Whats normal procedure (No money at restaurant CC machine broken)

Skid

Disgraceful behaviour by the Restaurant, and not much better by the Gardaí (who treated the incident as a joke).

That waiter has assaulted you and he has no business dealing with customers in such a thuggish manner.

I would suggest seeing a Solicitor and getting advice on whether you have grounds for taking action against the Waiter for assault and/or defamation.

dudara

I would forget the defamation - because it doesn't sound like there was an accusation of non-payment. Defamation is a subjective matter and harder to prove.

But there definitely was detention of his person, and I take that far more seriously. In addition, they wasted Gardaí time for a civil (not criminal) matter.

rainbowdrop

wmpdd3 wrote: »

If this happens in a petrol station, we let the customer off with the petrol and we take a copy of their id and get them to give their name and address. We agree that the person will pay within 3 days, after that we pass the details to the police. Its usually just one banks cards that stop working, so we put up signs as apposed to closing.

Happened to my friend in a garage (that she's a regular customer of) a few weeks ago. She had put €20 worth of diesel into her car, and when she went in to pay with her laser card, the machine wasn't working. She offered to drive to the nearest banklink (a mile away) and get the money, but no way would the member of staff let her. They told her to leave the car and walk to the banklink, which she couldn't do because she had her 2 children aged 4months and 5years old with her. Luckily, after 5mins of arguing, someone she knew came into the shop and paid the €20 for her.

She was disgusted by this (left a sour taste in my mouth too, as I am also a regular customer of that garage), and went back to complain to the owner the following day. The owner apologised and said that the person who had refused to let her drive to the banklink to get money was a new member of staff and had been afraid to let her go in case they got into trouble.

She's vowed to never buy fuel there again though, as it wasn't her fault the laser machine was broken, yet she was made to feel like a criminal.

ibarelycare

OP are you going to take any action on this?

Zab

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I prefered not to do that because breaking a grab is kind of escalation and I didn't want to make things worse, or even if they were to escort me to the ATM it would have been grand.

I'm having a hard time with the waiter holding your arm for half an hour. Did you ask him to take his hands off you?

slimjimmc

dudara wrote: »

I would forget the defamation - because it doesn't sound like there was an accusation of non-payment. Defamation is a subjective matter and harder to prove.

Defamation would depend on who else was present (the waiter would suffice I guess), but it appears there may indeed have been an accusation of non-payment

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Anyway I sat there for about an half an hour with one of the waiters gripping tightly onto my arm before the manger walked up to me with two members of An Garda Siochana in tow spluttering about me refusing to pay.

.

dudara wrote: »

But there definitely was detention of his person, and I take that far more seriously. In addition, they wasted Gardaí time for a civil (not criminal) matter.

Agreed.
The only legal grounds (S4 Criminal Law Act 1997) the restaurant had for physically detaining the OP was if they reasonably believed he committed an arrestable offence carrying a 5 yr prison term (such as theft) AND was trying to dodge the Gardaí.
However the OP clearly states he did not refuse to pay, in which case no theft was committed, and the detention, imo, was unlawful. The debt is a civil matter and the Gardaí should not have been involved.

EKRIUQ

Sorry but this sounds like an Indian or Chinese restaurant to me, tell me if I'm wrong.

face1990

I think there's some grounds for defamation. The defamation laws here are quite vague, but quite open to interpretation. I don't remember the exact wording, but if what was done to you is likely to lower you in the eyes of a right-thinking member of society, then it's defamation.

Personally, I'd be inclined to think lesser of a person who I saw being held in a restaurant until the gardai arrived (the staff might not have made an open accusation against you, but it probably would have been implied to other customers that you had refused to pay).
It's very subjective though, and depends on whether a solicitor would be bothered trying to argue for it, and if a judge felt it was defamatory.

Either way, they had no right to hold you there especially when it was their fault you couldn't pay up immediately.

Let us know how it goes!

abouttobebanned

Don't see why he's not allowed name the restaurant. People complain about supermarkets and phone companies and all sorts on here and that's allowed. People also give very negative restaurant reviews and that's allowed.

dixiefly

This is not something that you should let rest. I would write a letter to the restaurant. If the restaurant is affiliated to any association I would send a copy to them and also to any local chamber of commerce.

If it was me I would also describe my experience on Trip Advisor.

sandin

Gerard93 wrote: »

A CC machine breaking down sounds ridiculous, my experience with them and we've been using the electronic ones for years and never had trouble with same.
However on an ocassion that a machine is not working, a retail outlet should have a manual imprinter (issued by Credit card Terminal supplier), they can manual imprint your card details on a voucher and then phone for card authorisation, customer signs the voucher gets a copy.

When Credit Card terminal comes back online the voucher is put through by entering card details etc., or far as I am aware it is still possible to lodge the voucher with a normal lodgement.

Disgraceful carry on by the Restaurant/waiter

The imprinters are no longer issued unless requested.

All the restaurant (or any place that a machine has gone down) needed to do is to write down the card number on a piece of paper + exoiry date and amount. Ask customer to sign it and enter it when the machine is back on line.

the new rules (since about 2009) on credit cards protect the customer (card number and expiry date no use without signature/pin number) and the signature protects the establishment.

In this case the restaurant advertised (via signs) that they take cards, you offered to pay by an acceptable means and they refused. The only thing that would worry me is if the restaurant claimed that they told you that the card machine was broken when you came in. - Possibly the OP did not hear it? or chose not to hear it? and in that instance the restaurant would be correct in detaining him for non payment.

If I were defending the restaurant (being devils advocate here), I'd say that no other customer on the night had an issue and that everyone was informed when they walked in. If they could show that everyone else paid by cash without any issues, then the case could be weakened as its your word against theirs and they would be in stronger position as normally 70% of restaurant meals are settled by card. (streamline merchant processors estimate)

This is why the restaurant cannot be named as we only have the side of the story by the OP and whilst it may be 100% true, the fact that it cannot be confirmed by independent witnesses would leave boards open to a defamation action by the restaurant.

Del2005

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Don't see why he's not allowed name the restaurant. People complain about supermarkets and phone companies and all sorts on here and that's allowed. People also give very negative restaurant reviews and that's allowed.

In case the OP goes legal and since it's not a review but a (potential) criminal act by the restaurant posting here could affect the OPs case as well as leaving Boards open to a liable claim if the OP looses or doesn't pursue the mater.

mad m

When reading this I was totally disgusted at the way the restaurant handled it. And I commend the OP as he seemed to keep his cool...Fair play.

cursai

jor el wrote: »

This is assault and false imprisonment, and you should press criminal charges against them for it. Even if you had intended to leave without paying, they cannot detain you.

If you got the names of the Gardai that called in, then go to their station and make a formal complaint about the manager and waiter, and tell them you wish to press charges.

Also see a solicitor, because you may need legal consultation which you cannot get here.

Also, do not name the restaurant on thread. This kind of allegation cannot be verified by the owners of this site, and as such cannot be allowed, and naming them could seriously prejudice any legal proceedings you may take against them.

They CAN detain you if you are or if someone believes you intending to commit an arrestable offence (theft)http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0004.html#sec4Sub Section 4 states, "(4) An arrest other than by a member of the Garda Síochána may only be effected by a person under subsection (1) or (2) where he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects that the person to be arrested by him or her would otherwise attempt to avoid, or is avoiding, arrest by a member of the Garda Síochána." and hold you until the Gardai arrive.
How do you think security guards operate. But the op wasn't intending they cant detain him. Obviously theres no way of the op proving he wasnt intending to pay. Leaving some some of insurance i.e wallet passport etc should have been enough for the manager.
But they CAN detain you for the Gardai.

sandin

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Don't see why he's not allowed name the restaurant. People complain about supermarkets and phone companies and all sorts on here and that's allowed. People also give very negative restaurant reviews and that's allowed.

Del2005 wrote: »

In case the OP goes legal and since it's not a review but a (potential) criminal act by the restaurant posting here could affect the OPs case as well as leaving Boards open to a liable claim if the OP looses or doesn't pursue the mater.

mad m wrote: »

When reading this I was totally disgusted at the way the restaurant handled it. And I commend the OP as he seemed to keep his cool...Fair play.

All comment here are assuming the OP is telling 100% the truth. There are 2 sides to every story, so unless you have an independent witness to confirm everything, the restaurant CANNOT be named unless you want a libel action against you / boards.

Whilst the OP is probably telling the truth, you have to be so bloody careful when making defamatory remarks against a business and without proof, you are going down an expensive losing path.

daenerysstormborn3

Jeez that's crazy! It's happened me a few times over the years, CC machines not working and that sort of thing and each time I left the establishment (without leaving any sort of security behind me, such as my credit card for example) and either went to an ATM or returned the following day to pay in full. I understand that businesses have to be careful in case they get caught out but being held captive like that is disgraceful.

If it happens at a petrol station I use at least once a week, usually on a Friday, they leave me off until the Monday morning because they know I work in the area but don't live there. If it happens in a pub I get lunch in occasionally (they seem to have ongoing problems with their CC machine) they leave me off until the next time I'm in (which might not be until the following week) just as a courtesy to a regular customer. I know neither of these places are obliged to do this and I'm not saying any establishment is obliged to operate this kind of system but it is of course very much appreciated by me and will encourage me to return time and time again given that they are so accommodating and understanding.

slimjimmc

cursai wrote: »

They CAN detain you if you are or if someone believes you intending to commit an arrestable offence (theft)http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0004.html#sec4Sub Section 4 states, "(4) An arrest other than by a member of the Garda Síochána may only be effected by a person under subsection (1) or (2) where he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects that the person to be arrested by him or her would otherwise attempt to avoid, or is avoiding, arrest by a member of the Garda Síochána." and hold you until the Gardai arrive.
How do you think security guards operate. But the op wasn't intending they cant detain him. Obviously theres no way of the op proving he wasnt intending to pay. Leaving some some of insurance i.e wallet passport etc should have been enough for the manager.
But they CAN detain you for the Gardai.

A private citizen can't detain you for intending to commit the offence. The act requires the offence to be in progress or already committed, AND ,in all cases, you might attempt to avoid arrest by a Garda. The "and" is critical since both conditions must be met.
There was no offence since the OP did offer to return with payment, therefore there were no grounds for detention, imo.

However I can see how it looked to the manager, customer exits to ATM never to be seen again! Whether that suspicion was reasonable at the time under the circumstances is subjective.

Broken Bad

The only way I could see something like that happening was if the customer without cash was making a fuss or gave some intention of not paying at all.

Or the original post is just not true.

cursai

slimjimmc wrote: »

A private citizen can't detain you for intending to commit the offence. The act requires the offence to be in progress or already committed, AND ,in all cases, you might attempt to avoid arrest by a Garda. The "and" is critical since both conditions must be met.
There was no offence since the OP did offer to return with payment, therefore there were no grounds for detention, imo.
However I can see how it looked to the manager, customer exits to ATM never to be seen again! Whether that suspicion was reasonable at the time under the circumstances is subjective.

Exactly that's the operative word how it 'looked' to the manager. Who may have overreacted. But he had reason to believe that the OP was committing the offence or in the process of. Its symantics but an acceptable assumption. if I walk into a shop and take a can of.coke and pass the register towards the door its reasonable to assume im in the process or attempting to committ theft and can be arrested. its not a reasonable defence to tell them im intending to pay and shuffle out towards the door saying I'll be back in a jiffy.
But common sense has to prevail.
I don't know which side was lacking.

cursai

slimjimmc wrote: »

A private citizen can't detain you for intending to commit the offence. The act requires the offence to be in progress or already committed, AND ,in all cases, you might attempt to avoid arrest by a Garda. The "and" is critical since both conditions must be met.
There was no offence since the OP did offer to return with payment, therefore there were no grounds for detention, imo.

However I can see how it looked to the manager, customer exits to ATM never to be seen again! Whether that suspicion was reasonable at the time under the circumstances is subjective.

The act states in the 'act' of committing an arrestable offence. Which includes the intent I think its safe to presume.

Zab

cursai wrote: »

The act states in the 'act' of committing an arrestable offence. Which includes the intent I think its safe to presume.

Seriously?

MOH

cursai wrote: »

The act states in the 'act' of committing an arrestable offence. Which includes the intent I think its safe to presume.

I can't see how intending to do something is the same as being in the act of doing it. Getting into the realms of pre-crime there.

cursai

MOH wrote: »

I can't see how intending to do something is the same as being in the act of doing it. Getting into the realms of pre-crime there.

Im not talking about 'thought' crimes. i mean a reasonable presumption that to give allowances or benefit of doubt to someone who intends to commit a crime would facilitate their evasion of arrest. I think its more a concept based on common sense and would be justifiable enough for a civilian to detains someone. then the proper authorities can decide on the presumed act and whether it facilitates an official arrest or continued detention. as what happened with the op. (if the story is correct). like a lot of crime detection and investigation its based on common sense which is a loose concept but it exists.
its common practice with store thefts but isnt as complicated in real life as it sounds in my in articulate sentences.

brightspark

cursai wrote: »

.........its common practice with store thefts ........

Don't stores normally wait until a thief has left the premises before making accusations?

kbell

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I prefered not to do that because breaking a grab is kind of escalation and I didn't want to make things worse,

I would have broke his jaw had he grabbed me by the arm and refused to let go.

Op i'd pursue this to the bitter end, do not let them get away with this.

ebbsy

I had a restaurant for 8 years.

Credit Card machine out of order - I told the customers before they sat down. No probs there they would run out to get cash. If it was a regular they would drop it in the next time they were passing.

Not a whole lot the guards would do though - its easy to steal from a restaurant but if you stole from a supermarket it would be a whole different ball game. I have been there my friends.

My assessment of this sitaution ? Manager should have gome accross to the atm with the OP. He seems like an honest man to me.

ebbsy

Gerard93 wrote: »

A CC machine breaking down sounds ridiculous, my experience with them and we've been using the electronic ones for years and never had trouble with same.
However on an ocassion that a machine is not working, a retail outlet should have a manual imprinter (issued by Credit card Terminal supplier), they can manual imprint your card details on a voucher and then phone for card authorisation, customer signs the voucher gets a copy.

When Credit Card terminal comes back online the voucher is put through by entering card details etc., or far as I am aware it is still possible to lodge the voucher with a normal lodgement.

Disgraceful carry on by the Restaurant/waiter

If the phone line is not working then the credit card machine may not work either.

Ellis Dee

Gosh, how I wish something like that would happen to me! I'd take them for everything they had, even their Holy Communion money, for illegally detaining me. Creeps like that only get away with it because not enough people take action against them.

mickoneill30

Happened to me a couple of weeks ago. I was paying by CC and the machine wasn't working. After 5 minutes of the manager trying to figure out the manual swipe I said I could pop in the next day with the card or money. His response was "no problem at all, if tomorrows not convenient for you any time over the next few days is fine".

If someone detained me for half an hour because of his problem I'd be explaining my hourly rate to him.

K.Flyer

I always thought that the law was... the leaving or attempting to leave premises without intent to pay... was the basis of the crime. And as the OP went to pay unawares that the cc facility was out of order shows he had intent to pay, (unless it could be proven that the op knew his card would not work). A simple accompanyment to the atm should have resolved the situation. However if on the way to the atm OP takes of running then there is a more difficult situation to deal with.
Maybe the restaurant owners have had a few runners in the past and so over-reacted, not that it justifies their heavy handedness. I would say unlawfull detention and physical assault would be your starting points on a well worded solicitors letter to them demanding an apology and compensation.