Is it Legal to put a 220Volt plug socket in a bathroom?

johnwest288

Just wondering why the bathrooms in our house have no plugs, I was going to have a sparks wire up a 220 volt plug into the bathroom, Away from the wate of course. Is this legal? Bad Idea?

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Unless he's a cowboy he won't do it. Its against the regs.

2011

johnwest288 wrote: »

Just wondering why the bathrooms in our house have no plugs, I was going to have a sparks wire up a 220 volt plug into the bathroom, Away from the wate of course. Is this legal? Bad Idea?

No, it is not permitted (in Ireland) to install a standard mains voltage socket in a bathroom.

paddy147

johnwest288 wrote: »

Just wondering why the bathrooms in our house have no plugs, I was going to have a sparks wire up a 220 volt plug into the bathroom, Away from the wate of course. Is this legal? Bad Idea?

Why do you want a normal 220v socket in a bathroom has to be the question??

If the sparks is a decent propper sparks,then he will tell you straight away NO.

ted1

Just out of intrest why does Ireland ban it, but other countries allow it.

who the fug

ted1 wrote: »

Just out of intrest why does Ireland ban it, but other countries allow it.

water and electricty combined with stupidity equals dead people

ted1

But why do other countries allow it? Do they have many accidents?

johnwest288

belive it or not in thailand the hotel i stayed had a 220 volt plug in the shower cubicle and a light switch. I used to be mortified . where you ask in the shower cubicle? RIght under the shower head with the water spray pointing away. lol I KID YOU NOT

I decided to get a light fitting with a shaver plug fitting in argos thanks for info

heinbloed

But why do other countries allow it? Do they have many accidents?

They are fused in other countries. And regulations do exist there as well (min. distances, fuse resistance, max. power etc.).

Once the correct installation is done there is no risk of personal accidents.

Bruthal

heinbloed wrote: »

They are fused in other countries. And regulations do exist there as well (min. distances, fuse resistance, max. power etc.).

Once the correct installation is done there is no risk of personal accidents.

Fused? Fuses wont save a person from being electrocuted. A person in direct contact wont blow a 1 amp fuse, nevermind the size needed for a socket circuit.

There is no better protection than an RCD, except for isolated supplies through a transformer.

Its not true to say there is no risk with a properly installed installation. I myself dont think its quite as dangerous having a 230v socket in a bathroom, with RCD protection, as some would believe. But its not a bad thing not having them allowed either. There is no need for them anyway.

Solair

The Irish electrical regulations do not permit it, so don't do it.

However, it is normal in other countries to have RCD-protected sockets in the bathroom. Often, near the sink.

I would be far more concerned about the fact that the majority of Irish (and British) bathrooms have non-RCD protected circuits that could quite easily be touched e.g. mirror lighting, a lot of which is definitely not water-proof. Ceiling lights, fans mounted too close to showers, even the power feeding the isolated shaver socket itself.

Also, you've often got various electrical heaters.

I just do not understand the logic of the regulations here and in Britain, certainly the older ones anyway.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a 10mA RCD requirement on any circuit feeding a bathroom thus, reducing shock problems to an absolute minimum but not having all this fuss over isolating shaver sockets!

I also do not really understand why a fixed appliance, often connected with a flex e.g. a towel rail or a hand-dryer / hair dryer in a hotel bathroom is fine, yet a plugged in device isn't.

Likewise, we go to huge lengths banning absolutely everything in a bathroom then quite happily put in a splash-proof (not fully water proof) electric water heater straight into the shower cubicle i.e. the electric shower and are quite happy to just connect that to a 30mA RCD.

To my mind, the regs here do not make logical sense as a complete package of safety measures.

charlemont

ted1 wrote: »

But why do other countries allow it? Do they have many accidents?

Well we are Irish, So alcohol, electricity and bathrooms would be a toxic trinity..

No is the answer anyway.

heinbloed

Solair wrote:

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a 10mA RCD requirement on any circuit feeding a bathroom thus, reducing shock problems to an absolute minimum but not having all this fuss over isolating shaver sockets!

Correct. Better: have all wet areas including kitchen and utility rooms properly fused.
We here in Ireland allow for electric lamps and mighty pumps in (public) swimming pools. If this can be made safe - why not in a household ?

meercat

Solair wrote: »

The Irish electrical regulations do not permit it, so don't do it.

However, it is normal in other countries to have RCD-protected sockets in the bathroom. Often, near the sink.

I would be far more concerned about the fact that the majority of Irish (and British) bathrooms have non-RCD protected circuits that could quite easily be touched e.g. mirror lighting, a lot of which is definitely not water-proof. Ceiling lights, fans mounted too close to showers, even the power feeding the isolated shaver socket itself.

Also, you've often got various electrical heaters.

I just do not understand the logic of the regulations here and in Britain, certainly the older ones anyway.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a 10mA RCD requirement on any circuit feeding a bathroom thus, reducing shock problems to an absolute minimum but not having all this fuss over isolating shaver sockets!

I also do not really understand why a fixed appliance, often connected with a flex e.g. a towel rail or a hand-dryer / hair dryer in a hotel bathroom is fine, yet a plugged in device isn't.

Likewise, we go to huge lengths banning absolutely everything in a bathroom then quite happily put in a splash-proof (not fully water proof) electric water heater straight into the shower cubicle i.e. the electric shower and are quite happy to just connect that to a 30mA RCD.

To my mind, the regs here do not make logical sense as a complete package of safety measures.

the current regulations require all bathroom circuits to be rcd protected(including light circuits)

Solair

heinbloed wrote: »

Solair wrote:



Correct. Better: have all wet areas including kitchen and utility rooms properly fused.
We here in Ireland allow for electric lamps and mighty pumps in (public) swimming pools. If this can be made safe - why not in a household ?

Fuses do not protect you against electric shock. They only protect against overloading of a circuit (i.e. fire risks).

You've two basic ways of protecting from fire damage / shock:

1) Fuse - blows when the current flowing through a circuit exceeds a predefined value. In modern wiring these are resettable miniture circuit breakers (MCBs) rather than old-fashioned wire fuses, but they do the same job. These prevent cables from overloading and thus prevent fires if there is a fault or a short circuit. They would provide you with little/no protection against electrocution, especially in a wet area!

2) Residual Current Device (RCD) - This basically measures the difference in current between the live and neutral. If there is a significant difference, it assumes something is returning via another path e.g. your body, and shuts off the supply. These protect against deadly shocks.

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

The Irish electrical regulations do not permit it, so don't do it.

However, it is normal in other countries to have RCD-protected sockets in the bathroom. Often, near the sink.

I would be far more concerned about the fact that the majority of Irish (and British) bathrooms have non-RCD protected circuits that could quite easily be touched e.g. mirror lighting, a lot of which is definitely not water-proof. Ceiling lights, fans mounted too close to showers, even the power feeding the isolated shaver socket itself.

Also, you've often got various electrical heaters.

I just do not understand the logic of the regulations here and in Britain, certainly the older ones anyway.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a 10mA RCD requirement on any circuit feeding a bathroom thus, reducing shock problems to an absolute minimum but not having all this fuss over isolating shaver sockets!

I also do not really understand why a fixed appliance, often connected with a flex e.g. a towel rail or a hand-dryer / hair dryer in a hotel bathroom is fine, yet a plugged in device isn't.

Likewise, we go to huge lengths banning absolutely everything in a bathroom then quite happily put in a splash-proof (not fully water proof) electric water heater straight into the shower cubicle i.e. the electric shower and are quite happy to just connect that to a 30mA RCD.

To my mind, the regs here do not make logical sense as a complete package of safety measures.

A 10ma RCD wont really stop a person getting higher than a 10ma shock, and will likely be more prone to nuisance tripping. So a 30ma one is adequate. Its all about how fast they operate, and not letting a continuous current above 30ma to flow. But an RCD will briefly allow currents far higher than their trip imbalance current to flow before they trip. So the difference between a 10ma and 30ma would be small in terms of shock protection.



An properly working RCD gives very good protection to a user of a shower.



Fixed wired appliances are safer in hotel bathrooms etc than plugging in the items, because if sockets were used, people staying could plug anything they like in, including their own more dangerous items less suitable for bathrooms than the hand dryers etc.

Bruthal

heinbloed wrote: »

Solair wrote:



Correct. Better: have all wet areas including kitchen and utility rooms properly fused.
We here in Ireland allow for electric lamps and mighty pumps in (public) swimming pools. If this can be made safe - why not in a household ?

A swimming pool pump is remote from the pool. The metal piping will be earthed. A fault in the pump, even a live conductor in the water in the pipe will have no effect on the water in the pool. Water is not that good a concuctor. This is different from a person with wet hands in direct contact with live points.

It adds to direct contact shock intensity because the CSA of the wet hand contact is high, but the conductor length is extremely low i.e. a very thin film of water between the hand and a live conductor, which greatly reduces skin contact resistance.

Solair

The US regs mandate GFCIs/RCDs set at 5mA within 25 ms sockets in bathrooms and kitchens near sinks.

30mA is arguably too high as it's still higher than the level of current that can cause cardiac arrest, especially in bare feet on a wet surface.

While it seems to work reasonably well in practice perhaps due to the trip times being fast enough to disconnect before damage is done, one could argue for 5mA too!

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

The US regs mandate a lot of 10mA local RCDs on sockets in bathrooms and kitchens.

30mA is arguably too high as it's still higher than the level of current that can cause cardiac arrest, especially in bare feet on a wet surface.

They probably have it on 110v there, i dont know.

But at 230v, any lower than 30 ma is heading for nuisance tripping all over the place, especially on multiple circuits fed from them. A 10ma one might work for individual circuits alright, such as an RCBO maybe.

As for the 30ma causing cardiac arrest especially on wet floors in bare feet, well if the RCD is going to trip, then them items wont matter too much. At least they would ensure quick tripping. I tripped them once or twice myself accidently. Still got a decent shock from it.

But as i was saying, a shock received with a 10ma one will still be very briefly at the same level as if no RCD was used. When contact is first made, it is simply a live conductor through the RCD contacts. Its all up to how fast it trips. So if a good enough contact is made to allow 50ma flow as an example, then 50ma will flow, briefly, regardless of whether its a 30 or 10mA RCD.

The difference between 10 and 30 would be that the 10 one would trip if enough contact is made to allow only 20mA to flow, but the 30ma wouldnt.

Stove Fan

When I wired a new build in France I had to put a socket in zone 2 from memory next to the basin:eek: If I didn't fit a socket in the bathroom I would of failed the CONSUEL inspection as it's a mandatory requirement.

I thought it was madness, but there you go:rolleyes:

It had to be on it's own dedicated cable with RCD protection.

Stove Fan:)

paddy147

So Heinbloed is now "suddenly" an electrician,knows all the regultions for "Ireland" and also knows better than everyone else.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Solair

Stove Fan wrote: »

When I wired a new build in France I had to put a socket in zone 2 from memory next to the basin:eek: If I didn't fit a socket in the bathroom I would of failed the CONSUEL inspection as it's a mandatory requirement.

I thought it was madness, but there you go:rolleyes:

It had to be on it's own dedicated cable with RCD protection.

Stove Fan:)

The logic of that in France is that if you don't provide sufficient sockets, someone might use an extension cord from the hallway outside.

The sockets are adequately RCD protected to be safe and it's complaint with French regulations and French people generally don't get electrocuté every morning while brushing their teeth.

ted1

Never mind hair dryers, a lot of placed in Europe have washing machines and dryers on in the WC.

heinbloed

I can confirm the observations of Stove Fan and ted1, continental Europe allows for electric sockets/outlets in bathrooms (provided the safety regulations are met).

See here for an older recall where a batch of European bathroom furnitures made it to the UK:

http://www.iaai-uk-productrecall.org.uk/recalls/recall_product_detail.asp?recall_ID=166

And they are still sold, here a page from the latest German cataloque:

http://www.allibert.com/de/fiche_detaillee.asp?type=voir_plus&MenuNiv1=Bad&MenuNiv2=Spiegelschr%C3%A4nke&MenuNiv2_BE=Holzschr%C3%A4nke&MenuNiv3_BE=Harmony%C2%B2

As said by other posters already: Europeans don't drop dead every time they use the bathroom.

For those who travel with their eyes open: IKEA show rooms on the continent show ("Whirlpool"-) washing machines and cloth dryers installed in bathrooms - as propably any furniture shop does over there.

To answer the OP's question: it is legal everywhere in Europe to install a 230V AC socket in the bathroom. Except in the UK and in Ireland.
Maybe the other (former) colonies like Cyprus,Malta and Gibraltar still follow the empirial electric rules?

Max_Charger

ted1 wrote: »

Never mind hair dryers, a lot of placed in Europe have washing machines and dryers on in the WC.

I'm open to correction but I don't think there's anything stopping someone doing that here either so long as they're fitted into fused outlets and not sockets? Makes sense really because the room is going to have water supply and drainage anyway and takes the noise anyway from the kitchen.

Solair

This seems to be the situation in the UK nowadays :

http://www.voltimum.ie/page.jsp?id=/content/NICEIC/contractors/questions/Question1&fullsize=no&noborder=yes&universe=consult.experts_hottopics.partl

I'm not sure if Ireland's the same though. However, the regulations are generally inspired by CENELEC and IEC harmonised ones nowadays.

Bruthal

heinbloed wrote: »

As said by other posters already: Europeans don't drop dead every time they use the bathroom.

No, because once they drop dead, they cant use it again:pac: