Chelsea Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2012/2013

amiable

RichT wrote: »

I've never seen a zone score a goal!

Mock what you do not understand

RichT

amiable wrote: »

Mock what you do not understand

You're right I don't understand zonal marking.......

If only there was a clue in the name :rolleyes:

Sgt Pepper 64

GavRedKing wrote: »

Nothing IMO.



I think thats a common misconception. Zonal marking needs strong players attacking the ball as soon as it comes in, with Cahill/Luiz/Ivan/JT/Mikel playing and at least 4 of those will play at any one time we should be grand if we change to Zonal, if.

Liverpool were the exception. Man city have not done so well using it

Heres our Benny on it!

At the Audience with Rafa Benitez last Sunday in Liverpool, some fans wanted to know the true data about marking at set pieces whether the marking is zonal or man to man or a mixture.

In answer to the question, Rafa showed the table below. (The data is provided by Opta).

From the table, it can clearly be seen that, during his time at Liverpool, the team were twice the best in the Premier League at preventing goals from set pieces. During the years under Rafa’s management, they were always in the top 4 at conceding from set pieces except for one season when they fell below this high standard.

During this time, Liverpool were using zonal marking when defending corners and this aroused a lot of debate, yet the figures in the table were never really included in these discussions. All the other teams in the Premier League at the time were mostly using man to man marking and their figures do not show that this type of marking is any better than zonal marking, in fact, in the majority of cases it is shown to be worse. As a comparison, the table also shows Liverpool last season under two different managers when the team changed to man to man marking and they conceded the same amount of goals as in the one poor statistic under Rafa Benitez. Manchester City are currently top of the league and they are using zonal marking.

So what does this data show? As Rafa said at the Empire Theatre on Sunday, it shows that it should not be the system that is blamed for conceding goals at set pieces but it will always depend on the determination, concentration and ability in the air of the players at the moment of delivery of the set piece. The data certainly does not show that one system will always be better than the other. It is about using the right system for the right players at the right time. In fact, at Liverpool the zonal marking evolved through the years under Rafa to take in to consideration the changes in personnel of the team but still maintained the high success rate.

http://www.rafabenitez.com/web/index.php?act=mostrarBlog&id_entrada=32&pag=3&idioma=in

Man City

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/sport/football/manchester_city/s/1593503_roberto-mancini-defends-manchester-city-zonal-marking

This is the blog where Rich T got his " a zone never scores a goal"
He wasnt mocking, just quoting!

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/blog/_/name/tacticsandanalysis/id/225?cc=5739

amiable

RichT wrote: »

You're right I don't understand zonal marking.......

If only there was a clue in the name :rolleyes:

I fail to see what adding rolleyes does to your argument.
You clearly mocked zonal marking as you don't understand it.
Zonal marking was largely successful at Liverpool under Rafa.
You don't see Sky highlighting as often when a goal is scored while defending using man marking.
It seems to have become cool to knock zonal marking without understanding.

amiable

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

This is the blog where Rich T got his " a zone never scores a goal"
He wasnt mocking, just quoting!

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/blog/_/name/tacticsandanalysis/id/225?cc=5739

From that link you posted I found the following interesting

Pep Guardiola built the greatest football side of the modern era at Barcelona, a team that successfully defended zonally at set pieces -- but Guardiola wasn't coaching in England so the topic wasn't such an issue.

Considering the size of the Barcelona team it's an achievement

GavRedKing

I agree Zonal can be a disaster but with the players we have and their aerial ability Zonal would suit them to a degree IMO.

We all know Luiz is likely to switch off and lose a man so why not put him on the front of the 6 yard box attacking the ball coming in, he has less defensive responsibility then and given just how good he and the rest fof the back four are we'd do well with it IMO.

Cahill and Ivan are excellent in the air and JT is a rock too, so we have the element to implement it if Rafa wants to try it.

GavRedKing

amiable wrote: »

From that link you posted I found the following interesting


Considering the size of the Barcelona team it's an achievement

Thats the good point, Barca's biggest and best aerial players would be Pique, Busquets and Puyol now if those three can defend a corner I'm sure Rafa could get our 4 or 5 players up to speed sharpish.

geeky

amiable wrote: »

It seems to have become cool to knock zonal marking without understanding.

As long as I can remember, 'zonal marking' was used by the braindead as a shorthand for any bad defending. I actually think the level of understanding about it is better here than it used to be.

IMO, it works when you have players that genuinely take ownership of their zone and attack the ball. If you don't, you've a load of defenders looking very silly. With Chelsea, I think it would actually be an improvement.

greendom

FIFA have turned down Didier Drogba's request for special permission for a loan move

MaroonAndGreen

Rafa is not such a bad appointment, its obvious that the club had this deal half done in the past few days, and I think that even if we beat Juve, RDM was still gona be sacked!

Hopefully Torres might get a lift from having Rafa back, and that it will aid our other Spaniards, especially Romeu and Azpi..

Time will tell how we fare, I have nothing against Rafa, but still not over the moon, just content at the moment til we see how the games go.

grumpymunster

What is it with Warnock he seems to have a fixation with Chelsea and knocking us, God I hope we absolutely stuff them senseless in the league cup.

Why would Robbie be relieved he was fired from Chelsea, he loves the place and the fans loved him. He is a legend here.

I suppose Warnock has never been liked anywhere he has been so would not understand I guess.


http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/sport/leeds-united/latest-whites-news/leeds-united-di-matteo-should-be-delighted-warnock-1-5158497

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

amiable

geeky wrote: »

As long as I can remember, 'zonal marking' was used by the braindead as a shorthand for any bad defending. I actually think the level of understanding about it is better here than it used to be.

IMO, it works when you have players that genuinely take ownership of their zone and attack the ball. If you don't, you've a load of defenders looking very silly. With Chelsea, I think it would actually be an improvement.

Same can be said about man marking

amiable

grumpymunster wrote: »

What is it with Warnock he seems to have a fixation with Chelsea and knocking us, God I hope we absolutely stuff them senseless in the league cup.

Why would Robbie be relieved he was fired from Chelsea, he loves the place and the fans loved him. He is a legend here.

I suppose Warnock has never been liked anywhere he has been so would not understand I guess.


http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/sport/leeds-united/latest-whites-news/leeds-united-di-matteo-should-be-delighted-warnock-1-5158497

Warnock has a fixation with everyone I'm afraid and Chelsea are not unique

GavRedKing

Aaaahhh Warnock, one of the only managers I genuinely dont like and hope nothing but failure on, he is good though and deflecting drama from his team and performances onto himself, like Jose, without the suave, ability or record.

That league cup game will be interesting to say the least though.

what a day

In theory zonal marking is brilliant but it can be hard to perfect some times and as mentioned above, if you mark man on man it comes down to who ever is the hungriest for the ball and attacks it. I hate to see defenders stand there waiting on the ball to reach their head to nod it away, "attack the F*@KING BALL" get it away at all costs.

GavRedKing

what a day wrote: »

In theory zonal marking is brilliant but it can be hard to perfect some times and as mentioned above, if you mark man on man it comes down to who ever is the hungriest for the ball and attacks it. I hate to see defenders stand there waiting on the ball to reach their head to nod it away, "attack the F*@KING BALL" get it away at all costs.

With Cahill and Ivan we've 2 excellent attackers of the ball, both will rarely lose an aerial dual, JT and Luiz are both good in the air too.

Lets all move to Zonal. :cool:

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Chucky the tree

Phoenix wrote: »

How will Rafa be an improvement over RDM?can any one give me reasons why

he knows something about tactics.

GavRedKing

Benitez told Sky Sports News: 'You know, the fans they always want the same as the manager, to win games and to win titles.'
The 52-year-old said he would take 'one game at a time' but was confident of delivering.
He added: 'I think it is a top side. You can challenge for trophies when you are in a top side.'
Zenden's father, Pierre, earlier told Voetbal International his son was on his way to Chelsea.
'He was approached on Wednesday by Benitez and is now on a flight,' he said

Brillant :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

GavRedKing

Phoenix wrote: »

How will Rafa be an improvement over RDM?can any one give me reasons why

He has a good proven record and hes a huge step up tactically over RDM who was a little naive at times IMO.

Hes not the favourite but hopefully he'll let his team do the talking.

what a day

Gav your gonna hate me but im not Ivans biggest fan at CB, for me he looses his marker far too many times and i prefere him at RB. He is good in the air but for me his concentration can go missing on occasion. Now Terry, he is in a class of his own i dont need to explain what he will do. I agree with giving Luiz the role of attacking the ball in the 6yard zone, make it his own, could work ot great for him.

what a day

TBF Dimatteo made some wonderfull tactical desisions during his spell in charge wether it be in his starting line up or subs he pulled off some great calls!!

GavRedKing

what a day wrote: »

Gav your gonna hate me but im not Ivans biggest fan at CB, for me he looses his marker far too many times and i prefere him at RB. He is good in the air but for me his concentration can go missing on occasion. Now Terry, he is in a class of his own i dont need to explain what he will do. I agree with giving Luiz the role of attacking the ball in the 6yard zone, make it his own, could work ot great for him.

I'd agree with ya, he hasnt played at CB enough to be considered to play there IMO.

He may struggle to play at RB under Rafa as I rekon Azp offers more going forward then Ivan but Ivan is for the moment a better FB as hes more defensively sound but Azp has looked good when hes played.

what a day

GavRedKing wrote: »

I'd agree with ya, he hasnt played at CB enough to be considered to play there IMO.

He may struggle to play at RB under Rafa as I rekon Azp offers more going forward then Ivan but Ivan is for the moment a better FB as hes more defensively sound but Azp has looked good when hes played.

You mentioned how you think Rami wil start at RM against city but Rafa being spanish he may play the same squad DiMatteo played against Juv but obviously play Torres up front

Id imagine he will play

Cech
Ivan Luiz Cahill Cole
Mikel Ramires/Oscar
Azpilicueta Mata Hazard
Torres

GavRedKing

He could do that, but what ever he does I just hope it involved Mata, Hazard & Torres all on the pitch together.

If Vinny is out for City we'll be in with a big chance anyway, I still fancy us, more so then when RDM was in charge because if he had dropeed Danny or Torres against City we would have been beaten easily enough IMO.

Johner

Sad to see Di Matteo go but if we are being realistic he was never the man for the job. He is part of one of the best moments in the clubs history and nothing can change that, hes a Chelsea legend.

Rafa is a good manager, very interested to see what he can do with Chelsea.

what a day

I think we have a better chance of beating City now because we have a new manager and will give the players a kick in the pipe to get going and play better. Only thing is Rafa wont have much time to prepair for this game and im sure he will play ten men behind the ball for this one and look to counter. (and rightly so).

We will need speed and tecnical ablity up front to beat City as they can be though to sore against but with the holy trinity and if kompany is out we should have the upper hand, only problem is can we defend better???? i think we can and will.

Im not a Rafa fan but i hope he proves me wrong, with this squad he should be at least finishing in the top 4 IMO.

GavRedKing

Rafa had a nice long flight back from Abu Dhabi to plan out what he was going to do for the week and the game.

Theres little he can do on the training ground but if he has a plan made out and I'm sure he has he can get the players well ready for Sunday, if it was a Saturday game I'd be worried but the extra day will allow him to work on the basics.

As I said I cant see him changing much but he'll know who he wants to play and how.

what a day

On twitter Rafa had his first training session with our lads today and will have a press confrence live on CTV tonight at 5.30.

On another note Conner Clifford and Todd kane to get loan moves.

Weird seen Rafa in blue!!

solarith

what a day wrote: »

You mentioned how you think Rami wil start at RM against city but Rafa being spanish he may play the same squad DiMatteo played against Juv but obviously play Torres up front

Id imagine he will play

Cech
Ivan Luiz Cahill Cole
Mikel Ramires/Oscar
Azpilicueta Mata Hazard
Torres

Oscar has no work rate off the ball and no physical presence, what's the point in having him in a DM position?

GavRedKing

http://www.chelseafc.com/news-article/article/2988339/title/benitez-takes-training

The Spaniard arrived at the training ground at around lunchtime, and met with staff and players before joining them outside, where he took control of a high-intensity practice ahead of Sunday's Barclays Premier League fixture against Manchester City at Stamford Bridge

GavRedKing

solarith wrote: »

Oscar has no work rate off the ball and no physical presence, what's the point in having him in a DM position?

Playmaker? Like Xavi and Pirlo who play from deep positions, all he has to do is close people down while Ramires puts the boot in and the other players support him a Ramires/Oscar combination could work but only in games when we'll dominate, I think playing him against City would be suicide but something that should be considered for the future.

Sgt Pepper 64

solarith wrote: »

Oscar has no work rate off the ball and no physical presence, what's the point in having him in a DM position?

Wrong on both counts, in the first Juve game for example, he shackled Pirlo very well and frequently fights physically for the ball. He also tackles back for Brazil

But a DM he aint

Caveman1

The FA have decided not to puruse the matter of inappropriate language from Mark Clattenburg against Mikel any further.

iregk

I love the old argument of zonal marking is bad and it doesn't work. People that say that tend to be the ones who simply don't understand it. They listen to motd going on about zonal marking and how it doesn't work and all the standard stock comments that come rolling out of hansens mouth to suit the argument. It's a tired argument at this stage that has no statistical basis. Panel dummies on tv shows like man marking as it's easy to discuss. Look Gary, he's left his man there it's his fault that's whey they conceded that goal. Zonal throws up something that they've probably never played with so don't actually know how it works. That confuses them so it's much easier to say zonal marking doesn't work so why do teams persist with it.

Here is a point for you though. Every week goals are conceded by teams that play man marking systems. I never hear anyone complain about man marking though.

The great Milan side of the Baresi days played zonal marking and were considered the greatest defense that was ever assembled. Zonal marking works perfectly when players do their job. When they don't it falls apart.

Techless

what a day wrote: »

On twitter Rafa had his first training session with our lads today and will have a press confrence live on CTV tonight at 5.30.

On another note Conner Clifford and Todd kane to get loan moves.

Weird seen Rafa in blue!![/QUOTE]

True, it does seem strange and not a natural fit, but will give him the benefit of the doubt and see how he gets on.
It will be interesting to see how he will manage some of the egos, especially when it seems widely believed that he is only a stop gap appointment.
As for RDM, he appears to have handled the whole early morning sacking debacle with his usual classiness and wish him the best in the future.
Thanks for the memories Robbie.

amiable

Mikel can probably expect a lengthy ban if the rumours of what he said to the referee are true

solarith

http://bit.ly/SPom9y (goals from other night)

Goal 1 - Oscar in DM position makes a half assed tackle and doesn't track when ball is lost. Ramires attempts to close down a player and falls over!

Goal 3 - Ramires attempts to close down, but just stands off and does nothing and allows ball to be played through. Ram is a workhorse but he isn't a good DM.

Gonzovision

solarith wrote: »

http://bit.ly/SPom9y (goals from other night)

Goal 1 - Oscar in DM position makes a half assed tackle and doesn't track when ball is lost. Ramires attempts to close down a player and falls over!

Goal 3 - Ramires attempts to close down, but just stands off and does nothing and allows ball to be played through. Ram is a workhorse but he isn't a good DM.

He's not a DM at all really. Pure box to box player

GavRedKing

amiable wrote: »

Mikel can probably expect a lengthy ban if the rumours of what he said to the referee are true

Which are? I presume it relates to the aftermath when a few people went to Clattenburgs changing room and confronted him?

grumpymunster

amiable wrote: »

Mikel can probably expect a lengthy ban if the rumours of what he said to the referee are true

If what is reported in the papers is true then he deserves a lengthy ban.

Overall this was always likely to be the outcome some common sense at last.

Johner

Benitez press conference starting now on Chelsea TV.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Leiva

Phoenix wrote: »

http://www.hasrobertodimatteobeensackedyet.com/
Still hasn't been updated!

What does Roberto Di Matteo and a Ladyboy have in common?
Two cups and the sack.

Caveman1

Some people want bans handed out just for the sake of it, As far as we know Mikel was told that a referee called him a monkey, what way do you expect him to react? I'm not justifying what he allegedly said or done but I would have sympathy for the lad given the circumstances.

GavRedKing

Leiva wrote: »

What does Roberto Di Matteo and a Ladyboy have in common?
Two cups and the sack.

Aaah jaysus.

:pac:

RichT

Successful first press conference......

I now know the correct pronunciation of Azpilicueta.

Caveman1

Lads anyone fancy chipping in and we pay a prostitute to set up Wayne Rooney or something, we need a new scandal quick, getting sick of all this carry on with Chelsea :pac:

MUSEIST

Good first presser by Rafa:)