The Fiscal Treaty Yes or No

insight_man

Here is a brilliant video I came across that sums up the Austerity Treaty / Fiscal Treaty in about 2 mins. It's really powerful stuff. I recommend that everyone on boards who are interested in the content of this treaty view this video before they go to vote on the 31st. Real easy to look at and to understand the key points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNa5k0KCVbw

AdMMM

Our Ciara Conway doing a nice little dance

Sully

insight_man wrote: »

Here is a brilliant video I came across that sums up the Austerity Treaty / Fiscal Treaty in about 2 mins. It's really powerful stuff. I recommend that everyone on boards who are interested in the content of this treaty view this video before they go to vote on the 31st. Real easy to look at and to understand the key points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNa5k0KCVbw

Did you get any of my replies addressing your points in previous posts? Or are you just plucking stuff from the internet, throwing it up and hoping it will stick for some and not actual back it up when its proven to be false?!

The video is not about the Fiscal Treaty. Nothing in the video effects the Fiscal Treaty in any shape or form. That video is about the European Stability Mechanism (the ESM). We are not voting on the ESM nor are we required to put the issue to a public referendum. If we vote No to the Fiscal Treaty, the ESM still exists and we will still be paying into it (the government intends to bring this through the Dail and get it voted in).

But to address the point raised in the video, just so those that genuinely care and wonder can see that the video is more of the nonsense pushed by those on the No side. Unanimity is required to call on capital or raise the capital ceiling of the ESM.

Article 4.2, 4.3 ESM:

2. The decisions of the Board of Governors and the Board of Directors shall be taken by mutual agreement, qualified majority or simple majority as specified in this Treaty. In respect of all decisions, a quorum of 2/3 of the members with voting rights representing at least 2/3 of the voting rights must be present.
3. The adoption of a decision by mutual agreement requires the unanimity of the members participating in the vote. Abstentions do not prevent the adoption of a decision by mutual agreement.

"Mutual agreement" = unanimity.

Article 5.1

1. Each ESM Member shall appoint a Governor and an alternate Governor. Such appointments are revocable at any time. The Governor shall be a member of the government of that ESM Member who has responsibility for finance. The alternate Governor shall have full power to act on behalf of the Governor when the latter is not present.

Board members are government appointees only, their appointment revocable at any time.

Article 5.6

6. The Board of Governors shall take the following decisions by mutual agreement:

These are the decisions requiring unanimity.

Article 5.6 (c) and (d)

(c) to make the capital calls, in accordance with Article 9(1);

Capital calls require unanimity, except where capital has been depleted below an agreed level by losses (9.2) or to avoid the ESM failing to honour a repayment to lenders (9.3).

(d) to change the authorised capital stock and adapt the maximum lending volume of the ESM, in accordance with Article 10(1);

Changing the ESM ceiling requires unanimity.

There is therefore no ability for the ESM to "extort" money from its contributing countries. The idea is frankly daft, because those are the same countries that wrote the ESM Treaty.

(As pointed out by Scofflaw, Politics Moderator and Political Enthusiast on the Boards.ie Politics Forum)

nkay1985

AdMMM wrote: »

Our Ciara Conway doing a nice little dance

Is that meant to say yes?

Sully

nkay1985 wrote: »

Is that meant to say yes?

Aye, but I doubt the photo was ever supposed to be released to the public.

insight_man

wellboytoo wrote: »

O Leary did not call for immediate €20 billion cuts, he said when asked his opinion, that the government were making a cats manacky of it, he said the cuts were going on too long and there was no perceived end to them, he would cut 20 b in the first year get the pain out of the way in two years, and tell people that it will end in two years.
Agree or disagree the principal of a finite period of pain and a timescale has a definite appeal.
Probably the first time I warmed to one of his suggestions.

Funny isn't it that ALL the people telling us to accept cuts ie €20 billion or whatever are all people who have or earn loads of money. For instance the said Michael O'Leary, Enda Kenny, Eamon Gilmore, IBEC, who else I wonder...oh yes Partick Honohan (govenor of our central bank) and on the board of the ECB, so why wouldn't he call for a yes vote to keep his German and Irish masters happy. Hmmm who else now...Denis O'Brien, Tony O'Reilly, Nora Casey (millionaire from Dragons Den).

I have no problem with people having to pay their way but I'm sick of very wealthy people telling the rest of us what to do and what kind of medicine is good for us i.e cuts and cuts and extra charges like household and water. Yet these 'cuts' won't affect them one little bit because they are insulated against them.

Tell that little child that collapsed from malnutrition in a Cork school last week that more cuts are needed. Sure we all have loads of money we just need to break open our piggy banks, yeah sure we have....rubbish. I want to live in a 'society' that cares about people and families not just a country. A country by the way that will be no more than a province of Germany if this treaty gets passed.

It's time for the Irish people to stand up for ourselves seeing as our government won't. We are an independent nation for only about 90 years and already our political masters want to hand over what little sovereignty we have left to unelected EU officials.

We have our chance on May 31st lets take it with both hands by voting NO in huge numbers.

Sully

insight_man wrote: »

Funny isn't it that ALL the people telling us to accept cuts ie €20 billion or whatever are all people who have or earn loads of money. For instance the said Michael O'Leary, Enda Kenny, Eamon Gilmore, IBEC, who else I wonder...oh yes Partick Honohan (govenor of our central bank) and on the board of the ECB, so why wouldn't he call for a yes vote to keep his German and Irish masters happy. Hmmm who else now...Denis O'Brien, Tony O'Reilly, Nora Casey (millionaire from Dragons Den).

I have no problem with people having to pay their way but I'm sick of very wealthy people telling the rest of us what to do and what kind of medicine is good for us i.e cuts and cuts and extra charges like household and water. Yet these 'cuts' won't affect them one little bit because they are insulated against them.

Tell that little child that collapsed from malnutrition in a Cork school last week that more cuts are needed. Sure we all have loads of money we just need to break open our piggy banks, yeah sure we have....rubbish. I want to live in a 'society' that cares about people and families not just a country. A country by the way that will be no more than a province of Germany if this treaty gets passed.

It's time for the Irish people to stand up for ourselves seeing as our government won't. We are an independent nation for only about 90 years and already our political masters want to hand over what little sovereignty we have left to unelected EU officials.

We have our chance on May 31st lets take it with both hands by voting NO in huge numbers.

One would assume those who made serious money know what they are talking about, know what they are doing and understand that investing in a country with an economy on the brink and with an economic future so uncertain would be of no benefit to them. These big money investors are the people Sinn Fein want investing in Ireland. These big money investors are the people Ireland should be encouraging to invest in our country, and to create even more jobs. Lets not forget that all these "rich people" are a big part of our economy.

But putting aside them for the moment. You suggest its only the big guys who are backing the treaty. I would hardly put these guys on the same scale as the likes of "the rich" you speak of.

The Small Firms Association, Waterford Chamber of Commerce, The Chamber of Commerce, The Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association and Irish Thoroughbred Marketing, The Irish Business Sector, PharmaChemical Ireland, and ISME (Irish Small and Medium Enterprises association), Agri-business and Farm Organisations, Irish Cattle and Sheep farmers Association, Glanbia, Kepak, Chairman of Connacht Gold Co-Op, Cork Marts, Brett Brothers, Macra Na Feirme, and Cashel Blue Farmhouse Cheese. The list goes on.

insight_man

Sully wrote: »

One would assume those who made serious money know what they are talking about, know what they are doing and understand that investing in a country with an economy on the brink and with an economic future so uncertain would be of no benefit to them. These big money investors are the people Sinn Fein want investing in Ireland. These big money investors are the people Ireland should be encouraging to invest in our country, and to create even more jobs. Lets not forget that all these "rich people" are a big part of our economy.

But putting aside them for the moment. You suggest its only the big guys who are backing the treaty. I would hardly put these guys on the same scale as the likes of "the rich" you speak of.

The Small Firms Association, Waterford Chamber of Commerce, The Chamber of Commerce, The Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association and Irish Thoroughbred Marketing, The Irish Business Sector, PharmaChemical Ireland, and ISME (Irish Small and Medium Enterprises association), Agri-business and Farm Organisations, Irish Cattle and Sheep farmers Association, Glanbia, Kepak, Chairman of Connacht Gold Co-Op, Cork Marts, Brett Brothers, Macra Na Feirme, and Cashel Blue Farmhouse Cheese. The list goes on.

'From the mouths of babes', as the saying goes. From the list you just produced I rest my case.

Sully

insight_man wrote: »

'From the mouths of babes', as the saying goes. From the list you just produced I rest my case.

The mind boggles! You had no case to begin with, some would say.

wellboytoo

insight_man wrote: »

wellboytoo wrote: »

O Leary did not call for immediate €20 billion cuts, he said when asked his opinion, that the government were making a cats manacky of it, he said the cuts were going on too long and there was no perceived end to them, he would cut 20 b in the first year get the pain out of the way in two years, and tell people that it will end in two years.
Agree or disagree the principal of a finite period of pain and a timescale has a definite appeal.
Probably the first time I warmed to one of his suggestions.

Funny isn't it that ALL the people telling us to accept cuts ie €20 billion or whatever are all people who have or earn loads of money. For instance the said Michael O'Leary, Enda Kenny, Eamon Gilmore, IBEC, who else I wonder...oh yes Partick Honohan (govenor of our central bank) and on the board of the ECB, so why wouldn't he call for a yes vote to keep his German and Irish masters happy. Hmmm who else now...Denis O'Brien, Tony O'Reilly, Nora Casey (millionaire from Dragons Den).

I have no problem with people having to pay their way but I'm sick of very wealthy people telling the rest of us what to do and what kind of medicine is good for us i.e cuts and cuts and extra charges like household and water. Yet these 'cuts' won't affect them one little bit because they are insulated against them.

Tell that little child that collapsed from malnutrition in a Cork school last week that more cuts are needed. Sure we all have loads of money we just need to break open our piggy banks, yeah sure we have....rubbish. I want to live in a 'society' that cares about people and families not just a country. A country by the way that will be no more than a province of Germany if this treaty gets passed.

It's time for the Irish people to stand up for ourselves seeing as our government won't. We are an independent nation for only about 90 years and already our political masters want to hand over what little sovereignty we have left to unelected EU officials.

We have our chance on May 31st lets take it with both hands by voting NO in huge numbers.

So by your logic if your skint or near the breadline or from a party on the left you can advise the public of your views, but if you have the temerity to have made money you have no right to advise.
Mmmm

Boskowski

EURATS wrote: »

Boskowski wrote: »

Says the guy with all of 22 posts on his belt and the eloquent username? I'm impressed.


Well we all have to start somewhere boskowski. Being on 2,389 posts seems to put you up on a pedestal, or at least you think it does. And that's fine. Each to their own.
As for your post, there was nothing eloquent about it. This one today however wasn't as sloppy. Not to say I agree with you

Thats not what I meant. 22 posts smells a bit like registered to lobby on the treaty threads and nothing else. Sorry if that is a wrong assumption, would be an easy mistake to make though wouldn't it?

I say one thing though and thats there are a lot of factual mistakes spread on these forums on the referendum itself, on the EU, on our debt and how it came about and the list goes on. Some of if deliberately most of it due to ignorance. And then there is the problem that people project a lot of other things they are frustrated about onto this referendum and they want to show 'them up there' the finger when its not really clear whether they'd actually achieve that and in fact wether they might vote against something thats actually good for them or say not as bad as the alternative.
The role of the political powers is not a glorious one either. Both sides play to that and misinform the electorate when really the matter at hand is quite clear and could be perfectly summed up on half a page with a few bullet points.
I can only encourage to read the treaty. Its only a few pages strong and can be understood quite easily. Then one won't have to listen to the sh1te from both sides and whatever way one feels about the treaty after that - at least they can feel content about having done the right thing.

insight_man

Sully wrote: »

The mind boggles! You had no case to begin with, some would say.

Yes I agree some would say that. There are also a lot who would recognise the case too. Time will tell.

insight_man

wellboytoo wrote: »

So by your logic if your skint or near the breadline or from a party on the left you can advise the public of your views, but if you have the temerity to have made money you have no right to advise.
Mmmm

That is your supposition not mine. Everyone can have an opinion. I was pointing out how those with money seem to always tell those of us who dont have loads of money that we need to take some pain, take cuts etc. It's a clear observation that's all.

Sully

insight_man wrote: »

That is your supposition not mine. Everyone can have an opinion. I was pointing out how those with money seem to always tell those of us who dont have loads of money that we need to take some pain, take cuts etc. It's a clear observation that's all.

And what about those who are on the Yes side that don't have have as much money? Do we pretend they don't exist because, again, it renders your point void?

insight_man

Sully wrote: »

And what about those who are on the Yes side that don't have have as much money? Do we pretend they don't exist because, again, it renders your point void?

I have not excluded anyone on the yes side who don't have much money. I've never said anything like that in any of my posts nor would I ever. There will be people with money and without money on the yes side and people with money and people without on the No side.

My observation was about people with plenty of money telling what is the vast majority of Irish people, those with reasonable amounts of money and those with very little, that we must endure cuts and pain etc to save the country.

I think its rich that kind of advice coming from those who really won't be affected by the very medicine they are prescribing. A perfectly valid and reasonable observation.

Sully

I wouldn't call it valid. It makes no sense. The people who are successful business people if anything carry more weight in this argument because they have built their success on Ireland being a good country to work and invest in. They require that Ireland's finances improve. If the treaty was bad news and was imposing very tough medicine, they would be feeling the pain big time.

For example, Ryanair is a very successful Irish business. They have posted profit growth of at least 25% every year since 2009. They are now warning that they expect a loss and they are basing it mostly on austerity. Ryanair are saying that the austerity is effecting their profits. That's tough medicine to take and puts jobs at stake.

Yet, knowing this, O'Leary still comes out and calls for a Yes vote anyway. If this treaty brought in more austerity, and worse austerity, than his profits would nose dive. No more pay outs to himself, his staff, his shareholders, and the company heads towards going bust. All as a result of austerity.

Its obvious when small (who don't have much money and are struggling), the medium and the large businesses all come out in force to say similar "For the love of god, vote Yes". The majority of businesses are effected by austerity. Austerity is bad news for business. Bringing in a treaty that brings permanent and more severe austerity, as you and other are saying, would force many businesses to shut down. That's a big hole in the economy in so many different ways. Why in the name of god would they call for something that will do that?

Seriously! You don't fully understand this treaty, and I don't mean to be disrespectful but most of what you posted indicated a poor understanding of the treaty and what it does. Your falling hook line and sinker into the fear factor and fear agenda set out. Some people are actually going to profit from a No vote here! Even the Yes side are getting a bit desperate at this stage and bringing in "possibilities" that are so far fetched its absolutely stupid.

What I find completely amazing is the people that will constantly complain about Europe. They will go against every single treaty or proposal Europe related. They will do their best to make the boat unsteady and cause problems Europe wide. Yet, these very people will happily sit back and will seek election to Europe, drawing down a big ass wage and even bigger expenses. Living it up in fancy hotels, big fancy meals, first class flights and all of this paid for by us. Its the same here at home - those who claim they are representing the working class and representing the hard done by. Yet, they sit in the Dail claiming the full salary and any expenses they can get their hands on - which is milking us dry and part of the reason why cuts are being made to the working class.

Bards

David McWilliams has a very good article in the Independent and lambastes Business people for knowing nothing about Macro Economics, and that you cannot compare Accountancy to Economics.

I.E What's good for a business does not directly translate into the wider economy

Worth a read http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-mcwilliams/david-mcwilliams-fiscal-treaty-is-kamikaze-economics-for-most-of-eu-3116838.html

banjacksed

theres a debate on wlr at the moment, seem's like the NO side are getting the better of things

Sully

banjacksed wrote: »

theres a debate on wlr at the moment, seem's like the NO side are getting the better of things

Just tuned in but I thought the Yes "camp" did a better ending then the No side. But I didn't hear it all so maybe it was different earlier.

Finnbar01

Does anyone know exactly how Sinn Fein would deal with the economy if they were in control?

Hijpo

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Does anyone know exactly how Sinn Fein would deal with the economy if they were in control?

I thought i saw a chap in an electricity company van putting up NO signs on lamp posts?
Although maybe he was after taking it down to do a job and was putting it back up? Anyone else see it?

Gingko

It will be a yes vote and this treaty will be passed through. However I'm voting no.

It will not be good for our long term future and more of our freedom and assets will be taken away from us. Eventually we will be left powerless.

Sully

Gingko wrote: »

It will be a yes vote and this treaty will be passed through. However I'm voting no.

It will not be good for our long term future and more of our freedom and assets will be taken away from us. Eventually we will be left powerless.

This isn't taking anything we already lost from us... Apart from allowing European Courts to fine us if we refuse to keep spending in check?

Hijpo

Sully wrote: »

Gingko wrote: »

It will be a yes vote and this treaty will be passed through. However I'm voting no.

It will not be good for our long term future and more of our freedom and assets will be taken away from us. Eventually we will be left powerless.

This isn't taking anything we already lost from us... Apart from allowing European Courts to fine us if we refuse to keep spending in check?

What are the chances of ireland not getting fined?

Sully

Hijpo wrote: »

What are the chances of ireland not getting fined?

We have met the targets before, I don't see why we cant again. Its more about protecting our budgets from governments excessively spending.

Bards

Sully wrote: »

We have met the targets before, I don't see why we cant again. Its more about protecting our budgets from governments excessively spending.

Which is why I voted for Maastricht, but not a lot of good that did for us eh?

If this treaty was in prior to the boom it still would have us in the quagmire that we now find ourselves in. There is no way this treaty will or would have prevented that.

We need a route and branch reform of government here. Starting at the very top.

At. Most we should have no more than 60 TD's and no more than 6 local authorities saving hundreds of millions every

All allowances should be benchmarked against the private wealth generating sector, e.g mileage.

Sully

Bards wrote: »

Which is why I voted for Maastricht, but not a lot of good that did for us eh?

Indeed, but this is supposed to address the flaws and failures in that treaty and is part of a number of steps taken past and probably future.

merlante

Sully wrote: »

Indeed, but this is supposed to address the flaws and failures in that treaty and is part of a number of steps taken past and probably future.

Let's call a spade as spade. This was always a stunt playing out for the German people -- although with Hollande now it could be substantially changed. It doesn't address anything of any immediate value -- and as Bard's said, wouldn't have even provided a speed bump for crises in countries like Ireland or Spain.

It intends to enshrine some dubious economic principles into law, and at the very time when the lessons of the last depression say we should be loosening the rules not tightening them.

If you're a member of the 'reluctant no' brigade, and are worried about funding, fair enough up to a point (still a spineless position imho), but if you actually *believe* in the treaty itself, I find that nuts. We are living through textbook stupidity, where kids will not understand why so many stupid and inconsequential actions were taken.

christmas2012

im voting yes,not because some smug rich business people with links to fine gael are,but because we could be in bigger **** apparently if we dont.

although i do think there is a lot of information thrown out there on the 'yes' side of,the sky will fall on us if we dont vote yes.

and from the 'no' side of well there are rules that havent been written in yet,and we wont be consulted on it.

but i think it is very irresponsible of the 'no' side to vote no for the sake of voting no and sticking it to the eu zone.......what i want to know is what is the solution of the no side,do they have a better alternative to what the yes side have to offer which is borrowing low interest rate money?
the no side dont seem to have a better alternative to offer..

Finnbar01

I'm voting no because:

1. We need to stop borrowing money.
2. We need to balance our budget as soon as possible.
3. We need to get a deal on our bank debt


If you vote Yes (IMO) you are just dragging out the economic 'pain' over a number of years.