The Fiscal Treaty Yes or No

Finnbar01

Cabaal wrote: »

Things will devalue by default if we default and leave the eurozone, they;'ll we'll be out in the big bad world with a currency worth **** all and a import market which is gone to ****e.

So in no time at all oil will go through the roof and so will every other import we have,

Now with all these higher costs (oil and the big knock on affects it has) we'll have a situation where the government can't keep up with the running costs for the country so at that stage it would make sense to cut the largest running cost by far...the social welfare bill.

(think of the country as a company, if you ran a company with such a high output cost you'd look to cut it too).

Now I suppose that the government could cut taxes on oil/petrol etc but then that creates an even bigger shortfall in the budget for the government and regardless of what party is in power they'll be a nice big shortfall and higher interest rates if we go out into the big bad world to seek a loan.

So now we have higher living costs and anyone on social welfare getting hit the hardest....now wasn't that all worth it?
:rolleyes:

How about you come up with a workable solution instead of some anarchists wet dream?

Leaving the eurozone will not be a bed of roses, but it is the only choice that is correct. We are caught between a rock and a hard place. Do you think the best solution is to drag out this recession over the next 5 to 10 years, while squandering billions?

We will be leaving the eurozone anyways, let's do it now and get it over with.

Max Powers wrote: »

This article is a good read on the treaty:

Vote Yes to Brussels and end decades of Irish fiscal ineptitude

DAN O'BRIEN
ECONOMICS : TWO WEEKS ago this column explored the risks of voting No to the fiscal treaty. With the probability of Greece being ejected from the euro zone having risen considerably since, the risks for Ireland, and all weaker peripherals, have become...

So Mr O'Brien wants the Germans to run our country because us Paddies are too thick to do so.

I remember in school (years ago), my history teacher explaining to me that the reason why the English colonised Ireland is that they believed that the Irish were too stupid to manage their own affairs and run a country in a proper manner.

I hate to say it, but it looks like the English may have been right.

Max Powers

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Leaving the eurozone will not be a bed of roses, but it is the only choice that is correct. We are caught between a rock and a hard place. Do you think the best solution is to drag out this recession over the next 5 to 10 years, while squandering billions?

We will be leaving the eurozone anyways, let's do it now and get it over with.



So Mr O'Brien wants the Germans to run our country because us Paddies are too thick to do so.

I remember in school (years ago), my history teacher explaining to me that the reason why the English colonised Ireland is that they believed that the Irish were too stupid to manage their own affairs and run a country in a proper manner.

I hate to say it, but it looks like the English may have been right.

Pretty right there but I dont think we are too thick Finbarr, all in all I think Irish people are good people. HOWEVER, our politicians have been in general a bunch of complete wasters since approximately the 50s. (Before the war and after foundation of free state, the place was ran with survival in mind i.e the country was doing everything to prove to everyone that we could and would manage our own affairs.) Since then, we have a bunch of self-serving, parish pump, incompetent bufoons in charge.

insight_man

Remember the safety valve when you go to vote later today:

If you don't know Vote No.

We will come back to this treaty again in a few months time when the Gremans and French have agreed what will be in the final version. We shouldn't accept what is basically the 'first draft'.

Lastly a country can join the treaty countries At Any Time in the future once it agrees to the rules at that time. This is Not a one shot game.

Safety First:
If you don't know, Vote No.

sandin

insight_man wrote: »

Remember the safety valve when you go to vote later today:

If you don't know Vote No.

.

Thankfully I have a reasonable standard of education like most Irish people and also thankfully the issue has been well explained and therefore I have no doubts that this treaty is good for Ireland and will prevent any government over spending to buy an election again.

Therefore, I know and I have voted yes and I predict a 64% yes vote with the usual uneduacated sheep following SF hotspots saying no.

ROCKMAN

sandin wrote: »

Thankfully I have a reasonable standard of education like most Irish people and also thankfully the issue has been well explained and therefore I have no doubts that this treaty is good for Ireland and will prevent any government over spending to buy an election again.

Therefore, I know and I have voted yes and I predict a 64% yes vote with the usual uneduacated sheep following SF hotspots saying no.

Its crap like this that really annoys me , Maybe the swell in support for SF is more to do with the lack of confidence in the present leaders and their tactics and very little to do with the lack of education , As for the treaty I think we should not be voting on it at the moment especially voting Yes ,We should be waiting till after its ratified by Germany and France. Would you sign an unfinished contract ???

Ps before calling people uneducated learn how to spell.

Bards

sandin wrote: »

Thankfully I have a reasonable standard of education like most Irish people and also thankfully the issue has been well explained and therefore I have no doubts that this treaty is good for Ireland and will prevent any government over spending to buy an election again.

Therefore, I know and I have voted yes and I predict a 64% yes vote with the usual uneduacated sheep following SF hotspots saying no.

Are you calling David McWilliams uneducated?




http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-mcwilliams/david-mcwilliams-the-fiscal-treaty-will-only-make-things-worse-3123628.html

Backstreet Moyes

Does anybody know if you can vote if you go down with your passport. Cant find my registration papaers so not registered.

Hijpo

You dont need a card just bring a form of photo ID as far as i know

ROCKMAN

Nuts102 wrote: »

Does anybody know if you can vote if you go down with your passport. Cant find my registration papaers so not registered.

Just been to vote and seen the man infront of me use his driving licence only , had lost his registration card .

Johnny Johnson

sandin wrote: »

Thankfully I have a reasonable standard of education like most Irish people and also thankfully the issue has been well explained and therefore I have no doubts that this treaty is good for Ireland and will prevent any government over spending to buy an election again.

Therefore, I know and I have voted yes and I predict a 64% yes vote with the usual uneduacated sheep following SF hotspots saying no.

Condescending claptrap.

sandin

Johnny Johnson wrote: »

Condescending claptrap.

How is it condescending. I'm saying I have a reasonable level of education like MOST Irish people.

Most - "majority" "nearly all" etc etc.

Sinn Fein have traditionally gone for areas and get their core vote (regarded at between 8%-10%) from people who will blindly follow them no matter what they say.

Bards

sandin wrote: »

How is it condescending. I'm saying I have a reasonable level of education like MOST Irish people.

Most - "majority" "nearly all" etc etc.

Sinn Fein have traditionally gone for areas and get their core vote (regarded at between 8%-10%) from people who will blindly follow them no matter what they say.

It is more than Sinn Fein who are advocating a NO vote - I'm educated and will be voting NO.

Voting NO does not preclude us from ever accessing the ESM. We can have a 2nd, 3rd... go at the cherry.

In Poker parlance, Voting YES now means we are are going All-In Pre-FLOP (Treaty has not been fully drafted, we are missing the Pro Growth Pact for starters)

so we better be sure we are HOLDING Aces or else we are F***ed

ROCKMAN

sandin wrote: »

How is it condescending. I'm saying I have a reasonable level of education like MOST Irish people.

Most - "majority" "nearly all" etc etc.

Sinn Fein have traditionally gone for areas and get their core vote (regarded at between 8%-10%) from people who will blindly follow them no matter what they say.

Calling them uneducated (spelling ) kind of does the trick.




Yes i know its a second go at the spelling mistake but I think it deserves it given the content etc.

OldNotWIse

Johnny Johnson wrote: »

Condescending claptrap.

The only thing worse than "condescending claptrap" is resorting to insults (and picking on typos) because someone does not agree with you.

I believe you made the assumption that we are uneducated (in respect of the treaty anyway) by yammering on about "voting NO if you're not sure". The poster was, like myself, simply saying that they are educated and know what way they will vote. I am educated. This is not condescending. It is not a dig at other Irish people, and it is not the reason I am voting yes. Plenty of educated people will be voting no (and plenty are simply voting no because they want to "get at the government")

Johnny Johnson

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Johnny Johnson wrote: »

Condescending claptrap.

The only thing worse than "condescending claptrap" is resorting to insults (and picking on typos) because someone does not agree with you.

I believe you made the assumption that we are uneducated (in respect of the treaty anyway) by yammering on about "voting NO if you're not sure". The poster was, like myself, simply saying that they are educated and know what way they will vote. I am educated. This is not condescending. It is not a dig at other Irish people, and it is not the reason I am voting yes. Plenty of educated people will be voting no (and plenty are simply voting no because they want to "get at the government")

I think you may want to have a read of the thread because I have done none of what you suggest.

OldNotWIse

Johnny Johnson wrote: »

I think you may want to have a read of the thread because I have done none of what you suggest.

Oh please, that oul' "read the thread" line? I must be mistaken, I didn't realise referring to someones post as "condescending claptrap" was actually a compliment. Silly me.

Johnny Johnson

You are a pleasant individual aren't you. To question the education of those who disagree with you is condescending drivel.

It is obvious that you are of the same thinking as the other person so run along now.

OldNotWIse

Johnny Johnson wrote: »

You are a pleasant individual aren't you. To question the education of those who disagree with you is condescending drivel.

It is obvious that you are of the same thinking as the other person so run along now.

I have my moments

I refer you to post 281, and no I wont be "running along" anywhere


Let me get this right. "Condescending claptrap" is for posters who disagree with you/are voting yes/are not afraid to admit they are educated and you reserve "condescending drivel" for anyone who agrees with said posters. Interesting. Is nobody allowed to have an opinion without being insulted? I have accused nobody of being uneducated, I am comfortable with those who may not share my views.

danjo-xx

Well I did my duty for better or worse so help me God:(

Am Chile

Prob the worst thing about the austerity treaty being passed is the low turnout below 50% anyone who didn,t bother going out to vote need not bother complaining about any future cuts or higher taxes, if the the austerity treaty was put to a vote in other eu countries a lot more then 50% would vote, and it would be voted down, michael noonan has being proven right when he said Ireland would be the only country in the eu who would pass the austerity treaty in a referendum.

When the real austerity kicks in now that its passed, lets see how many people will actually admit to voting yes.

Sad to say It takes a foreign news channel to be honest and tell us the real implications of the yes vote in this austerity treaty referendum. at least I can always say hand on heart I actually went out and voted, and voted no.

I won,t comment on the austerity treaty any further until after the budget is issued in december,given the euro yes camp have promised jobs,stabilty and Investment, we see a year from now how well they deliver on this promise.

insight_man

Am Chile wrote: »

Prob the worst thing about the austerity treaty being passed is the low turnout below 50% anyone who didn,t bother going out to vote need not bother complaining about any future cuts or higher taxes, if the the austerity treaty was put to a vote in other eu countries a lot more then 50% would vote, and it would be voted down, michael noonan has being proven right when he said Ireland would be the only country in the eu who would pass the austerity treaty in a referendum.

When the real austerity kicks in now that its passed, lets see how many people will actually admit to voting yes.

Sad to say It takes a foreign news channel to be honest and tell us the real implications of the yes vote in this austerity treaty referendum. at least I can always say hand on heart I actually went out and voted, and voted no.

I won,t comment on the austerity treaty any further until after the budget is issued in december,given the euro yes camp have promised jobs,stabilty and Investment, we see a year from now how well they deliver on this promise.

I agree with everything you've said. summed it all up very well. Unfortunatly the rest of us will have to suffer the consequences of those who voted yes.

And you're right very few people will admit to voting yes!

Sully

Firstly, this wasn't an Austerity treaty.

Secondly, even parts of the No Campaign admitted that we had austerity regardless of the way we voted and Decembera budget was going to be tough regardless. We knew that as far back as the General Election.

Thirdly, the No camp always insist other European Counties would vote any EU treaty down yet never provide proof. The Greeks look like they want pro bailout parties back in power and the French voted in a President who wasn't going to change the treaty and was still being an active part of Europe.

Finally, a vast amount of people have openly admitted to voting Yes. Likewise to No. Poll after poll put the Yes side ahead but the No camp insisted the polls were government propaganda and false. It turns out it was accuarte unless your going one step further into the loony house and suggesting it was rigged. Turn out in Ireland is always poor and I think this time there were multiple factors including a poor choice of voting day. The referendums were long winded, trying and at times there was so much scare tactics and bullyboy behavior especially in the last few days from the No Camp I think people, sadly, decided to just dismiss the whole thing.

Also, a reminder Ireland is its own country and entitled to vote when it likes and the way it likes. What other Europeana may have done does not apply. Its amusing on the one side the No camp were giving out about the EU dictating to us but when you want to turn the tables your way you complain we didn't go and vote the way Europeans on the ground may have wanted us to vote.

Hijpo

Sully wrote: »

regardless of the way we voted and Decembera budget was going to be tough regardless. We knew that as far back as the General Election.

there was so much scare tactics and bullyboy behavior especially in the last few days from the No Camp I think people, sadly, decided to just dismiss the whole thing.

Its funny how you say bullyboy and scare tactics were used by the No side and dont comment on the governments tactics.

For example
You say that everyone knew there was going to be a harsh budget, then completely over look the fact that the government threatend us with harsher budgets following a no vote. So if there was going to be a harsh budget anyway, why feel the need to apply it to a No vote?

Finnbar01

Sully wrote: »

Firstly, this wasn't an Austerity treaty.

Secondly, even parts of the No Campaign admitted that we had austerity regardless of the way we voted and Decembera budget was going to be tough regardless. We knew that as far back as the General Election.

Thirdly, the No camp always insist other European Counties would vote any EU treaty down yet never provide proof. The Greeks look like they want pro bailout parties back in power and the French voted in a President who wasn't going to change the treaty and was still being an active part of Europe.

Finally, a vast amount of people have openly admitted to voting Yes. Likewise to No. Poll after poll put the Yes side ahead but the No camp insisted the polls were government propaganda and false. It turns out it was accuarte unless your going one step further into the loony house and suggesting it was rigged. Turn out in Ireland is always poor and I think this time there were multiple factors including a poor choice of voting day. The referendums were long winded, trying and at times there was so much scare tactics and bullyboy behavior especially in the last few days from the No Camp I think people, sadly, decided to just dismiss the whole thing.

Also, a reminder Ireland is its own country and entitled to vote when it likes and the way it likes. What other Europeana may have done does not apply. Its amusing on the one side the No camp were giving out about the EU dictating to us but when you want to turn the tables your way you complain we didn't go and vote the way Europeans on the ground may have wanted us to vote.

Yep, great result ok. The government adopted scare tactics to 'encourage' a YES vote. Of course most YES folk will think that we can now avoid austerity and have access to a pot of money.They couldn't be more wrong.

As I said in previous posts, the only way out for this country is to default, drop out and devalue. Anything else is time wasting and costly.

merlante

Sully wrote: »

Firstly, this wasn't an Austerity treaty.

Secondly, even parts of the No Campaign admitted that we had austerity regardless of the way we voted and Decembera budget was going to be tough regardless. We knew that as far back as the General Election.

Yes, we will have austerity regardless, because our debt levels are too high to take the conventional approach of having the government stimulate demand in a recession. But a constitutional change will ensure that *every* recession, regardless of our debt situation, will lead to austerity.

It's a dumb thing to put in a constitution but nobody seems to mind because they are convinced of some 'greater' (or dire) future assured by throwing ourselves at the feet of greater powers.

I'd say we'll have a vote for a European finance minister within a year. I expect it'll be passed by the same margin by the same people under even greater threats of doom and destruction. And so European democracy will roll on.

looksee

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Yep, great result ok. The government adopted scare tactics to 'encourage' a YES vote. Of course most YES folk will think that we can now avoid austerity and have access to a pot of money.They couldn't be more wrong.

As I said in previous posts, the only way out for this country is to default, drop out and devalue. Anything else is time wasting and costly.

I voted yes, I was not aware of any scare tactics that made me vote yes. I do not think we will avoid austerity, but having lived through austerity in the 50s and to some extent in the 70s/80s I reckon I will survive, same as we did before.

Would you care to explain just how your solution would create jobs and restore the economy? Spinning gold from straw maybe, or finding the elves that help out shoemakers?

OldNotWIse

looksee wrote: »

I voted yes, I was not aware of any scare tactics that made me vote yes. I do not think we will avoid austerity, but having lived through austerity in the 50s and to some extent in the 70s/80s I reckon I will survive, same as we did before.

Would you care to explain just how your solution would create jobs and restore the economy? Spinning gold from straw maybe, or finding the elves that help out shoemakers?

Good point. I await the replies I too take offence at the suggestion that any of us who voted yes did so because we were "scared into it"

wellboytoo

I voted yes , no one scared me into it, I thought it was the best decision on the Fiscal treaty, you must have voted for a different treaty than I.

Finnbar01

looksee wrote: »

I voted yes, I was not aware of any scare tactics that made me vote yes. I do not think we will avoid austerity, but having lived through austerity in the 50s and to some extent in the 70s/80s I reckon I will survive, same as we did before.

Would you care to explain just how your solution would create jobs and restore the economy? Spinning gold from straw maybe, or finding the elves that help out shoemakers?

I was not trying to generalise(but maybe I came across like that) that all people who voted yes did so because they were scared. The point I was making was towards the OP and I also believe that the government did use scare tatics to get a yes vote.

My solution would be to take all the pain more or less up front.

It means default, drop out and devalue. Yes I know this would be painful, but dragging it out over a number of years would be far worse.

Bards

Hope all ye YES People are Happy - Told you we would have got a better deal by voting NO:mad:

"President of the European Central Bank Mario Draghi appears to have ruled out debt relief for Ireland's banking burden, because the country approved the fiscal treaty."

"When asked about debt relief for the country's banking bailout, Mr Draghi said, following the Yes vote: "I don't think there was any grounds for a quid pro quo.""


http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0606/kenny-wants-political-solution-to-euro-crisis.html