In defence of cyclists

Funkygreendogs

seamus wrote: »

Are you serious?

It's illegal to cycle on the path, not to mention quite dangerous.

A cyclist riding on the road does not "force" anyone else to do anything. If a vehicle swerves out in front of oncoming traffic, that's because they're a dangerous driver, not because they've been "forced" to do anything.

Yes I am serious, and no I had no idea that it was illegal.

Its seriously dangerous, whatever about dangerous drivers, granted we have plenty of them. But there are dangerous cyclists also, and in my opinion its alot safer to cycle on a footpath than on the road.

Zzippy

Funkygreendogs wrote: »

Yes I am serious, and no I had no idea that it was illegal.

Its seriously dangerous, whatever about dangerous drivers, granted we have plenty of them. But there are dangerous cyclists also, and in my opinion its alot safer to cycle on a footpath than on the road.

It might be safer for cyclists, but not for pedestrians, and that's why it's ILLEGAL!

If you had no idea it was illegal, you clearly need to read the rules of the road again - how did you get your driving licence in the first place?

ford2600

Before you rant again, you might check your facts about the rules of the road, makes you look a bit silly..
Guessing you don't cycle much, or push a buggy/wheelchair along footpaths if your looking to put bikes on paths.
Car drivers are road users just like cyclists, get on a bike and try and see it from the cyclists perspective...

Funkygreendogs wrote: »

Yes I am serious, and no I had no idea that it was illegal.

Its seriously dangerous, whatever about dangerous drivers, granted we have plenty of them. But there are dangerous cyclists also, and in my opinion its alot safer to cycle on a footpath than on the road.

Robbo

It's like shining an outline of Lance Armstrong's syringe against the clouds, they have been summoned.

Sponge Bob

Robbo wrote: »

It's like shining an outline of Lance Armstrong's syringe against the clouds, they have been summoned.

We know where this will inevitably lead don't we Robbo. :cool:

galwaycyclist

Robbo wrote: »

It's like shining an outline of Lance Armstrong's syringe against the clouds, they have been summoned.

As if on cue .......

Forgive me if I don't bother rehashing for the OP

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Ok rather than jump straight into statistics on cycle lanes/paths its better to start from first principles.

Most collisions, including car/bicycle, collisions happen at junctions.

The patterns in this diagram are taken from this paper: Layout and Design Factors Affecting Cycle Safety at T-Junctions, Henson R. and Whelan N., Traffic Engineering and Control, October 1992



If we look at the top three situations involving failure to yield by turning motorists, we have

1) Motor driver pull out from near side. 30%
2) Motor driver turns across path of cyclist from offside. 12%
3) Motor driver overtakes cyclist and turns into nearside junction. 6.5%

In terms of avoiding these types of collision, the recomended advice for cyclists is to adopt a prominent road position in the vicinity of this type of junction. (Having first had regard for the nature and speed of following traffic.) If traffic conditions allow, you want to be out where the motorists are looking.

We can infer from these crash types that, for the cyclist, staying too far to the left might put them at increased risk. Therefore road features that encourage cyclists to keep too far left (cycle lanes) or which take cyclists completely out of the "zone of attention" of other drivers (roadside cycle paths) might tend to increase the likelihood of such collisions occurring.

galwaycyclist

And to complete todays lesson (the OP referred to below is not our OP)

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Ok the following graphic has been put together from these sources.

• Sweden: Leif Linderholm: Signalreglerade korsningars funktion och olycksrisk för oskyddade trafikanter - Delrapport 1: Cyklister. Institutionen för trafikteknik, LTH: Bulletin 55, Lund 1984, In: »Russian Roulette« turns spotlight of criticism on cycleways, Proceedings of conference »Sicherheit rund ums Radfahren«, Vienna 1991.
• USA: A. Wachtel and D. Lewiston: Risk factors for bicycle-motor vehicle collisions at intersections, Journal of the Institute of Transportation Engineers, pp 30-35, September, 1994.
• Denmark: S.U. Jensen, K.V. Andersen and E.D. Nielsen: Junctions and Cyclists, Velo-city ‘97 Barcelona, Spain .
• Finland: M Rasanen and H. Summala: The safety effect of sight obstacles and road markings at bicycle crossings, Traffic Engineering and Control, pp 98-101, February, 1998.

It is not intended to be indicative of any particular design although all the figures relate to footpath/footway roadside cycle-path type structures. (Cycle lanes marked on the carriageway appear to be less conflict prone - but still a source of increased risk at junctions) It is the findings like this that are behind the use of differentiated surface colours at crossing points -red,blue,green etc. This was the original purpose of such treatments: to highlight the conflict points at the crossings - not as a general treatment. In countries like the Netherlands, you will also see so called "elephants footprints" or "sharks teeth" road markings, which further highlight the crossing area. The crossing area may also be built up into a speed ramp.

To get back to the OPs original post. The collision rates are substantially higher for cyclists cycling on the wrong side of the road. Motorists are simply not acclimatised to looking for cyclists coming from that quadrant.

Funkygreendogs

Zzippy wrote: »

It might be safer for cyclists, but not for pedestrians, and that's why it's ILLEGAL!

If you had no idea it was illegal, you clearly need to read the rules of the road again - how did you get your driving licence in the first place?

No actually just the part about cyclists. And honestly, every driver must read the rules of the road, but cyclists are not required to take any test.

Darkglasses

Nothing dangerous about cycling on the road - it's where bikes are supposed to be. It becomes dangerous when impatient/dangerous drivers enter the equation. Just wait until you know it is safe to overtake, and everybody's happy.

Funkygreendogs

Darkglasses wrote: »

Nothing dangerous about cycling on the road - it's where bikes are supposed to be. It becomes dangerous when impatient/dangerous drivers enter the equation. Just wait until you know it is safe to overtake, and everybody's happy.

No it is actually pretty dangerous to do on this particular road, there are lots of dangerous blind corners, as I said its really just a matter of timing if a cyclist happens to be cycling past a blind bend and a car enters at just the right moment, they will be killed. There is no way possible to see around the bend and the road is very tight.

Actually my original argument about cycling on paths doesnt even apply anymore, it is illegal. No matter how much i disagree I understand if you guys cant cycle on the path because it is illegal. In that case I would suggest the county council seriously conciders changing the path to a cycle lane.

ford2600

Road users are required to drive at a speed that allows them to stop within the sight distance available to them, another rule of the road that you seem to have trouble with.
If this rule is obeyed, "blind" corners shouldn't be a problem; you just go slower..
Where do the pedestrians go of you make a bike path out of footpath?

The simple answer is motorists adjust their behaviour in compliance with rules of road.
You might want to give them a reread for your own sake in case you forgot any other sections..

Funkygreendogs wrote: »

No it is actually pretty dangerous to do on this particular road, there are lots of dangerous blind corners, as I said its really just a matter of timing if a cyclist happens to be cycling past a blind bend and a car enters at just the right moment, they will be killed. There is no way possible to see around the bend and the road is very tight.

Actually my original argument about cycling on paths doesnt even apply anymore, it is illegal. No matter how much i disagree I understand if you guys cant cycle on the path because it is illegal. In that case I would suggest the county council seriously conciders changing the path to a cycle lane.

Funkygreendogs

There are certain situations when this might not be sufficient to "just slow down" on a blind corner, you might not even know it was a blind corner, or you might not be familure with the area in question, following the speed limit and next thing you know theres an accident. This does happen, not matter how safe or slow you are.

Your suggestion that I read the rules of the road again is not going to help the situation any more than me sitting back and doing nothing about the issue. What is open for debate here is what can be done about the situation, I understand that you feel the need to point out that I personally have trouble with driving in a safe and patient manner. I cant say for sure that you know me or my driving habits personally.

I suppose having a conversation involving actual real and positive suggestions on how to avoid this dangerous scenario is out of the question?

mikhail

Funkygreendogs wrote: »

There are certain situations when this might not be sufficient to "just slow down" on a blind corner, you might not even know it was a blind corner, or you might not be familure with the area in question, following the speed limit and next thing you know theres an accident. This does happen, not matter how safe or slow you are.

Your suggestion that I read the rules of the road again is not going to help the situation any more than me sitting back and doing nothing about the issue. What is open for debate here is what can be done about the situation, I understand that you feel the need to point out that I personally have trouble with driving in a safe and patient manner. I cant say for sure that you know me or my driving habits personally.

I suppose having a conversation involving actual real and positive suggestions on how to avoid this dangerous scenario is out of the question?

Clearly the speed limit on this particular road has been set ridiculously high. That, or your reading of the situation is farcically inaccurate. It's hard to tell which.

lardossan

I cycle and I treat car drivers, taxi drivers, bus drivers and everyone else in my way with the contempt they deserve. Intimidation is the only language people understand in this country.

seamus

Funkygreendogs wrote: »

I suppose having a conversation involving actual real and positive suggestions on how to avoid this dangerous scenario is out of the question?

Real and positive suggestions:

- Drive at a speed which which enables you to stop within the distance you can see to be clear. This includes taking corners - you should be able to stop within the distance that you can see around the corner. It should not be possible to "suddenly" see a cyclist, pedestrian, animal or vehicle and be unable to stop in time. If this occurs, you are driving too fast.

- Don't overtake on bends. It's illegal and ridiculously dangerous

- Ask the county council to remove hedging on bends or straighten the road to improve visibility

- If you are driving at the speed limit without due regard for the conditions, then you are driving dangerously. Don't do it.

ford2600

You clearly have a difficulty with this rule too, " drive at a speed which allows you to stop within the sight distance available to you".
If you don't know road; Slow Down
If you regularly encounter other road users, be prepared for them.



The speed limit, is not a target, you can't blindly follow speed limit whn it's not safe to do so.

Genuinely, start reading the rules of road for yourself, your ommissions on this thread are pretty shocking

Funkygreendogs wrote: »

There are certain situations when this might not be sufficient to "just slow down" on a blind corner, you might not even know it was a blind corner, or you might not be familure with the area in question, following the speed limit and next thing you know theres an accident. This does happen, not matter how safe or slow you are.

Your suggestion that I read the rules of the road again is not going to help the situation any more than me sitting back and doing nothing about the issue. What is open for debate here is what can be done about the situation, I understand that you feel the need to point out that I personally have trouble with driving in a safe and patient manner. I cant say for sure that you know me or my driving habits personally.

I suppose having a conversation involving actual real and positive suggestions on how to avoid this dangerous scenario is out of the question?

SerialComplaint

Funkygreendogs wrote: »

There are certain situations when this might not be sufficient to "just slow down" on a blind corner, you might not even know it was a blind corner,

If you can't see round the corner, then it's a blind corner. How could you 'not know that it was a blind corner'?

Korvanica

The "cycle" of this thread has restarted I see.







ill get my coat

Funkygreendogs

SerialComplaint wrote: »

If you can't see round the corner, then it's a blind corner. How could you 'not know that it was a blind corner'?

You could argue that it is set high, i think its 60km but ill have to check that. I actually feel that it would be fairer to allow for the cyclists and provide a cycle lane in the place of the footpath, the footpath isnt actually used by pedestrians at the moment.

Funkygreendogs

ford2600 wrote: »

You clearly have a difficulty with this rule too, " drive at a speed which allows you to stop within the sight distance available to you".
If you don't know road; Slow Down
If you regularly encounter other road users, be prepared for them.



The speed limit, is not a target, you can't blindly follow speed limit whn it's not safe to do so.

Genuinely, start reading the rules of road for yourself, your ommissions on this thread are pretty shocking

I suggest you go back and read the original post and the issue at the center of debate here, thanks

Funkygreendogs

SerialComplaint wrote: »

If you can't see round the corner, then it's a blind corner. How could you 'not know that it was a blind corner'?

Its a gradual bend and then it gets a little bit sharper as you turn into it, its enough to catch people out who arent familure with it, its dangerous really and what I am saying is that its possible to kill someone on a bicycle on that part of the road with a distraction such as a crying child in the back seat...etc

SerialComplaint

Funkygreendogs wrote: »

You could argue that it is set high, i think its 60km but ill have to check that.

As others have pointed out, the speed limit is a limit, not a target. If you can't see clear road in front of you, you slow down until you can.

seamus

Funkygreendogs wrote: »

Its a gradual bend and then it gets a little bit sharper as you turn into it, its enough to catch people out who arent familure with it, its dangerous really and what I am saying is that its possible to kill someone on a bicycle on that part of the road with a distraction such as a crying child in the back seat...etc

So ban crying children, as that seems to be the problem.

Funkygreendogs

More cycle lanes maybe?

seamus

Funkygreendogs wrote: »

More cycle lanes maybe?

Cycle lanes cause more accidents because they create conflict points between cyclists and other road users.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to simply remove the dangerous bends? You only have to do it once, it's not a new piece of infrastructure which requires constant maintenance.

plys

Funkygreendogs wrote: »

More cycle lanes maybe?

In most cases it's not feasible to put cycle lanes on country roads like the one you have described (i've been down Barna direction, but i'm not sure I'm familiar with the road in question)

I used to suffer similar ire from motorists on my daily commute on a windy country road. I have since changed my route, as it was simply not possible to continue putting myself in such danger every day. The reason being, cyclists have their opinions about motorists, which dare I say are generally supported by the rules of the road - however motorists in this country still treat speed limits as targets irrespective of road conditions, other road users etc.

In short, drivers on country roads are a bit mental.

awec

seamus wrote: »

Cycle lanes cause more accidents because they create conflict points between cyclists and other road users.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to simply remove the dangerous bends? You only have to do it once, it's not a new piece of infrastructure which requires constant maintenance.

Indeed, especially when the cycle lanes just disappear and the road gets narrower. What is supposed to happen here?

As a cyclist I'm not going to chance it against cars, but at the same time me just stopping may surprise the driver behind me.

Chips Lovell

If you're driving at such a speed through a blind bend that you won't be able to avoid a slower vehicle on the other side of it, then you're driving dangerously.

Funkygreendogs

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

If you're driving at such a speed through a blind bend that you won't be able to avoid a slower vehicle on the other side of it, then you're driving dangerously.

I am not sure I understand you, are you saying a slower vehicle on the other side of the road has some impact on a car travelling around a blind corner? This is a two-way ordinary road. The other side of the road doesnt come into it. The fact of the matter is a blind corner is dangerous no matter how fast or slow you are going there could be a person running towards you for some reason at high speed and run straight into your car.

Chips Lovell

Funkygreendogs wrote: »

I am not sure I understand you, are you saying a slower vehicle on the other side of the road has some impact on a car travelling around a blind corner?

I meant the other side of the bend, not the other side of the road.

El Horseboxo

You can argue back and forth about cyclists and motorists but it's pointless. They're are people that shouldn't be operating as either of them on our roads. Each mode of transport has it's fair share of idiots. From cyclists that don't give right of way at roundabouts, break red lights and don't use hand signals. To motorists that speed, don't indicate correctly at roundabouts or turns and overtake recklessly.

I've had more bad experiences with motorists because there are more of them on the road. I've had my fair share with cyclists too though. My most recent was Sunday morning when about 20 cyclists 2 a breast went straight through a roundabout despite me having right of way and already making my turn. A few of them fell off as I jammed on to avoid them. Didn't hit any myself. The Friday I had someone nearly hit me head on in a car as they overtook on a dangerous bend. I had to swerve into the bus lane to avoid a collision. Despite both incidents I won't tar each kind with the one brush.

I think if you are going to be using the road you should have passed a test to do so. A big part of motor test is rules of the road. It is assumed anyone with a full license should be a capable driver. Although we all know that's not true. But it is for a lot of drivers. Cyclists have never been tested on rules of the road. I'm sure a lot of them know them but there's no assumption they should without a licensing system.

Capt'n Midnight

Funkygreendogs wrote: »

There are certain situations when this might not be sufficient to "just slow down" on a blind corner, you might not even know it was a blind corner, or you might not be familure with the area in question, following the speed limit and next thing you know theres an accident. This does happen, not matter how safe or slow you are.
...
I suppose having a conversation involving actual real and positive suggestions on how to avoid this dangerous scenario is out of the question?

Re blind corners, one of the first rules of driving is that you must travel at a speed that will allow you stop within the distance you can see to be clear.

Next if a cyclist is on the main road they have right of way over all side roads and traffic turning left across their path. If they travel on the path they would have to yield to both. Having to accelerate off from a stop on a bike takes roughly the same energy as cycling 300m.
Most collisions happen at junctions.

So you want cyclists to expend more energy and hand over their right of way in areas where motorists drive above a safe speed and/or can't overtake safely.

The cyclist in front of you is unlikely to be hit precisely because you can see them and should be watching out for them. Most collisions happen at junctions where motorists only look (subconsciously) for stuff that is a danger to them, motorcyclists also become invisible.

Capt'n Midnight

Funkygreendogs wrote: »

Its seriously dangerous, whatever about dangerous drivers, granted we have plenty of them. But there are dangerous cyclists also, and in my opinion its alot safer to cycle on a footpath than on the road.

Your opinion as a cyclist ?
or as a pedestrian ?
is it based on statistical evidence ?
is it based on the condition and width of paths ?


is it based on anything other than getting other road users out of your way ?

let's ban mopeds and horses too as they also slow down traffic

CramCycle

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

let's ban mopeds and horses too as they also slow down traffic

On several occasions this week I have been held up by those things going slower than me on the roads. I overtook one and got lambasted out of it at the next traffic lights.

You'd swear I hit the angry little fecker, but I didn't, he didn't pull in to the side to let me overtake, so when i seen the chance I swung out and put the foot down. I was at the lights about 2 minutes before he was (I didn't know they were going to go red). Luckily the lights went green and I was able to take off before he done some damage. Seen him briefly disappearing into the distance behind me but its not like he was ever going to catch me

For clarity I was on a bike and he was in BMW320. I presume he was hypermiling and then got annoyed when I overtook him.

Mycroft H

Funkygreendogs wrote: »

More cycle lanes maybe?

Yes because we clearly need another cycle lane when CoCo have come up with beauties like this in the past

Ray Palmer

In the last two days 2 pedestrians looked saw me cycling and then walked out in front of me.

That is ignoring the various cars the decide the closer they get to me the better.

The disregard for cyclists when the aren't doing any wrong is not justifiable under any circumstance.

Mycroft H

Ray Palmer wrote: »

In the last two days 2 pedestrians looked saw me cycling and then walked out in front of me.

That is ignoring the various cars the decide the closer they get to me the better.

The disregard for cyclists when the aren't doing any wrong is not justifiable under any circumstance.

Practice your shouting voice. There wont be a ped that will walk in front of me when I've roared move out of the way at them

CramCycle

BX 19 wrote: »

Practice your shouting voice. There wont be a ped that will walk in front of me when I've roared move out of the way at them

Some of them jump into your path like lemmings off a cliff, you would be shocked how odd some people behave.

Mycroft H

CramCycle wrote: »

Some of them jump into your path like lemmings off a cliff, you would be shocked how odd some people behave.

Or the blinking front light. Like moths attracted to a lightbulb

ford2600

Nice post, I'll love those moments:D

CramCycle wrote: »

On several occasions this week I have been held up by those things going slower than me on the roads. I overtook one and got lambasted out of it at the next traffic lights.

You'd swear I hit the angry little fecker, but I didn't, he didn't pull in to the side to let me overtake, so when i seen the chance I swung out and put the foot down. I was at the lights about 2 minutes before he was (I didn't know they were going to go red). Luckily the lights went green and I was able to take off before he done some damage. Seen him briefly disappearing into the distance behind me but its not like he was ever going to catch me

For clarity I was on a bike and he was in BMW320. I presume he was hypermiling and then got annoyed when I overtook him.

Ray Palmer

Yesterday a woman standing in the cycle lane screamed at me to get off the path which she felt the cycle lane was. Damned if do damned if you don't
Amazing how a white line makes a path safe for pedestrians and cyclists. Ignoring the paths that are just plain shared. Obviously planners don't think it is dangerous as some people here think

WhiteRussian

A car being a bully can be sorted with a simple kick to their side mirror. See them react to that without getting a prison sentence!

karl_m

Worst experience cycling today. I in no way completely blame the mother, you could argue I had a little blame too. But the dangers of cycling in town is startling. Luckily no one was hurt.
I was cycling down Parnell Street, just outside the Ilac Shopping Centre.
I was green Light for me and three cars were ahead.
The cars passed the traffic lights, and people started to walk across the road.
They all stopped when they saw me and I was continuing cycling down the road.
A mother and child at the far end of the group of people ran across the road.
By the time I saw them they were too close to avoid, so I squeezed the brakes, slowed down and hoped for the best.
I didn't directly hit the mother or child, but did hit through them and knocked them both down and I fell of the bike.
The mother got up straight away and went to the child, the child was crying but didn't have any visible injuries, I was fine.
I went over and asked, in somewhat a shocked state, if they were ok.
The mother said that they were fine and that it was her fault and she was sorry it happened.
I said no harm done as long as the child is alright, make sure she is ok.
She said thank you and walked away carrying the child and I cycled away.
Jesus, you really have to expect the worst to happen and be prepared.

Darkglasses

karl_m wrote: »

Worst experience cycling today. I in no way completely blame the mother, you could argue I had a little blame too. But the dangers of cycling in town is startling. Luckily no one was hurt.
I was cycling down Leeson Street, just outside the Ilac Shopping Centre.
I was green Light for me and three cars were ahead.
The cars passed the traffic lights, and people started to walk across the road.
They all stopped when they saw me and I was continuing cycling down the road.
A mother and child at the far end of the group of people ran across the road.
By the time I saw them they were too close to avoid, so I squeezed the brakes, slowed down and hoped for the best.
I didn't directly hit the mother or child, but did hit through them and knocked them both down and I fell of the bike.
The mother got up straight away and went to the child, the child was crying but didn't have any visible injuries, I was fine.
I went over and asked, in somewhat a shocked state, if they were ok.
The mother said that they were fine and that it was her fault and she was sorry it happened.
I said no harm done as long as the child is alright, make sure she is ok.
She said thank you and walked away carrying the child and I cycled away.
Jesus, you really have to expect the worst to happen and be prepared.

Don't really see how it was in any way your fault, maybe a ring of the bell would have helped? Fair play for keeping your cool after the accident. Many people only look for cars on the road, not bikes or motorbikes.

karl_m

Darkglasses wrote: »

Don't really see how it was in any way your fault, maybe a ring of the bell would have helped? Fair play for keeping your cool after the accident. Many people only look for cars on the road, not bikes or motorbikes.

Thanks dude, still a shock though. I don't have a bell, I think it's wise to invest in one now.
It's like many people are oblivious of bikes unless it's right there in front of you.
Hopefully I wont experience it again but I now know anything can happen.

Jayo!

You are correct. Respect for the cyclist needs to increase.
Please take the next step and contact the RSA and request that a program be put in place to educate Irish motorists on the subject.
There is a place on the RSA website to leave a comment.
If we all do this we can make a difference.

karl_m

Jayo! wrote: »

You are correct. Respect for the cyclist needs to increase.
Please take the next step and contact the RSA and request that a program be put in place to educate Irish motorists on the subject.
There is a place on the RSA website to leave a comment.
If we all do this we can make a difference.

Just sent them that.

Worst experience cycling today. I in no way completely blame the mother, you could argue I had a little blame too. But the dangers of cycling in town is startling. Luckily no one was hurt.
I was cycling down Parnell Street, just outside the Ilac Shopping Centre.
I was green Light for me and three cars were ahead.
The cars passed the traffic lights, and people started to walk across the road from the right.
They all stopped when they saw me and I was continuing cycling down the road checking left to ensure no one was walking out in front of me.
Suddenly a mother and child at the far end of the group of people from the right ran across the road.
By the time I saw them they were too close to avoid, so I squeezed the brakes, slowed down and hoped for the best.
I didn't directly hit the mother or child, but did hit through them and knocked them both down and I fell of the bike.
The mother got up straight away and went to the child, the child was crying but didn't have any visible injuries, I was fine.
I went over and asked, in somewhat a shocked state, if they were ok.
The mother said that they were fine and that it was her fault and she was sorry it happened.
I said no harm done as long as the child is alright, make sure she is ok.
She said thank you and walked away carrying the child and I cycled away.
Jesus, you really have to expect the worst to happen and be prepared.
I would just like to highlight the fact that Cyclists are generally ignored my other motorists or pedestrians unless they are right up beside or in front of said people, and generally too late as can be seen in my experience.
I can't begin to express the number of close encounters I have witnessed from cycling, and I've only been cycling a year.
We need better maintained cycle paths and awareness of us. Thank you.

SerialComplaint

karl_m wrote: »

I was cycling down Leeson Street, just outside the Ilac Shopping Centre.

I'm confused! The ILAC Centre is nowhere near Leeson St.

karl_m

SerialComplaint wrote: »

I'm confused! The ILAC Centre is nowhere near Leeson St.

Sorry Parnell street. Jebus I got that wrong :L

Korvanica

karl_m wrote: »

Sorry Parnell street. Jebus I got that wrong :L

HOW DARE YOU ! This is why people hate us Cyclists ! :pac: