Dublin Marathon 2012 - Mentored Novices Thread

npresto

Hi everyone!

Have read every post so far and decided to join today and have put my name in the spreadsheet.

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs?
5 Mile - 38:15 - Raheny 5 Mile Jan-2012
10k - 47:59 - Great Ireland Run Apr-2012
Half Marathon - 1Hr 59mins 03secs - Training May-2012

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training?
No

How much training do you currently do?
Try to run at least 5k every other day and a 10k at weekends

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
Would love to finish 3:59:xx

How many days a week can you train?
4-5 days a week. Starting HH Novice 1 today.

Why are you running this marathon?
Always wanted to say I ran a marathon and if I don't do it now I never will.

Bit of background
43 year old male, married with 3 young boys (7, 5 & 3.5 years old).
Started running July 2011 in a bid to get fit again lose weight as I was heading towards 15.5 stone.
Entered my first race in Jan-2012 - Raheny 5 Mile and have since entered Great Ireland Run 10k,
Dublin Night Run 10k, ParkWest 10k and Clogherhead Integral Seaside 10k
I use Runkeeper on my phone to log my runs and have ran 750km since July last year.

menoscemo

NoelJ wrote: »

10k in 50 minutes
half marathon in 2:10
8 miles in 1:10.

I think you should do a race to find out your race times as we will generally be able to run much faster in a Race than in training. However even what you have listed seem a bit at odds, for example a 50 minute 10k should convert to a 64ish minute 8 mile and to a 1:50ish Half marathon (all things being equal). Is it a case that in the longer runs you go out fast and then are forced to slow down?

If so, you need to get out of this mindset. You should learn to go out at a pace you can sustain easily for the whole run. Also your general training runs should not be overly hard or taxing.
Are you 'racing' your 10ks? You should be going at a pace that is very relaxed and one which you can hold a conversation for the entirity.
If you find these 50minute 10ks to be really easy and sustainable then probably a 4hr marathon is a very soft target.

If your goal is a 4hr marathon (9 minute miles) and you are following HH Novice plan then none of your runs should be faster than this. Even if you are following the novice 2 plan, your weekly 'pace' run should only be 9 minute miles and the rest of the runs should be slower.

I know it sounds counterintuitive but you really should learn to run the majority of your runs slowly. Running slowly is better for building endurnace than running fast. Also when you start covering more miles, running fast in training will only make you more prone to injury.

Trampas

was out for run this morning 6.50am before work around 3.5 miles.

To answer jinxremoving I have breakfast after it as recovery run doesn't use up much energy for that distance.

foot feeling much better after all the ice and compression tape i have used over the last few days have help with a few happy pills (neurofen)

Feel I will be back to 100% for LSR this weekend.

miguelk

jinxremoving wrote: »

went on a 3 mile run this morning before work, first time trying that (normally do evenings or mornings at weekends). found it tough enough going, would people normally have breakfast before heading out at en early hour? what kind of warm ups would you do?thanks

For my lsr's (which are early) I eat well the night before, then a bowl of porridge/babana when I rise, then drive to work (45 mins) where I do the miles before I start work, showers in there etc which is great. The porridge is great stuff! got me through a 9 mile lsr no problem this morning and kicked off work at 8:30.

sweep22

menoscemo wrote: »

If your 5 mile race pace is 9:58/mile then we can assume 9 min/mile indeed 10 min/mile is far from easy.

At a guess you should be doing the majority of your runs at around 12 min/mile.

Yes the HH plans can be a bit vague on pace, especially the Novice ones. The idea I guess is just to build up the miles to a point where you can get around the course. Therefore almost all your runs should be at this very easy 12+ min/mile. If you plan to run one of your short runs every fortnight a bit faster then fair enough, but plan to do it before the run. Consciously make all the other runs slow (this will help with recovery and avoiding injury).

If you are going to be doing other races during your plan then maybe leave the harder efforts to the races. Try to make the training as enjoyable as possible.

12 minutes? :eek: wow I was way off.. My last two 3 milers were at 9:15!

Can't say I'm looking forward to running that slowly. Thanks for the advice!

menoscemo

sweep22 wrote: »

12 minutes? :eek: wow I was way off.. My last two 3 milers were at 9:15!

Can't say I'm looking forward to running that slowly. Thanks for the advice!

Did you run as fast as you can in the 5 mile race? I find it strange that you do 3 mile training runs at 9:15/mile and yet do a 5 mile race at close to 10 min/mile.

I'm guessing the 3 mile runs you do flat out? If so yeah it is wiser to slow them right down, you shouldn't be out of breath doing these shorter runs, they are designed to aid recover while building aerobic endurance. They should be in and around the same pace as your LSR's.

sweep22

menoscemo wrote: »

Did you run as fast as you can in the 5 mile race? I find it strange that you do 3 mile training runs at 9:15/mile and yet do a 5 mile race at close to 10 min/mile.

I'm guessing the 3 mile runs you do flat out? If so yeah it is wiser to slow them right down, you shouldn't be out of breath doing these shorter runs, they are designed to aid recover while building aerobic endurance. They should be in and around the same pace as your LSR's.

I started in the 50+min wave and spent a very large portion of the race weaving in and out of people. Also had a fair bit in the tank when I finished, so I guess it's not a fair representation of my 'race pace' at this stage..

I would be short on breath when doing the shorter runs alright. It suppose it just seemed intuitive to leg it as fast as I can.. Time to apply the brakes

Pacing Mule

The suggested weekly plan is now up on the sheet for both week 1 (last week) and this week (being week 2 of the Hal Higdon plan)

I'm aware that some members are following their own plans or HHNOV2 but it's impractical to put every plan up there and no doubt will cause confusion so I've left it at the plan that YoungAnne will be throwing up on the thread here.

Keep the suggestions and feedback coming

PS We have now logged well over the 2000 miles and climbing by the hour.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvtQvl8pDuH3dEs0eDk2QUE4SUFRQVhTZlV1elNUdlE#gid=5

shortie_chik

they're just bleugh, but I eat them because I feel like I should!

Does anyone have a suggestion for a good alternative? Something handy, filling, easily digested, will give me good energy, don't cost a forture, can always have them in the press, but with a non-banana taste or texture!

Cereal bars or something? I like that a banana is one of my 5-a-day, but sometimes they're just sickening

Deedee2012 wrote: »

Is it just me or is everyone obsessed with the training? If I'm not running I'm wishing I was running/thinking about running/reading about running or perusing this thread. I'm boring the pants off everyone at home!! Dee

I am also hooked on thinking about running, but I'm still in the closet so you guys are my only outlet! Well I've told my boyfriend but I don't want to get dumped for being a bore so I'm trying to rein it in!

Satanta

I was chatting to a mate of mine who I did a fair bit of cycling with last year, and he was talking about recovery drinks. He mentioned this stuff last year too but I didn't really take hom on because I try to stick to natural nutrition as much as possible.

Does anyone here use them after their long runs or hard sessions? If so, would you recomend them?

liamo123

Satanta wrote: »

I was chatting to a mate of mine who I did a fair bit of cycling with last year, and he was talking about recovery drinks. He mentioned this stuff last year too but I didn't really take hom on because I try to stick to natural nutrition as much as possible.

Does anyone here use them after their long runs or hard sessions? If so, would you recomend them?

There's so many of them on the market... Its just a case of trying some out and seeing what suits u....

Alternatively half pt water/ half pt fruit juice and pinch of salt. Exact same and a fraction of the price ........

Deedee2012

shortie_chik wrote: »

they're just bleugh, but I eat them because I feel like I should!

Does anyone have a suggestion for a good alternative? Something handy, filling, easily digested, will give me good energy, don't cost a forture, can always have them in the press, but with a non-banana taste or texture!

Cereal bars or something?

Have you tried the Belvita breakfast biscuit things, there's a few different types and I think it's about 350 calories per pack, that's what I have with a cuppa before a morning run, they're really light on the stomach, you don't feel full but give plenty of energy to get around a run, would definitely recommend.

Mr Slow

Satanta wrote: »

I was chatting to a mate of mine who I did a fair bit of cycling with last year, and he was talking about recovery drinks. He mentioned this stuff last year too but I didn't really take hom on because I try to stick to natural nutrition as much as possible.

Does anyone here use them after their long runs or hard sessions? If so, would you recomend them?

liamo123 wrote: »

There's so many of them on the market... Its just a case of trying some out and seeing what suits u....

Alternatively half pt water/ half pt fruit juice and pinch of salt. Exact same and a fraction of the price ........

The best recovery drink IMO is chocolate milk, Avonmore do a nice one made with low fat milk.

career_move

jinxremoving wrote: »

went on a 3 mile run this morning before work, first time trying that (normally do evenings or mornings at weekends). found it tough enough going, would people normally have breakfast before heading out at en early hour? what kind of warm ups would you do?thanks

I do a lot of early morning runs. I never eat before them. If its a LSR I take water and a gel with me. I run better on an empty stomach:D

career_move

Mr Slow wrote: »

The best recovery drink IMO is chocolate milk, Avonmore do a nice one made with low fat milk.

Someone mentioned that in a post a while back (maybe it was you:P) and I have to admit I was sceptical. But I tried a Yazoo one last weekend and it was actually very refreshing:D

Macaonbhuit

A question (that's probably been answered) about the Marathon pace midweek run. Should I really wait until I complete the 1/2 marathon to make the assessment of this speed? My PB for 10K is 44.38, but I'm not sure that can be used as an indicator. Mcmillan says 3.29 on that basis, but that strikes me as optimistic at just under 5 min/Km (although a 5.30-6.00 Min/Km pace feels really comfortable over 10K). I'm doing a blend of Novice l and ll. i.e. Novice ll Tues-Thur and Novice l LSR's because I haven't been doing any runs over 9K over the course of June. I am just very wary of running too fast in training. Should I just be conservative and base training on a 3.45 or 4.00 target? Can I ramp up later in training if I'm feeling more confident?...... Actually that's quite a few questions... But any guidance is appreciated.

shortie_chik

Deedee2012 wrote: »

Have you tried the Belvita breakfast biscuit things, there's a few different types and I think it's about 350 calories per pack, that's what I have with a cuppa before a morning run, they're really light on the stomach, you don't feel full but give plenty of energy to get around a run, would definitely recommend.

Good idea, thanks! Actually I think I had something like these when I did the Semi de Paris in March, but not Belvita. Some French brand that looks like Belvita, but tasted like bourbon biscuits - they were yummy chocolate chip

rasher_m

Im just wondering about times for 10km and half marathon. How will we improve our times for these if we're running slowing for each run?
I know some who havnt been running for long will but what about the rest or is it a case of training for a marathon and leaving times for short races for afterwards

tang1

Race your races as fast as you can and keep your training runs slow. I've followed that idea since start of the year and ran 10 mile PB by 5 mins, 10km PB by over two and half mins and half marathon PB by over 5 mins. You wont know what your capable of unless you race your races and what pace you can comfortably sustain for race distances. All the slow running is about building endurance and time on your feet. I'm running a race a month before DCM just to give me an idea of where i'm at come October time. And i'll be racing them all as hard i possibly can.

corny

rasher_m wrote: »

it a case of training for a marathon and leaving times for short races for afterwards

You'd be surprised how much you'll improve across the board by slogging it out at a slower tempo. I ran a 7 minute 10k PB recently and i don't remember what its like to run fastish in training its been that long.

La Di Da

career_move wrote: »

Someone mentioned that in a post a while back (maybe it was you:P) and I have to admit I was sceptical. But I tried a Yazoo one last weekend and it was actually very refreshing:D

Anyone tried non-alcoholic beer as a recovery drink?!

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/nonalcoholic-beer-aids-marathon-recovery/

Martin_ie2012

Hi sorry if this has been asked before, have looked at macmillan calculator and got the infor re:what pace I should be running in each run. Turns out ive been running way too fast in all the runs, will really have to make an effort to slow down. Anyway my question is the run on thursday or the run before the LSR is this classed as an easy run or recovery run? Thanks again for all the help so far.

tang1

Martin_ie2012 wrote: »

Hi sorry if this has been asked before, have looked at macmillan calculator and got the infor re:what pace I should be running in each run. Turns out ive been running way too fast in all the runs, will really have to make an effort to slow down. Anyway my question is the run on thursday or the run before the LSR is this classed as an easy run or recovery run? Thanks again for all the help so far.

It should be an easy run, the run after your LSR is a recovery run. It should be easy so as you can maximise energy etc for your LSR.

rasher_m

Martin_ie2012 wrote: »

Hi sorry if this has been asked before, have looked at macmillan calculator and got the infor re:what pace I should be running in each run. Turns out ive been running way too fast in all the runs, will really have to make an effort to slow down. Anyway my question is the run on thursday or the run before the LSR is this classed as an easy run or recovery run? Thanks again for all the help so far.

As far as I know, Monday is the recovery run after the LSR. Then Thursday would be easy.

jinxremoving

Runchick wrote: »

Hi jinxremoving I sometimes do this and actually sleep in my running gear (bar shoes;)) - I find I don't talk myself out of it that way! I grab a banana and drink some water and head straight out, no warm up - just stretch when I get back. I wake up properly after the first mile or so! Its great to get it out of the way nice and early but I agree that its tougher, I run better after a day of food and hydration...

thanks for this, i tried a banana and water today and it was much better! also put my running gear beside my alarm clock so i'd see them when i got up. was halfway down the road before i'd woken up!

menoscemo

rasher_m wrote: »

Im just wondering about times for 10km and half marathon. How will we improve our times for these if we're running slowing for each run?
I know some who havnt been running for long will but what about the rest or is it a case of training for a marathon and leaving times for short races for afterwards

Anything over 400m is an aerobic race. By running long and slow you will be building up your aerobic capacity. During marathon training all your 5k, 10k, HM times will come down because of the fact you are running long and slow and building up your miles. Running your short training runs fast will actually hinder your progress over the shorter distances as well as the longer ones.
Only when you are consistently running big mileage (think 40+ miles per week) should you introduce speedwork even if you were training for a 5k. If you looked at the training schedule of an elite 5-10k runner you'd be surprised to see than most of his/her runs would be 'easy runs'.

You should definitely do a race once in a while to test this theory out, that's why I think the race series is a great idea for novice runner, as well as getting used to a race environment you get to see the progress in your times. You should race all these races flat out to see how your fitness is improving.

rasher_m

menoscemo wrote: »

Anything over 400m is an aerobic race. By running long and slow you will be building up your aerobic capacity. During marathon training all your 5k, 10k, HM times will come down because of the fact you are running long and slow and building up your miles. Running your short training runs fast will actually hinder your progress over the shorter distances as well as the longer ones.
Only when you are consistently running big mileage (think 40+ miles per week) should you introduce speedwork even if you were training for a 5k. If you looked at the training schedule of an elite 5-10k runner you'd be surprised to see than most of his/her runs would be 'easy runs'.

You should definitely do a race once in a while to test this theory out, that's why I think the race series is a great idea for novice runner, as well as getting used to a race environment you get to see the progress in your times. You should race all these races flat out to see how your fitness is improving.

That is great to know. I was wondering why I wasnt improving even though I had added two tempo runs that I never done before to my training. I will probably cut them out completely now and just do the one pace run a week which is in Hal Hidgen Novice 2.

Thx!

Pacing Mule

Had a minor "jaysus" moment today.

Was flicking through the FIT magazine they gave out at the 5 mile race and came across an article about 3 people heading for their first marathon in Dublin this year. One of the opening lines said they were all training for a marathon in "less than 20 weeks"

This may sound very silly but "less than 20 weeks" suddenly sounded an awful lot closer than the end of October. :eek:

menoscemo

rasher_m wrote: »

That is great to know. I was wondering why I wasnt improving even though I had added two tempo runs that I never done before to my training. I will probably cut them out completely now and just do the one pace run a week which is in Hal Hidgen Novice 2.

Thx!

Yes, generally more miles = more improvement.

I trained this year for Connemara Ultra and did a few months of 70-80 miles per week. All were quite slow (8-9:30 min/mile) and during that training I took 1:30 off my 5 mile PB (33minutes - 31:30) and 14 minutes off my Marathon PB (3:24-3:10).
After the ultra I went back to lesser miles with more speedwork and my progress has stagnated!! Now I am back in marathon mode (high miles) and I expect to start taking lots of time off all my PB's!!

sureitsgrand

Hey all,

I'm finding all this talk about running more slow miles really fascinating and I think I'm gonna start being more aware of my pacing from now on....

Just a question though: I'm following Hal Higdon Novice 1 and as ye know today is meant to be the race pace day (for me 9 min/mi) but thinking back to yesterday that's the pace I was doing. Should I do my 3 miles today and tomorrow at a slow pace (9:40/mi) to correct this or just go ahead and do my race pace miles today as per the programme and revert back to schedule tomorrow?

Hope that makes sense!:o