Dublin Marathon 2012 - Mentored Novices Thread

slim4life

Hey guys, Been really motivated since finding this thread and reading everybodys stories and getting advice. Done a LSR of 17km on Saturday which as it turned out wasnt so slow (averaged 12km/h)...I had intended to run around 10.5-11km/h. Anyway, SUnday I felt fine but still took the day to rest. Yesterday evening I decided to go for a 10k run. Got to the 5k mark and felt a small pain in my calf. Kept niggling at me until it got allot worse but I was 5k away from home with no way back so kept going. By the time I got home my leg was seriously sore and my pace had fallen to 6:30 kilometres! My usual pace on this run would be around 4:50 per km or so....The same calf had caused me trouble a few weeks ago and I took almost a week off to sort it out, it seemed as though it had healed but never felt back to full strength. It seems to be 10 times worse now. The wierd part is it doesnt bother me whatsoever when I am walkin...literally no pain or nothing, it feels fine. But the second I pick up the pace it gets very sore. Its killing me now knowing I cant run for a couple of days and I am seriously thinking of going to see a physio, really disapointed that its affecting my training now right at a time that I was getting properly into it and was 100% motivated every single day to get out and run....

Darren 83

slim4life wrote: »

Hey guys, Been really motivated since finding this thread and reading everybodys stories and getting advice. Done a LSR of 17km on Saturday which as it turned out wasnt so slow (averaged 12km/h)...I had intended to run around 10.5-11km/h. Anyway, SUnday I felt fine but still took the day to rest. Yesterday evening I decided to go for a 10k run. Got to the 5k mark and felt a small pain in my calf. Kept niggling at me until it got allot worse but I was 5k away from home with no way back so kept going. By the time I got home my leg was seriously sore and my pace had fallen to 6:30 kilometres! My usual pace on this run would be around 4:50 per km or so....The same calf had caused me trouble a few weeks ago and I took almost a week off to sort it out, it seemed as though it had healed but never felt back to full strength. It seems to be 10 times worse now. The wierd part is it doesnt bother me whatsoever when I am walkin...literally no pain or nothing, it feels fine. But the second I pick up the pace it gets very sore. Its killing me now knowing I cant run for a couple of days and I am seriously thinking of going to see a physio, really disapointed that its affecting my training now right at a time that I was getting properly into it and was 100% motivated every single day to get out and run....

" I was getting properly into it and was 100% motivated every single day to get out and run." Are you not taking rest days? Get plenty of ice on your calfs and rest them

lmguillou

Hi, you have to be carefull, reading you reminds me what I experienced and it appeared to be the Achilles, got tendonitis. It first appeared in March, had some rest for a week or 2 then it was fine. It reappeared in June, I rested a week went back for a run and it got worse. so I went to physio, and could not run for a month... Just went back running 2 weeks ago very slowly.

blockic

slim4life wrote: »

It seems to be 10 times worse now.

If it is as bad as it sounds you should go see a physio. It wont do any harm and it would be best to find out what it is now and get it sorted rather than it causing you more trouble when the milage really builds up.

I went with a few niggles a couple weeks back and I was told that I was lucky I went when i did as i could of done damage when i stepped up the milage without getting it checked out at the time.

Even if its only for your peace of mind, its worth going. Im probably going to go, once a month now before the marathon to ensure im in optimum order for the day and nip any trouble in the bud.

Donal112

Hi guys,

Following HHN2 programme. looking for some advice on the effort required on pace runs. Ran an 8-mile pace run last night at 8:30/mile pace. Found it fairly tough going to maintain the pace towards the end, definitely couldn't have kept it going for another 5 miles. My question is - should a pace run feel like hard work at this stage or should it be relatively comfortable for the first 10 miles or so?

I do my other runs and LSR at approx 9.15 - 9.30 pace and generally find these all fairly comfortable to run. Weekly pace run was ok (if harder than my other runs) up to yesterday when I upped from 6 to 8 miles, the first time I really felt that this pace would be seriously tough to maintain over a longer distance.

So I suppose my query is will it get easier to maintain a pace as I get fitter/more into the programme or should I re-set my goal to eg. 8.45/mile pace and see if this is a more comfortable pace on next weeks pace run.

Thanks for any thoughts.

RayCun

slim4life wrote: »

Done a LSR of 17km on Saturday which as it turned out wasnt so slow (averaged 12km/h)...I had intended to run around 10.5-11km/h. ... My usual pace on this run would be around 4:50 per km or so....

Too fast.

Look, everyone does the same thing with their first marathon. They think that they can run 10 miles (or whatever) at a certain pace, and it's bearable, so what they have to do is run 11 miles at that pace, then 12, then 14... and then on race day they run 26 miles at that pace.

That isn't how it works.

If you're used to running up to 10 miles at a certain pace, and maybe 20 miles a week at that pace, that's fine, your body is used to it. But over the course of your marathon prep you will run a lot more miles than you have done before. There's a line you have to walk between working harder so your body gets stronger, and exhausting yourself by doing more than your body can recover from. If you keep running at marathon pace all the time, you will end up on the wrong side of that line. You will get injured, or start missing runs through tiredness, or turn up on race day overtrained and under-rested, and not perform at your best.

The other danger is that your body can adapt to the work, but in the wrong way. When we run long distances we get most of your energy from stored glycogen, but we don't store enough glycogen to get around a marathon. The other source of energy available is fat, but using fat is less efficient so it isn't the preferred option for your body.
When you run long distances at a slow enough pace, your body will learn to use a mix of glycogen and fat for energy. On race day, even though you are running faster, you will burn some fat from the beginning of your run and that will make your glycogen stores last longer.
If you run at marathon pace all the time this adaption doesn't take place. You're working harder from the start, so your body sticks to the more efficient glycogen energy for as long as possible. On most of your training runs this is possible (if exhausting), because you store enough glycogen to get to 18/20 miles.
But on marathon day, what happens? You burn glycogen from the start, and you run out of glycogen somewhere in Clonskeagh. And then, at the bottom of the hill, you hit the wall. Suddenly everything becomes harder, suddenly running - at whatever pace - seems almost impossible. And you become one of the thousands of people who say "yeah, I was running brilliantly for the first 20 miles, on target for my goal time, but... I walked most of the last 6 miles"

People always say "but I can't run slower, it just isn't comfortable". Trust me, learning to run a little slower is a lot easier than walking to the finish line from the RDS.

ncmc

career_move wrote: »

Thanks Anne. That makes sense alright especially with the hills. I'm back to square one though....everybody is telling me different things

I'm in the same boat as you Career Move, I am doing my first 1/2 marathon on the 19th and don't know what to do about following a pacer. They only have a pacer for 1 hour 45 or 2 hours, I would have ideally liked to follow a 1 hour 50 pacer. Don't know what to do now. I have only done two races to date, a 10km back in April in 49 mins and 9.2 miles in the Cork marathon relay in 80 mins back in June.

I know I could just pace myself using my Garmin, but I have never followed a pacer before, so would have liked to get that experience before the actual marathon.

I still have hopes of following the 4 hour pacer in Dublin, so think I will just start off with the 1 hour 45 pacer in Clonmel and ease back if I am really struggling.

Donal112

RayCun wrote: »

Too fast.

Look, everyone does the same thing with their first marathon. They think that they can run 10 miles (or whatever) at a certain pace, and it's bearable, so what they have to do is run 11 miles at that pace, then 12, then 14... and then on race day they run 26 miles at that pace.

That isn't how it works.

If you're used to running up to 10 miles at a certain pace, and maybe 20 miles a week at that pace, that's fine, your body is used to it. But over the course of your marathon prep you will run a lot more miles than you have done before. There's a line you have to walk between working harder so your body gets stronger, and exhausting yourself by doing more than your body can recover from. If you keep running at marathon pace all the time, you will end up on the wrong side of that line. You will get injured, or start missing runs through tiredness, or turn up on race day overtrained and under-rested, and not perform at your best.

The other danger is that your body can adapt to the work, but in the wrong way. When we run long distances we get most of your energy from stored glycogen, but we don't store enough glycogen to get around a marathon. The other source of energy available is fat, but using fat is less efficient so it isn't the preferred option for your body.
When you run long distances at a slow enough pace, your body will learn to use a mix of glycogen and fat for energy. On race day, even though you are running faster, you will burn some fat from the beginning of your run and that will make your glycogen stores last longer.
If you run at marathon pace all the time this adaption doesn't take place. You're working harder from the start, so your body sticks to the more efficient glycogen energy for as long as possible. On most of your training runs this is possible (if exhausting), because you store enough glycogen to get to 18/20 miles.
But on marathon day, what happens? You burn glycogen from the start, and you run out of glycogen somewhere in Clonskeagh. And then, at the bottom of the hill, you hit the wall. Suddenly everything becomes harder, suddenly running - at whatever pace - seems almost impossible. And you become one of the thousands of people who say "yeah, I was running brilliantly for the first 20 miles, on target for my goal time, but... I walked most of the last 6 miles"

People always say "but I can't run slower, it just isn't comfortable". Trust me, learning to run a little slower is a lot easier than walking to the finish line from the RDS.

Thanks Ray,

thats the best explanation I've seen for the logic behind slow runs!

RayCun

The most efficient way to run a race, and the one that will get you the fastest time, is to run both halves at close to the same pace. Sometimes people find that they have more energy left in the second half than they expected and can run a negative split - second half faster than the first.

It's almost always a bad idea to run the first half faster than the second, to plan to slow down in the later stages of a race. You end up using more energy than you should in the first half and you can't hold your pace in the second (even though that pace was already supposed to be slower) Psychologically its very difficult too, because if you slow down in the second half you will have runners streaming past you. You'll just want to give up.

If you want to run with a pace group, and you think you'll finish between two groups, start with the slower group. You can push on at halfway for your best time. If you start with the faster group... you could blow up, and the slower group will end up passing you anyway.

ncmc

RayCun wrote: »

The most efficient way to run a race, and the one that will get you the fastest time, is to run both halves at close to the same pace. Sometimes people find that they have more energy left in the second half than they expected and can run a negative split - second half faster than the first.

It's almost always a bad idea to run the first half faster than the second, to plan to slow down in the later stages of a race. You end up using more energy than you should in the first half and you can't hold your pace in the second (even though that pace was already supposed to be slower) Psychologically its very difficult too, because if you slow down in the second half you will have runners streaming past you. You'll just want to give up.

If you want to run with a pace group, and you think you'll finish between two groups, start with the slower group. You can push on at halfway for your best time. If you start with the faster group... you could blow up, and the slower group will end up passing you anyway.

Thanks Ray, I can see the logic in that. So in my case, do you think I should start off the 1/2 marathon with the 2 hour pacers and speed up if I feel that I can?

slim4life

RayCun wrote: »

Too fast.

Thanks Ray I never looked at it this way that makes perfect sence! 12km/h is the slowest I have ran in quite a few weeks now, my mid-week runs would be faster but I can see I need to slow down the LSR...Think a visit to the physio is on the cards first now to try get this sorted. I have been taking 2 days rest per week but think I may have pushed myself a little bit too far in terms of pace.

Thanks everybody for your advice, seriously invaluable!

RayCun

ncmc wrote: »

Thanks Ray, I can see the logic in that. So in my case, do you think I should start off the 1/2 marathon with the 2 hour pacers and speed up if I feel that I can?

If you don't think you're in 1.45 shape, you shouldn't start with that group. When you get dropped, you could get dropped hard.
If you really want to run with a pace group, then yeah, the 2 hour group. But there's not a lot to see If they're too slow for you, kick on.

La Di Da

RayCun wrote: »

When you run long distances at a slow enough pace, your body will learn to use a mix of glycogen and fat for energy. On race day, even though you are running faster, you will burn some fat from the beginning of your run and that will make your glycogen stores last longer.

Very sound advice RayCun. Many thanks. Quick question: if you keep to the suggested pace given by the McMillan calculator for the long runs, etc. is it safe enough to assume you'll train your body to burn fat / glycogen to avoid the Clonskeagh wall?

RayCun

La Di Da wrote: »

Very sound advice RayCun. Many thanks. Quick question: if you keep to the suggested pace given by the McMillan calculator for the long runs, etc. is it safe enough to assume you'll train your body to burn fat / glycogen to avoid the Clonskeagh wall?

I'm afraid there are no certainties... all you can do is give yourself the best chance. I'm not sure what pace range McMillan suggests, but a long run pace about 10% slower than planned race pace is the general advice.

La Di Da

RayCun wrote: »

I'm afraid there are no certainties... all you can do is give yourself the best chance. I'm not sure what pace range McMillan suggests, but a long run pace about 10% slower than planned race pace is the general advice.

Great I'll remember that. Running too fast is not a problem I'm having these days - I seem to be running slower and slower as the mileage increases ...

rasher_m

Donal112 wrote: »

Hi guys,

Following HHN2 programme. looking for some advice on the effort required on pace runs. Ran an 8-mile pace run last night at 8:30/mile pace. Found it fairly tough going to maintain the pace towards the end, definitely couldn't have kept it going for another 5 miles. My question is - should a pace run feel like hard work at this stage or should it be relatively comfortable for the first 10 miles or so?

I do my other runs and LSR at approx 9.15 - 9.30 pace and generally find these all fairly comfortable to run. Weekly pace run was ok (if harder than my other runs) up to yesterday when I upped from 6 to 8 miles, the first time I really felt that this pace would be seriously tough to maintain over a longer distance.

So I suppose my query is will it get easier to maintain a pace as I get fitter/more into the programme or should I re-set my goal to eg. 8.45/mile pace and see if this is a more comfortable pace on next weeks pace run.

Thanks for any thoughts.

I feel the same about the pace run as well. So I start slowly and build up to the pace by about 20 mins...3km and a bit. Then I maintain the pace for the rest of the miles...up to 6 miles last week for the mid week pace run. So this is about two thirds of the run at pace. I dont think I could maintain full pace for the entire 7 miles this week without feeling jacked at the end so why kill myself. I'll probably run 5 pace miles tonight and 2 miles building up.

menoscemo

Donal112 wrote: »

Hi guys,

Following HHN2 programme. looking for some advice on the effort required on pace runs. Ran an 8-mile pace run last night at 8:30/mile pace. Found it fairly tough going to maintain the pace towards the end, definitely couldn't have kept it going for another 5 miles. My question is - should a pace run feel like hard work at this stage or should it be relatively comfortable for the first 10 miles or so?

The Bolded Part suggests you are doing your Paced Run at Half Marathon Pace? If so that's wrong, you should be doing it at Marathon Pace. Marathon pace would be about 30-40 seconds/mile slower than Half Marathon pace for you.

career_move

ncmc wrote: »

I'm in the same boat as you Career Move, I am doing my first 1/2 marathon on the 19th and don't know what to do about following a pacer.

I'll let you know how I get on I'd say i'll be going with the 1 50 pacers (hello Claralara and Digger!!) based on what Anne and Ray were saying

Donal112

menoscemo wrote: »

The Bolded Part suggests you are doing your Paced Run at Half Marathon Pace? If so that's wrong, you should be doing it at Marathon Pace. Marathon pace would be about 30-40 seconds/mile slower than Half Marathon pace for you.

Thanks for the reply Menoscemo.

My half marathon PB is 1hr47 and this year I am aiming for under 1hr45 (8min/mile pace) in the Dublin half in September so I am kind of in the right territory, but I think I will try to drop pace run to 8:45/mile next week to see how that feels.

Actually one last question, when training for DCM would you do any runs at half marathon pace in preparation leading up to the Dublin half in September? Or just train purely for the marathon but race hard in the half itself? Thanks

menoscemo

Donal112 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply Menoscemo.

My half marathon PB is 1hr47 and this year I am aiming for under 1hr45 (8min/mile pace) in the Dublin half in September so I am kind of in the right territory, but I think I will try to drop pace run to 8:45/mile next week to see how that feels.

Actually one last question, when training for DCM would you do any runs at half marathon pace in preparation leading up to the Dublin half in September? Or just train purely for the marathon but race hard in the half itself? Thanks

I misunderstood, Sorry. You are definitely in the right territory for the paced runs so.

If the Plan you are on doesn't have any HM pace runs, I wouldn't bother if I were you. Your focus is ion the marathon so stick to that. That said I would be very surprised if you don't crack 1:45 in the Dublin half. The incresed mileage of the Marathon Programme should improve your times over all distances. Just make sure to take an esy week in the build up to the half.

Donal112

menoscemo wrote: »

The incresed mileage of the Marathon Programme should improve your times over all distances. Just make sure to take an esy week in the build up to the half.

Great, will do. Cheers

docjewel

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

Now does anyone have any advise on treating severe chaffing ? (If it's not against the forum charter for medical advice) I am walking like John Wayne !

Prevention is better than cure(although if you can't prevent & you have small kids in the house,try sudocream or bepanthen).
Was a thread earlier in the year where underwear for running & specifically dealing with the chaffing issue,worth a read,those marks & spencers shorts linked are ideal but make sure they are the correct pair as any pairs with the seams will still lead to chaffing on the long runs(I know to from experience:D).
Oh & don't forget the nipples,make sure to cover them up with at least a band aid:P

tang1

docjewel wrote: »

Oh & don't forget the nipples,make sure to cover them up with at least a band aid:P

Not a good idea if you have a hairy chest, quiet painful taking them off!!

rasher_m

tang1 wrote: »

Not a good idea if you have a hairy chest, quiet painful taking them off!!

Just do it fast..think of us ladies having to wax all the time

tang1

rasher_m wrote: »

Just do it fast..think of us ladies having to wax all the time

Misread that first time, was thinking ladies with hairy chests!!

Trampas

very humid out there but got it done but sweated loads.

lets hope the main day isn't like today

rasher_m

tang1 wrote: »

Misread that first time, was thinking ladies with hairy chests!!

haha...I'm sure some do!

career_move

Trampas wrote: »

very humid out there but got it done but sweated loads.

lets hope the main day isn't like today

Ya was a killer of a day. Only the thought of a blank box for me in our google doc got me out the door!

Pacing Mule

Back in from this evenings run. Postponed from this morning because of tiredness and soreness (and nearly postponed again but sucked it up and got on with it tonight)

5.5k done in 35:50 - this was my first run in over 3 weeks that was completed without a walk break. I think I needed that badly as confidence and enthusiasm for this years DCM was starting to wane.

Pacing Mule

Hi guys,

There have been two entries put in the sheet - one last week by "custom" and one this week on the same line by "Barso"

Neither of these names have been active in the thread that I can see. Would you mind letting me know if either / both are you (am trying to figure out if this is the same person / two seperate people or someone messing about)