Irish Rail Fine

Alii.love.

Hey, I just have a quick question.
Last Thursday I bought an open return train ticket in Dublin to go to Cork.
It was a student return and it cost 30euro.
I used the ticket that day. I went back up to Dublin with a friend by car on the Sunday.
Then yesterday I used my return ticket to go from Dublin to Cork.
My ticket was valid until May 19th.
So I got on the train in Dublin no problem, the ticket inspector came around, I showed her my ticket and valid student travel card she said the ticket was not valid, as I used it to go from Dublin to Cork twice instead of Dublin to Cork and then Cork to Dublin.
I told her that I didn't know that this wasn't allowed and I thought I was able to use my return ticket twice between Cork and Dublin. I apologised and offered to pay for a new ticket. I was shocked when she issued me a fine of 160euro and confiscated my return ticket.
I made an honest mistake, I had paid for a ticket and wasn't trying to defraud anyone.
I read through the 'Passenger Information Fixed Penalty Payments' guide online and my situation wasn't mentioned as a reason for receiving a fine.
So my question is should I write a letter and try to appeal and if that fails I'll pay the fine or should the fine or just pay the fine now?
Thanks.

nuac

I havent looked up the Ts and Cs, but this seems draconian action by some jobsworth.

Get n your appeal

Predalien

I'd appeal anyway, but in fairness a condition of a return ticket is normally that it can only be used in each direction once, it's not a two trip ticket, the inspector probably thought the return journey had never been checked and you were just chancing your arm.

Predalien

Alii.love. wrote: »

my situation wasn't mentioned as a reason for receiving a fine.
.

You were on the train without a valid ticket.

Alii.love.

Predalien, it lists what is considered an invalid ticket and my situation isn't listed.
Also, they'd be able to see that I hadn't used this ticket twice before as the ticket wouldn't have been scanned through the machines you put your ticket in when you get off the train to leave Hueston. I know I'm in the wrong but 160euro is steep for a genuine mistake.

schemingbohemia

do you think the same thing would wash with ryanair? it's a return ticket, it's not a double single ticket.

you have been appropriately fined and should pay, your appeal will fail.

there are plenty of threads in the commuting & transport thread on the inability of students to understand the most basic of requirements.

RangeR

Alii.love. wrote: »

Predalien, it lists what is considered an invalid ticket and my situation isn't listed.
Also, they'd be able to see that I hadn't used this ticket twice before as the ticket wouldn't have been scanned through the machines you put your ticket in when you get off the train to leave Hueston. I know I'm in the wrong but 160euro is steep for a genuine mistake.

Appeal the fine, but I wouldn't be hopeful.

Alii.love.

schemingbohemia, this is my second time getting the train that is why I didn't know. I normally get the bus, which entitles you to two journeys between Cork and Dublin.
I going to appeal and if it fails I'll just pay, worth a try.

paky

funny how irish rail seem to think theyre in a position to fine people when they provide such a s1t service. i'd take that ticket and flush it down the toilet and say to them 'until your services improve and i may consider paying it but until then get fcuked'!

Alii.love.

If they had an issue with my ticket, I don't know why the guy at the gates let me on the train in the first place. He didn't exactly look at it in detail think he was just checking everyone had a ticket! If he had said it was invalid I could have just went and bought a new one and boarded the next train

charlemont

paky wrote: »

funny how irish rail seem to think theyre in a position to fine people when they provide such a s1t service. i'd take that ticket and flush it down the toilet and say to them 'until your services improve and i may consider paying it but until then get fcuked'!

Exactly what I'd do too. Overpriced useless and slow service.

Indricotherium

paky wrote: »

funny how irish rail seem to think theyre in a position to fine people when they provide such a s1t service. i'd take that ticket and flush it down the toilet and say to them 'until your services improve and i may consider paying it but until then get fcuked'!

Good idea. Appeal to some higher sense of natural justice, the service provided in some services is less than expected so you feel you shouldn't have to comply with the terms and conditions of others.

This is an interesting approach and I would be interested to hear the result should the OP decide on it as a basis for his appeal.

jawn

I know it sucks, but you broke the rules. Ignorance of the rules isn't an excuse for not abiding by them.

Irish Rail defines an 'open return ticket' as: "[v]alid for the one outward journey for the date shown on the ticket and for one return journey in the opposite direction within 30 days of the date shown on ticket."

Even though you may not have even seen this stipulation, because you boarded the train, you have accepted this as part of the contract. That term was breached and you were fined.

Again, it sucks, but just pay the fine and learn from it

secretambition

I agree that you broke the terms and conditions. However, I would still write to them apologizing and pointing out that the member of their staff who checked your ticket at the gate in a way OKed what you were doing by letting you on. I mean it could have been that you were unsure about your ticket and were expecting this man to turn you away if there was a problem with it, however by examining your ticket and waving you on, he gave you the impression that everything was fine. Surely, an Irishrail staff member is presumed to have greater knowledge of the rules than you.

I'm not at all sure this will work, but nothing to lose.

BornToKill

It was a return ticket. What's not to understand?

Predalien

Alii.love. wrote: »

Predalien, it lists what is considered an invalid ticket and my situation isn't listed.
Also, they'd be able to see that I hadn't used this ticket twice before as the ticket wouldn't have been scanned through the machines you put your ticket in when you get off the train to leave Hueston. I know I'm in the wrong but 160euro is steep for a genuine mistake.

You didn't have a valid ticket, I'm fairly sure that's in the terms and conditions. I agree the fine is steep, it says on the website the fine is €100 + the fare for the trip so maybe you've been overcharged, as others have said try apologising and maybe try to negotiate the amount of the fine.

jblack

there's a previous thread on this where the OP even gives his outcome.

paky

jblack wrote: »

there's a previous thread on this where the OP even gives his outcome.

is he trapped in a time warp or something?

jblack

the OP of that thread - quite obviously.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056349060

castie

Seems a straight forward appeal to me.

You were allowed on the train after your ticket had been checked by an Irish Rail offical.

Then on the train this decision was changed by the ticket inspector.

I would appeal on the basis of that.
They cant change their mind half way through the journey.

Gannicus

Alii.love. wrote: »

If they had an issue with my ticket, I don't know why the guy at the gates let me on the train in the first place. He didn't exactly look at it in detail think he was just checking everyone had a ticket! If he had said it was invalid I could have just went and bought a new one and boarded the next train

appeal it in that basis under a contract ie the acceptance section.

the guy at the gate took your ticket and let you onto the platform to get said train and

1. Offer (they offered to sell a ticket)
2. Mutual Consent to Create a Legal Relationship (you buy the ticket to gain usage of the train service
3. Consideration (do you want the ticket at that price)
4. Acceptance (they agree to take your money in exchange for the ticket and usage of their service & the guy at the gate took the tickt looked at it and let you onto the platform and train)

or

As was stated already state the ticket was checked and that it was the negligence on behalf of Irish Rail for not doing their job properly and letting you on with an invalid ticket and had you been advised that the ticket was invalid you would have bought a new one.

do not admit you were in the wrong in anyway shape or form in the appeal. you acted based on information and services provided to you and that Irish Rail are in the wrong for fining you as a result of their negligence.

Gannicus

schemingbohemia wrote: »

do you think the same thing would wash with ryanair? it's a return ticket, it's not a double single ticket.

you have been appropriately fined and should pay, your appeal will fail.

there are plenty of threads in the commuting & transport thread on the inability of students to understand the most basic of requirements.

Do you think that ryanair would let you through the gate and onto the flight. no. the o/p was let through the get and onto the platform and train.

BornToKill

Big Steve wrote: »

appeal it in that basis under a contract ie the acceptance section.

the guy at the gate took your ticket and let you onto the platform to get said train and

1. Offer (they offered to sell a ticket)
2. Mutual Consent to Create a Legal Relationship (you buy the ticket to gain usage of the train service
3. Consideration (do you want the ticket at that price)
4. Acceptance (they agree to take your money in exchange for the ticket and usage of their service & the guy at the gate took the tickt looked at it and let you onto the platform and train)

I'm thinking that you can't be serious about contract law giving legitimate grounds for appeal in these circumstances. The contract was formed back when the OP purchased his ticket. Irish Rail advertise a return ticket subject to certain conditions. The OP makes an offer agreeing to abide by the conditions. This is accepted by Irish Rail and consideration in the form of the price of the ticket changes hands. That is the formation of the contract, not when a gatekeeper allowed the OP on to the platform.

It used to be the case and maybe it still is that anyone could go on to the platform as long as they had a ticket. You could even buy a platform ticket so as to accompany someone to the train. If the employee at the gate had the job of checking all the tickets for validity then why bother to have someone on the train doing the same job?

The OP can and probably should write asking for leniency but there are no grounds under contract law for the appeal.

Gannicus

BornToKill wrote: »

I'm thinking that you can't be serious about contract law giving legitimate grounds for appeal in these circumstances.

I thought it might be a very outside shot but wasn't overly confident it would be good grounds

Procrastastudy

castie wrote: »

Seems a straight forward appeal to me.

You were allowed on the train after your ticket had been checked by an Irish Rail offical.

Then on the train this decision was changed by the ticket inspector.

I would appeal on the basis of that.
They cant change their mind half way through the journey.

Why? It's the OP's responsibility to check the ticket is valid. The guys at the gate are doing a quick check to make sure everyone has tickets - its obvious that 100 boarding at Heuston are not going to be checked as thoughly as when they're all sat down having a €4.50 coffee.

As for the guy being a jobsworth - I think jobsworth-alot-more-than-it-was-4-years-ago might be a better if less catchy title. The inspector is employed to check tickets - who knows what their discretion is like. Who knows if the OP was rude or given the option to get off at the next stop?

Having said all that an appeal seems the right way to go. You'll be relying on giving someone a good laugh or convincing them you really were that stupid! BTW I say that in the knowledge we are all incredibly stupid when itcomes to different things - doesn't mean we can't have giggle at your expence though!

Alii.love.

BornToKill, I obviously understand that now, but I normally get the bus which allows you to you the ticket twice between the two destinations. I now know that the train rules are different.

cml387

Alii.love. wrote: »

BornToKill, I obviously understand that now, but I normally get the bus which allows you to you the ticket twice between the two destinations. I now know that the train rules are different.

On Bus Eireann???

Alii.love.

GCDLawstudent, I wasn't given the option to get off the train at the next stop as the next stop was the last stop. I wasn't rude as you would receive an additional 50euro fine if you were.

Alii.love.

cml387, haven't travelled to Dublin on bus Eireann so not sure. I was talking about Aircoach

Indricotherium

Big Steve wrote: »

Alii.love. wrote: »

If they had an issue with my ticket, I don't know why the guy at the gates let me on the train in the first place. He didn't exactly look at it in detail think he was just checking everyone had a ticket! If he had said it was invalid I could have just went and bought a new one and boarded the next train

appeal it in that basis under a contract ie the acceptance section.

the guy at the gate took your ticket and let you onto the platform to get said train and

1. Offer (they offered to sell a ticket)
2. Mutual Consent to Create a Legal Relationship (you buy the ticket to gain usage of the train service
3. Consideration (do you want the ticket at that price)
4. Acceptance (they agree to take your money in exchange for the ticket and usage of their service & the guy at the gate took the tickt looked at it and let you onto the platform and train)

or

As was stated already state the ticket was checked and that it was the negligence on behalf of Irish Rail for not doing their job properly and letting you on with an invalid ticket and had you been advised that the ticket was invalid you would have bought a new one.

do not admit you were in the wrong in anyway shape or form in the appeal. you acted based on information and services provided to you and that Irish Rail are in the wrong for fining you as a result of their negligence.

This is 100% nonsense.

There is no contract issue at all here.

The op was on a train with no valid ticket. Open / shut.

Procrastastudy

Alii.love. wrote: »

GCDLawstudent, I wasn't given the option to get off the train at the next stop as the next stop was the last stop. I wasn't rude as you would receive an additional 50euro fine if you were.

Now we know. A polite appeal seems the best way forward. Legally you were in the wrong. As I say you might just convince someone. I heard a great one the other day about a 19 year old intern somewhere asking why the company kept putting 'stickers' on to the mail. Someone politely had to explain what 'stamps' were!

jawn

The idea of being fined an extra €50 for being rude made me spit my milk everywhere.

Paz-CCFC

Do ticket inspectors have the power to arrest those who have invalid tickets and don't give their name?

jblack

Alii.love. wrote: »

GCDLawstudent, I wasn't given the option to get off the train at the next stop as the next stop was the last stop. I wasn't rude as you would receive an additional 50euro fine if you were.

Please would you explain the basis for receiving an extra €50 for being rude.

Indricotherium

jblack wrote: »

Alii.love. wrote: »

GCDLawstudent, I wasn't given the option to get off the train at the next stop as the next stop was the last stop. I wasn't rude as you would receive an additional 50euro fine if you were.

Please would you explain the basis for receiving an extra €50 for being rude.

It's part of the policy if you are rude or don't cooperate there is an extra fine.

TBH I don't know why anyone gives a real name to those inspectors.

Any halfway plausible name / address combo should satisfy them if they are a "jobs worth" as some seem to think.

odds_on

Alii.love. wrote: »

GCDLawstudent, I wasn't given the option to get off the train at the next stop as the next stop was the last stop. I wasn't rude as you would receive an additional 50euro fine if you were.

So you knew that there is a 50 euro fine for being rude (which I didn't know) but you don't know what a return ticket means! IMHO, some intelligent students about, these days.
Reminds me of the student who got thrown off a train in Scotland a few months ago by another passenger for not having a valid ticket.

Alii.love.

odds_on wrote: »

So you knew that there is a 50 euro fine for being rude (which I didn't know) but you don't know what a return ticket means! IMHO, some intelligent students about, these days.
Reminds me of the student who got thrown off a train in Scotland a few months ago by another passenger for not having a valid ticket.

I knew about the 50euro fine for being rude because I asked her why she ticked the 100euro fine box and not the 50euro fine thinking that there were two different types of fine.
Anyway as I explained things are different on the bus, I don't get the train often that's why I didn't know.
This isn't to do with my question and I've got my answer now.

jblack

I have never seen a clause in a contract allowing an extra fine for being rude, and would be very interested to see the construction of a contract that allows an employee to determine a liquidated penalty based on a highly subjective occurrence.

I'd imagine such a clause would be annihilated by a lawyer in Court.

ted1

The price difference between a single and return ticket is negligible if not the same. The inspector is correct. The train has to make the return trip to take the train back to go over again, by the op avoiding the return leg and starting. New trip Irish rail are losing out heavily, as they now have no way of covering the cost of bringing the train back to cork.

Procrastastudy

How is this different on the bus? Returns on buses work in the same way.

Alii.love.

ted1 wrote: »

The price difference between a single and return ticket is negligible if not the same. The inspector is correct. The train has to make the return trip to take the train back to go over again, by the op avoiding the return leg and starting. New trip Irish rail are losing out heavily, as they now have no way of covering the cost of bringing the train back to cork.

I don't really understand what you're saying the ticket was paid for in advance so I did actually pay for the train to back the return trip, but I didn't use it on the return trip.

Well anyway I'm going to stop posting here since I have my answer, going to give them a call and see what they say and then pay the full fine if that's what they tell me to do.
Thanks for all your help guys.

ripcurl105

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2056622647

Procrastastudy

Make sure you follow it up with a letter as its more difficult to ignore.

Victor

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Do ticket inspectors have the power to arrest those who have invalid tickets and don't give their name?

Some do.

jblack wrote: »

I have never seen a clause in a contract allowing an extra fine for being rude

Contract, what contract? We're talking statutory powers.

ted1 wrote: »

The price difference between a single and return ticket is negligible if not the same. The inspector is correct. The train has to make the return trip to take the train back to go over again, by the op avoiding the return leg and starting. New trip Irish rail are losing out heavily, as they now have no way of covering the cost of bringing the train back to cork.

Ted, I thought Dougal was the confused one.

nasa1982

Alii.love. wrote: »

Predalien, it lists what is considered an invalid ticket and my situation isn't listed.
Also, they'd be able to see that I hadn't used this ticket twice before as the ticket wouldn't have been scanned through the machines you put your ticket in when you get off the train to leave Hueston. I know I'm in the wrong but 160euro is steep for a genuine mistake.

im working in heuston and sometimes gate its just open
u need to pay that fine if u want to take any bill phone ..

nasa1982

Big Steve wrote: »

appeal it in that basis under a contract ie the acceptance section.

the guy at the gate took your ticket and let you onto the platform to get said train and

1. Offer (they offered to sell a ticket)
2. Mutual Consent to Create a Legal Relationship (you buy the ticket to gain usage of the train service
3. Consideration (do you want the ticket at that price)
4. Acceptance (they agree to take your money in exchange for the ticket and usage of their service & the guy at the gate took the tickt looked at it and let you onto the platform and train)

or

As was stated already state the ticket was checked and that it was the negligence on behalf of Irish Rail for not doing their job properly and letting you on with an invalid ticket and had you been advised that the ticket was invalid you would have bought a new one.

do not admit you were in the wrong in anyway shape or form in the appeal. you acted based on information and services provided to you and that Irish Rail are in the wrong for fining you as a result of their negligence.

its your own responsibility to have valid ticker before u bording the train!
end off story

schemingbohemia

Big Steve wrote: »

Do you think that ryanair would let you through the gate and onto the flight. no. the o/p was let through the get and onto the platform and train.

I've seen people getting past the ryanair line ticket checker and then being called back by their friend because their ticket was for milan not dublin!

schemingbohemia

Alii.love. wrote: »

cml387, haven't travelled to Dublin on bus Eireann so not sure. I was talking about Aircoach

Aircoach don't allow it either, seems you've been chancing your arm all over the place.

Alii.love.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Aircoach don't allow it either, seems you've been chancing your arm all over the place.

1.Aircoach definitely do!!! I asked them last Thursday when I was getting the bus!!!! 2. It says it on their website!!!!

Procrastastudy

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I've seen people getting past the ryanair line ticket checker and then being called back by their friend because their ticket was for milan not dublin!

I've seen a couple ran from one plane to another. Funnily enough was either to or from Dublin flight and they were meant to be on a Milan flight too.

BornToKill

... wrote:

3. Consideration (do you want the ticket at that price).

Ha ha that's pretty funny actually.

Umm let me consider if I want to pay that much ...