

I want the performance side of E.V to become more relevant.

In theory they can be seriously quick in a straight line and I want to see the big manufacturers bring mainstream performance cars.

An E.V Clio RS with twice the battery power of a Leaf something like 50 kwh would be incredible fun to drive and very quick.

If the cost of batteries dropped to 150 euro per kwh it could happen.

Well, 80-120km/h is 50-75mph-ish. (I tend to think in mph when it comes to car performance). I would be very surprised if the Focus could get all of it's 305bhp to the road at 50mph. It might not be smoking the tyres but that would be down to the electronics reducing the power to a level that could be used.
Now, if you were to move the engine and gearbox in the Focus to the back seat like the Clio V6 I reckon you would see a serious improvement.
Potential flywheel power to weight on its own is not a guaranteed index of acceleration. What matters is how much power you can get to the road and the FWD is always at a disadvantage. Laws of nature can't be beaten.

Damien360

Matt Simis wrote: »

I dont care if I had no or low emissions. You are way off on the pricing though, my Audi S8 plus LPG is way way cheaper to buy and therefore total cost of ownership much much lower.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

The S8 is 129,740 euro on the www.audi.ie website. I already know you're probably talking about secondhand.

Deleted User wrote: »

We are not talking 2nd hand here, we all know buying a 2k car is far cheaper than an e.v, for now!

Of course he is talking about second-hand. he is comparing 2 cars to the value of €20,000. Regardless of whether the car is new or old the cost of ownership is based on the value you bought it for, it's resale value and it's running costs.

Joe 90

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Electric wheel hub motors as well, sweet Amazingly we are going back to this design to further reduce the weight of EV's by removing most of requirements for a powertrain.

Being serious, I suspect that wheel hub motors are a dead end. You might save a bit of weight in drive shafts and CVJs but at the expense of the motor itself becoming unsprung weight.

Sesshoumaru

Damien360 wrote: »

Of course he is talking about second-hand. he is comparing 2 cars to the value of €20,000. Regardless of whether the car is new or old the cost of ownership is based on the value you bought it for, it's resale value and it's running costs.

I think you're playing fast and loose with the rules here For starters a lot of people would be intimidated by an S8

1) The size of it

2) The power

Not really a good comparison!

Nissan doctor

Joe 90 wrote: »

Being serious, I suspect that wheel hub motors are a dead end. You might save a bit of weight in drive shafts and CVJs but at the expense of the motor itself becoming unsprung weight.

You think that most people in the market for an electric car are bothered about something that effects handling??

Joe 90

Nissan doctor wrote: »

You think that most people in the market for an electric car are bothered about something that effects handling??

Not just handling/roadholding but ride and safety.

RoverZT

RoverZT wrote: »

If your watching the pennies you don't buy a new car:D

Very few people have 20k+ to buy a new car.

There are a lot of people that can afford it but won't spend because they are afraid to spend because they are too wrapped up in the doom and gloom we hear daily, there are still quiet a few working and can afford to buy cars.

Those that can afford it would be mad to buy a new ice car, that's what this discussion is about.

Buy a 28K Golf or equivalent and pay a fortune in diesel, your choice and I don't think most people regardless if they can afford it or not would choose to spend a lot more on diesel, but would decide to spend it on a better car or save it.

Matt Simis

Matt Simis wrote: »

I dont care if I had no or low emissions. You are way off on the pricing though, my Audi S8 plus LPG is way way cheaper to buy and therefore total cost of ownership much much lower.

No you are missing the point, this discussion is about buying new ice V new e.v!

Sesshoumaru

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

The S8 is 129,740 euro on the www.audi.ie website. I already know you're probably talking about secondhand.

Maybe 12 years old ? lol

Bruthal

LIGHTNING wrote: »

You know what I have decided to stop posting in EV threads. The blind EV fanboyism is starting to get annoying.

PS if you think that electric motors dont need maintenance your living in dreamland.

There would be a lot less maintenance than on an engine. Electric motors can run for years with little or no maintenance.

Nissan doctor

Deleted User wrote: »

There are a lot of people that can afford it but won't spend because they are afraid to spend because they are too wrapped up in the doom and gloom we hear daily, there are still quiet a few working and can afford to buy cars.

Those that can afford it would be mad to buy a new ice car, that's what this discussion is about.

Buy a 28K Golf or equivalent and pay a fortune in diesel, your choice and I don't think most people regardless if they can afford it or not would choose to spend a lot more on diesel, but would decide to spend it on a better car or save it.

Now? Why??

I'd wager the the vast majority of motorists would like to be able to drive more then 200-300kms in one go, or drive somewhere without having to worry if there is a charging point, or do more then 15k a year without having to pay extra for it?

IMO an EV is by no means the logical choice for most people buying a new car as their only form of transport ATM.



Also ICE has stood for In Car Entertainment for years before the EV heads decided to use it to describe the enemy.

RoverZT

robbie7730 wrote: »

There would be a lot less maintenance than on an engine. Electric motors can run for years with little or no maintenance.

My hoover is always acting up.

As is my electric lawnmower.

Where is your evidence.

A diesel Avensis 2.0 d4d did 4 million miles in lab conditions, running 24/7 @ 50 mph:)

Bruthal

RoverZT wrote: »

My hoover is all always acting up.

As is my electric lawnmower.

Where is your evidence.

A diesel Avensis 2.0 d4d did 4 million miles in lab conditions, running 24/7 @ 50 mph:)

They are single phase universal motors used in them appliances, using brushes to energise the rotor. They have brushes and commutators to wear out, or overheat when overloaded.

You will have to be thinking in terms of industrial 3 phase or brushless induction motors to understand where the reliability of electric motors im talking about comes from, not a 50 or 100 euro lawnmower.

The evidence is in any industrial use of electric motors. An engine has countless parts subject to wear and tear. An electric motor has the bearings on the shaft, and thats about it, except your lawn mower motor with its brushes and no overload protection etc.

RoverZT

RoverZT wrote: »

What about insurance?

You can't just go and disable top speed, add 300lb/ft torque, 200bhp.

Insurance companies here don't like mods.

You will have to get an engineers report to get insurance.

What about the gearbox?

Wouldn't you need a new one for the extra torque?

You will need uprated brakes, chassis wouldn't have been designed to take extra power, other components the same, list goes on and on.

The regen would take most of the braking energy and the normal brakes would be fine.

You could keep the stock speed of 84 mph, that would be fast enough for me really.

You need to watch heat of cables, the motor and controller would be protected but the cables should be over spec, but usually they can take a lot of peak power for accelerating.

Once you hack into the controller you just turn up the amps and that gives you more torque.

The chassis would mostly be fine unless you are driving completely recklessly on back roads or wanted insane power. You could upgrade the suspension at least if you wanted.

RoverZT

RoverZT wrote: »

My hoover is always acting up.

As is my electric lawnmower.

Where is your evidence.

A diesel Avensis 2.0 d4d did 4 million miles in lab conditions, running 24/7 @ 50 mph:)

Must have a crap lawnmower and hoover.

My hoover never failed, nor my 8 year old fridge or washing machine, nor my electric bike that I'm running 6kw peak more than I should!

Your point ?

My A4 B6 tdi multitronic had the multitronic ecu replaced by the owner at 40.k miles, had a/c compressor replaced by me at 120k miles. Sold it at 200,000 miles!

My brothers A4 B6 Multitronic died at 55 k miles he just bought it 4 weeks before and luckily he got a brand new multitronic. The new ones int he 08+ seem to be fine though, not trying to scare anyone off multitronics!

My 05 caddy twin mass flywheel died after 15,000 kms, along with wheel bearing, my 06 dsg caddy same happened,

Electric cars won't be completely fault free nothing is. But the Leaf is proving very reliable!

My 07 Prius 110,000 kms , no faults to date!