What to do with the Smithwick's site?

Einhard

So, it seems powers that be are contemplating purchasing the Smithwick's site for €2.1 million, which for one think is a great investment in Kilkenny, both now and for the future. It raises the question though, of what they're going to do with the site. I think that a residential or retail development would represent a glorious opportunity wasted- some form of cultural attraction would be far better. I like John McGuinness' suggestion for a Norman museum, although I hear that's what's envisaged for Mary's Church, but his notion of a university is plain daft. One can't just magic up a seat of higher learning simply because one has a nice site! Although, saying that, it might be a good spot for an outreach campus like Maynooth has in Kieran's, with a cultural institute attached. Apart from that, a small riverside park would be nice, with slipways and maybe even a boathouse.

Any other ideas or suggestions?

catbear

As far as I'm concerned Fianna Fail are a crony infested nepotistic cesspool but on this one matter I too think a Norman museum is a good idea too. And in the Norman spirit we can bring back the gallows and the other dark punishments to deal with Fianna Fail.

ft9

A new Dunnes Stores perhaps?

(are we still doing that?)

Cabaal

catbear wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned Fianna Fail are a crony infested nepotistic cesspool but on this one matter I too think a Norman museum is a good idea too. And in the Norman spirit we can bring back the gallows and the other dark punishments to deal with Fianna Fail.

Don't worry catbear, you'll likely be suggesting the exact same thing for FG and Labour in a few years once they are through with us

Power corrupts remember...SF are barely in the doors and they've managed to get into the news for ripping off 50k worth of printer supply's, and thats only the small stuff we know about now.

fabbydabby

Kilkenny city and county punches way above its weight as a centre for the arts and I would love to see a development in the Brewery site that would transform that area of Kilkenny into a centre point of culture.

Film makers, theatre groups, music and performance, photography, an art gallery, a museum displaying our town's norman (and indeed brewing and hurling) history, a centre of learning to foster the interest of younger people in our medieval city's arts and heritage.

I would love if the town as a whole could benefit from this place... a park would be nice too perhaps and maybe tributes to famous Kilkennians - James Hoban, Edmund Rice, Johnathan Swift (honorary!), George Berkley, the Butlers, the Rothes, Lady Desert, Alice Kyteler....

I would love if they 'opened up the floor' for kilkenny folk to get their 2 cents in as to what they would like to see in their new urban centre for the people!

Or better yet, why not ignore all of the above, raze the building on the site and build a big fck-off inner ring relief road though it instead?

Captain Havoc

It's difficult to know. I don't think another shopping centre should be on the cards, there's the mart if they feel the need to develop another one. The site is big and could accommodate many ideas. Obviously the abbey will have to stay and they could be while as the site probably has archaeological significance. THe brewery has been hugely important in shaping the city, my father, grandfather and great-grandfather worked there and I don't think this would be an unfamiliar story amongst many people in the city. My grandfather worked there for 70 years, that's not a typo either, he went in when he was 16 helping his father and retired when he was 86 as a tour guide.
I like the idea of a public centre that could cater for many events, arts week, the cat laughs, rhythm and roots, large concerts and perhaps another festival. I also like the idea of a norman museum or centre as I don't think there is one in Ireland and obviously they hugely shaped the country. Something I feel could work would be a medieval village celebrating confederate Ireland, with a gated entrance and inside handmade arts and crafts shops.

Lord ButterSlip

I think a Norman Museum is a great idea. Last I heard St Marys was too small for a proper museum so to house it the old brewery buildings/build a new one would be great. Also a 3rd level something or other would be great aswell. Kilkenny as a centre for the Arts would be a wonderful place to build/start an outreach place or even, you never know, a University of Kilkenny. Just like the one started back in the 1600's.


Just to let everyone know:
May 24th 2012, in the Thosel Chamber: A public meeting about the brewery site with keynote speakers and an open mic session. Go along and say what you think the site should be used for.

Lord ButterSlip

Hope the inner relief road/super highway gets the scrap and they use the money for the brewery instead.

Threadhead

Everything fabbydabby said.

Culture, arts and heritage are what tourists come to Kilkenny for. There's a huge appetite for that representation of Kilkenny. We don't need any more retail. It's a massive area in the heart of the medieval part of the city. It's the perfect area to be developed into the cultural heart of the city.

Mankbag

Yep, Fabbydabby and Threadhead have it right. This is a chance to reinvent the city's image and local tourism for the next 50 years.

catbear

Threadhead wrote: »

Culture, arts and heritage are what tourists come to Kilkenny for. .

Don't forget the stag and hen tourists too, they come to get pissed.

Davidian_ie

Captain Havoc wrote: »

It's difficult to know. I don't think another shopping centre should be on the cards, there's the mart if they feel the need to develop another one. The site is big and could accommodate many ideas. Obviously the abbey will have to stay and they could be while as the site probably has archaeological significance. THe brewery has been hugely important in shaping the city, my father, grandfather and great-grandfather worked there and I don't think this would be an unfamiliar story amongst many people in the city. My grandfather worked there for 70 years, that's not a typo either, he went in when he was 16 helping his father and retired when he was 86 as a tour guide.
I like the idea of a public centre that could cater for many events, arts week, the cat laughs, rhythm and roots, large concerts and perhaps another festival. I also like the idea of a norman museum or centre as I don't think there is one in Ireland and obviously they hugely shaped the country. Something I feel could work would be a medieval village celebrating confederate Ireland, with a gated entrance and inside handmade arts and crafts shops.

I thought you'd be out campaigning for something like this http://www.cuchulainncyclingpark.com/

Do you think they can make it work?

Captain Havoc

Davidian_ie wrote: »

I thought you'd be out campaigning for something like this http://www.cuchulainncyclingpark.com/

Do you think they can make it work?

Not my sort of thing but it would be great. If I was to have my dream and totally unrealistic development for the site it would be a 5,000 - 10,000 seater multipurpose stadium, which would be primarily used by the reborn league of Ireland club: Kilkenny City AFC. I think one of the reasons the club got few fans was the fact it wasn't within normal walking distance of the city. There would be no track around the pitch so only good for soccer, rugby and that sort of thing. Under the stands have sporting offices and stores so invite various sports stores to set up such a bicycle shop, a soccer shop, a boxing, martial arts store, a rugby store etc..... and mix and match those stores where appropriate. Sporting experts like physios etc... to take up a spot. These would all pay rent helping to keep the whole thing afloat. The place would be known as the place to go if you're into sport. That's just a dream though. I think because I'm a cycling mod and on the committee of the cycling club most people who don't know me don't realise soccer is my primary sport.

Realisticaly I don't see why you couldn't put a BMX/ Skate park as part of the new development. As for the velodrome, it could work as there are a lot of cyclists in the south east, particularly in Waterford. It would be great to see it happen in Dundalk, they've a fantastic club. My sources tell me though that Cycling Ireland have an indoor track on the cards for Dublin and I don't know if having so many velodromes is a good thing or not. Mountain bike clubs come and go and I'd say track cycling would be the same. We've lovely countryside in this country and the thought of cycling around in circles really wouldn't do it for me.

Last night I was wearing my boards.ie jersey and I thought someone shouted Captain Havoc at me from a car, he could equally have been shouting "bike w****rs" at the group, it's kind of hard to make out at that speed. :pac: For the cyclists out there, if anyone beeps or shouts at you, always smile and wave, if they're friendly they'll think you're waving back and if they're being agressive they'll think you're winding them up

Well that ends this nonsensicle horse manure, well done for getting this far.

Bowlardo

Lord ButterSlip wrote: »

May 24th 2012, in the Thosel Chamber: A public meeting about the brewery site with keynote speakers and an open mic session. Go along and say what you think the site should be used for.

Is that upstairs in the town hall? what time would be on at?
Who would have the final say on what they go a head with?

it's a massive site.

once they don't put a car park, hotels, ****ty appartments, more dunnes stores / shopping center I'll be reasonably happy.

Captain Havoc

Bowlardo wrote: »

bike track & skate parks? - what a load of pants

I would love to see a skate park in Kilkenny, it's such a wonderful sport for balance and flexibility and a skate park would be relatively cheap to set up. Anything that encourages people to move their bodies is a good thing.

Jimmy Iovine

Captain Havoc wrote: »

Not my sort of thing but it would be great. If I was to have my dream and totally unrealistic development for the site it would be a 5,000 - 10,000 seater multipurpose stadium, which would be primarily used by the reborn league of Ireland club: Kilkenny City AFC. I think one of the reasons the club got few fans was the fact it wasn't within normal walking distance of the city. There would be no track around the pitch so only good for soccer, rugby and that sort of thing. Under the stands have sporting offices and stores so invite various sports stores to set up such a bicycle shop, a soccer shop, a boxing, martial arts store, a rugby store etc..... and mix and match those stores where appropriate. Sporting experts like physios etc... to take up a spot. These would all pay rent helping to keep the whole thing afloat. The place would be known as the place to go if you're into sport. That's just a dream though. I think because I'm a cycling mod and on the committee of the cycling club most people who don't know me don't realise soccer is my primary sport.

Realisticaly I don't see why you couldn't put a BMX/ Skate park as part of the new development. As for the velodrome, it could work as there are a lot of cyclists in the south east, particularly in Waterford. It would be great to see it happen in Dundalk, they've a fantastic club. My sources tell me though that Cycling Ireland have an indoor track on the cards for Dublin and I don't know if having so many velodromes is a good thing or not. Mountain bike clubs come and go and I'd say track cycling would be the same. We've lovely countryside in this country and the thought of cycling around in circles really wouldn't do it for me.

Last night I was wearing my boards.ie jersey and I thought someone shouted Captain Havoc at me from a car, he could equally have been shouting "bike w****rs" at the group, it's kind of hard to make out at that speed. :pac: For the cyclists out there, if anyone beeps or shouts at you, always smile and wave, if they're friendly they'll think you're waving back and if they're being agressive they'll think you're winding them up

Well that ends this nonsensicle horse manure, well done for getting this far.

The stadium is a brilliant shout. I remember having a conversation with you on the Soccer forum about Buckley Park and it's disadvantages. It is a bit unrealistic but it is a genuinely great idea.

I had a look at the dimensions of the brewery there and it's 25 acres. I also had a look at the dimensions for Croke Park and it is 16 acres. Size isn't a problem there. Underground car parks could be built to accommodate the match traffic from further afield while a majority of the spectators would be locals within easy walking distance.

Maybe auctioning off the naming rights for the stadium could prove a useful way of generating the money for the construction. Who knows maybe some international airline will swoop in and offer €20 million a year to call it the United Continental Holdings Stadium or something to that effect :P.

No but seriously it's a very good idea. It might encourage international or inter-provincial events to be held in the city. I remember international u-21 soccer matches being played here years ago. Leinster v Munster in an underage or second string match might attract a good crowd. A game/event a week would not be beyond all the realms of possibility.

It'd be a great chance as well to get Kilkenny City back up and running. Involve the local clubs in the whole thing. Encourage them to get their schoolboy players to go to the matches by offering discounts. Get the local schools involved as well. How many children in Kilkenny have actually ever seen a professional/semi-pro soccer match in the flesh? I'd say less than 5%. There is no opportunity for them. The kids are obsessed with it. I know the standard may not be as good as the Premier League but by having attractive offers and things like mascots at the matches then the children will gain an interest.

The children will inevitably drag along their parents. That'll result in another load of people going to the match. Then maybe have deals for students in college. They shouldn't be as hard to attract in my opinion. Many of them, myself included, would remember Kilkenny City and probably went out to watch a few games when they were younger. Get them interested and they should come back. There is almost nothing to do at times on a Friday night in Kilkenny. The choice in the cinema is brutal and realistically pints every Friday is an expensive hobby. €5/10 in for students for 2 hours worth of entertainment is decent value. It would offer people a chance to meet up on the Friday and possibly plan out what they were going to do over the weekend or whatever.

The job opportunities with this project would be great. Plumbers, electricians, carpenters would all be needed to build the stadium. Then when it's built people could be hired to work in the shops, as car park attendants, as security in the stadium and so on.

It is slightly over-the-top I suppose but if the right people were put in charge of it then I have no doubt that it would be a success. We are a very sporting county and it is a shame that hurling is the only sport that is ever played at a grand scale here. I love hurling and go to as many games in Nowlan Park as I can but there is a great opportunity here to promote a wide range of other sports and it'd be a pity if the opportunity was passed up on.

I really hope that another block of apartments or offices are built there. It has been tried a load of times and it just won't work again. The ones on the Comer Road just down from the Barracks have been a disaster. Ladbrokes, the tanning salon and the Polish shop are the only shops still there I think.

Lord ButterSlip

Not sure what time its on at yet, but yes upstairs in the town hall. Final say will probably go towards whatever is cheapest/most people in favour.

fabbydabby

I had a look at the dimensions of the brewery there and it's 25 acres.

Wow.... 25 Acres? Just...Wow.

That's like having half of the entire castle park right in the centre of the town. Just think of the possibilities!

If the council make a balls of this one, so help me God I will make them pay.

I will hunt them down individually and tie them up and make them listen to looped recordings of Havoc going on about cycling for days on end.

Deliverance XXV

A stadium/museum & arts center would definitely get my vote. It would be a fantastic attraction for the city.
The only problem with the stadium would be traffic - Could you imagine that area on matchday?!
If a stadium were to get planning permission it would probably only be accepted on grounds that a new road is built to relieve pressure from the center, which brings us to 'that road'.
The road would probably would solve a lot of problems though.

Jimmy Iovine

Deliverance XXV wrote: »

A stadium/museum & arts center would definitely get my vote. It would be a fantastic attraction for the city.
The only problem with the stadium would be traffic - Could you imagine that area on matchday?!
If a stadium were to get planning permission it would probably only be accepted on grounds that a new road is built to relieve pressure from the center, which brings us to 'that road'.
The road would probably would solve a lot of problems though.

It'd be bad alright but a lot of the people who would be going to it would be within walking distance of the stadium.

Also there could be two entrances to it. One coming from the Dunnes Stores side, and the other from the Irishtown side. They could even build a walkway across the river that leads right to the door of the stadium. This would encourage people on the other side of town to walk to the matches, and would cut 5/10 minutes off their walks. I'd be able to walk to it from Meadow Way in about 5 minutes.

I think traffic problems should be the least of their worries. Traffic calming measures would have to be put in place at the blind corner in Irishtown. It wouldn't be too bad though in my opinion.

Captain Havoc

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

It'd be bad alright but a lot of the people who would be going to it would be within walking distance of the stadium.

Also there could be two entrances to it. One coming from the Dunnes Stores side, and the other from the Irishtown side. They could even build a walkway across the river that leads right to the door of the stadium. This would encourage people on the other side of town to walk to the matches, and would cut 5/10 minutes off their walks. I'd be able to walk to it from Meadow Way in about 5 minutes.

I think traffic problems should be the least of their worries. Traffic calming measures would have to be put in place at the blind corner in Irishtown. It wouldn't be too bad though in my opinion.

Traffic would be bad enough I'd say, there'd be visiting fans, various staff vehicles etc.... but don't forget LOI games are Friday evening so it's hardly going to annoy anyone plus there's parking in Dunnes so it's all good. It'd also be awesome for the pubs across the the road, someone might be able to make a few quid in the widows and Anna Condas. I don't think you'd need to build a footbridge, you could create a paved walkway from Green's Bridge down along the river and then a small footbridge over the Breagagh (which you could do for any development). I'd say the sessions in the Pump House would be savage, into one of the pubs for five past six, knock back a few, then across the road for kick-off at quarter to eight and into the Pump House two hours later, Saturday mornings would never feel the same again.

Captain Havoc

fabbydabby wrote: »

When the council make a balls of this one, so help me God I will make them pay.

FTFY, I'll start recording ASAP :pac:

Jimmy Iovine

Captain Havoc wrote: »

Traffic would be bad enough I'd say, there'd be visiting fans, various staff vehicles etc.... but don't forget LOI games are Friday evening so it's hardly going to annoy anyone plus there's parking in Dunnes so it's all good. It'd also be awesome for the pubs across the the road, someone might be able to make a few quid in the widows and Anna Condas. I don't think you'd need to build a footbridge, you could create a paved walkway from Green's Bridge down along the river and then a small footbridge over the Breagagh (which you could do for any development). I'd say the sessions in the Pump House would be savage, into one of the pubs for five past six, knock back a few, then across the road for kick-off at quarter to eight and into the Pump House two hours later, Saturday mornings would never feel the same again.

Yea Dunnes would be free parking as well.

I'd forgotten about building the pathway down by the river. That'd make much more sense and cut just as much time off the journey.

The sessions would be pretty immense alright. Every publican in that area would be in favour of it no doubt. Then you have Joe's and the various Indian/Chinese takeaways in the area that would benefit from the increased business as well. Taxis would be all booked up late on the Friday night. People that might be shutting up early on a Friday would now be able to stay open later and earn some much needed money for themselves.

The more I think about it the more I feel that it's a great idea. We have some amazing players in Kilkenny. There are a few lads playing in the CBS Secondary who are in the Airtricity at the moment. They're playing for Waterford and UCD. If we had Kilkenny City back up and going then the likes of them would be able to play for the team. Why lose our talent to other counties when we could just as easily provide an opportunity for these guys to develop their skills in Kilkenny before making a move to England or wherever else.

As I see it there are more positives to this whole idea of the stadium and Kilkenny City than there are negatives.

hi5

I take it you guys are joking about the football stadium??
Now that the Worlds end and Dunnes stores has been beaten to death,the new joke is a football stadium in the middle of town,no??

fabbydabby

I think they're serious.

Lord ButterSlip

The size of the site being bought is 10.6 acres and the council owns another bit which is 1.7 acres. The abbey belongs to the OPW.

Any stadium would be great but because of the layout of the site anyone playing a game of football in it, for example, would have to use the abbey as one of the goalposts.

ft9

I think it would be a ridiculous spot for a stadium, although I do love the idea of such a centre. Imagine the traffic chaos it would cause.

Something like that would have to be situated close to the ring road/motorway.

road_high

Personally would hate to see Council involvement to this extent. I don't see the need for public sector dinosaurs to be involved to such an extent to be honest.
Their role needs to encompass the regulatory and planning side and provision of services. Apart from that, i fail to see what they bring to the table?
I would be scared if they are involved, the site will be left to lie derelict for ages. Not excactly noted for their efficiency now are they?

I would love to see Diageo keep a hand in as regards as visitor centre/micro brewery. I think that could be very successful. As for the rest of the site, I'm a little bit stumped...perhaps our own little IFSC in Kilkenny with hefty IDA/enterprise Ireland backing? There's already over 1,000 people employed in various companies in the city in financial services related areas so maybe we could build on this more.
Perhaps some kind of Third level arts college?
Something that reflects Kilkenny's strengths and preserve the city's unique character. The area cannot be left to die and be an eyesore. That's what would happen with council backing. They lack the cash (most importantly) and should not be involved. When I think county council I think inefficiency, cronyism and strangling of business.

Angus MacGyver

Id like to see an IFI type cinema.

catbear

Building on Kilkennys rep as a piss up capital I think a Micro Brewery could be a runner. Private investment in return for a fixed low rent for a while to get it established. Run a whole variety of beers, have a festival but incorporating food etc...
The Norman museum could be part of the tour etc....

Jimmy Iovine

hi5 wrote: »

I take it you guys are joking about the football stadium??
Now that the Worlds end and Dunnes stores has been beaten to death,the new joke is a football stadium in the middle of town,no??

I was being serious about it. The location would be very poor I know, but I feel that a stadium somewhere would be a great idea. If it coincided with the re-emergence of Kilkenny City and the stadium was located within walking distance of the housing estates in the city then I feel it'd be a success. One of the reasons Buckley Park was a failure was that it was way too far away from the city, even in a car. Drive from across the river and it's a 20-25 minute journey depending on traffic.

The idea of a cultural centre is probably the most realistic. Something along the lines of the Lory Meagher Heritage Centre in Tullaroan. Incorporate various aspects of Kilkenny's history into the centre. One area dedicated to the Normans, another to famous Kilkenny people, another to our sporting traditions, then of course the brewery. Hire local artists to make models of houses or a model of the brewery and make it as interactive as possible in the way that you can walk through the different houses or whatever from by gone years in the National History Museum.

The possibilities for such a project are endless. A small park with a walkway and a playground for children would be a perfect addition as well.

It might also encourage them to do something with the old swimming pool as well. The last thing you want is to spend all that money building a centre and then have an eyesore on the opposite side of the river.