Heineken Cup lessons/opportunities for IRFU

Gordon Gecko

hardybuck wrote: »

• Andrew Conway
• Dave Kearney
• Eoin O'Malley
• Rhys Ruddock
• Dominic Ryan
• Ian Madigan

There would be no benefit to the careers of any of the above players in going to Connacht.

Sure they'd get more games, most of which they'd lose, but their development as I've already said would be negatively impacted by the poorer standard of rugby and coaching. If I were in their position I'd be far happier to be scrapping tooth and nail with the likes of Johnny Sexton and Brian O' Driscoll and developing my game than getting low standard game time in the hope of being spotted by a better club.

Podge_irl

Ian Madigan and Eoin O'Malley?!? You've got to be kidding. NONE of those Leinster players would benefit much from moving but those two least of all. EOM who got to start 3 HEC games with the full Leinster team and Madigan who has spearheaded Leinster's phenomenally successful league campaign. And for that matter a player who has come on immeasurably during he season but still has areas to improve on. I think working with the best coach in Ireland might help there.

totallegend

Dave Kearney has 17 starts this season, Rhys Ruddock has 14, Madigan 15 and O'Malley 15 each. They are not HC starters (although they did all start HC games this season) but they're getting plenty of game time at the best club in Europe, they'd be mad to be looking for a move.

Conway and Ryan have been plagued by injury, they'd be no further along at Connacht than they are now.

hardybuck

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

There would be no benefit to the careers of any of the above players in going to Connacht.

Sure they'd get more games, most of which they'd lose, but their development as I've already said would be negatively impacted by the poorer standard of rugby and coaching. If I were in their position I'd be far happier to be scrapping tooth and nail with the likes of Johnny Sexton and Brian O' Driscoll and developing my game than getting low standard game time in the hope of being spotted by a better club.

Come on. They're togging out in A games this year. Some difference to getting Heineken Cup starts. What good is all the coaching if they're about 25 or 26 by the time they get a chance to put it into action!

If the coaching is indeed that fantastic, send them back for a few days per month to keep tabs on them. Or give Connacht some good coaches that we might hope to develop also.

hardybuck

Podge_irl wrote: »

Ian Madigan and Eoin O'Malley?!? You've got to be kidding. NONE of those Leinster players would benefit much from moving but those two least of all. EOM who got to start 3 HEC games with the full Leinster team and Madigan who has spearheaded Leinster's phenomenally successful league campaign. And for that matter a player who has come on immeasurably during he season but still has areas to improve on. I think working with the best coach in Ireland might help there.

Had O'Driscoll not been injured, O'Malley would have had no starts. Had Howlett not been injured, Simon Zebo would never have got a run in.

Suddenly we have two lads that have stepped in and done very well, but mightn't have been talking about if everyone had stayed fit. This is why lads need opportunities at a club like Connacht.

Podge_irl

Yes but BOD was injured and EOM did get a break. Its an utterly facile point. If he had gone to connacht and and BOD got injured both himself and Leinster would be peeved. All the players you mentioned are quite young and would gain absolutely nothing from going to connacht. If they're not breaking through at 23ish (which Madigan and EOM clearly are) then they might think about leaving.

colster

hardybuck wrote: »

Had O'Driscoll not been injured, O'Malley would have had no starts. Had Howlett not been injured, Simon Zebo would never have got a run in.

Suddenly we have two lads that have stepped in and done very well, but mightn't have been talking about if everyone had stayed fit. This is why lads need opportunities at a club like Connacht.

That's rubbish about O'Malley. BOD hardly plays any games in the League even when he's fit.

The fact is that Leinster and Munster do not have squads big enough to allow players go on loan to Connacht.

hardybuck

colster wrote: »

That's rubbish about O'Malley. BOD hardly plays any games in the League even when he's fit.

The fact is that Leinster and Munster do not have squads big enough to allow players go on loan to Connacht.

We can talk about the merits of individuals all day, but anyone who thinks that training sessions and 'A' games are going to bring lads on quicker than Heineken Cup action is crazy.

Leinster absolutely have enough players to lose a couple - they have a current squad of 40. Lads are being paid at the moment to hang around the gym and tog out in games barely above AIL standard.

Munster probably don't the depth this year. Development players were getting game time this year. They still have lads like Nagle not getting a look in.

totallegend

hardybuck wrote: »

We can talk about the merits of individuals all day, but anyone who thinks that training sessions and 'A' games are going to bring lads on quicker than Heineken Cup action is crazy.

Fair point. But what happens if we don't have four Irish teams in future Heineken Cups?

hardybuck

totallegend wrote: »

Fair point. But what happens if we don't have four Irish teams in future Heineken Cups?

We can cross that bridge when we come to it. At present we have a unique opportunity with four teams. The idea behind a loan is that it is a temporary deal, they don't have to sign two year deals or anything.

I'd prefer to see Connacht going out and winning a couple of games than losing each week. They had a crazy situation in qualifying last year and losing half of their best players.

thomond2006

Those players in question (Cronin, Hagan, Keatley, Carr) had all decided to leave before Heineken Cup was assured for Connacht.

hardybuck

thomond2006 wrote: »

Those players in question (Cronin, Hagan, Keatley, Carr) had all decided to leave before Heineken Cup was assured for Connacht.

I'm aware of that, but it was still an unusual situation for the club to find itself in.

Tox56

I would rather these young players work with the best players, and the best coaches. Connacht won't grow as a team having all these players coming and going on short term deals.

errlloyd

Can you imagine the ****ing comment pages in England if we got four teams into the H/Cup playoffs by loaning Connacht players for one season.

Just to hear them bitch and moan about how Ireland "Only has four teams to support" and plays in "Such an uncompetitive league they can give half their squad away and still win" I reckon its worth it. B

**** it, lets not send academy kids, we'll keep Dom Ryan, you take SOB for a year, it'll be serious banter.

Just for discussion sake, what is the best 23 you could make out of current Connacht players + players not currently in the top 23 of the other three provinces.

colster

hardybuck wrote: »

We can talk about the merits of individuals all day, but anyone who thinks that training sessions and 'A' games are going to bring lads on quicker than Heineken Cup action is crazy.

Leinster absolutely have enough players to lose a couple - they have a current squad of 40. Lads are being paid at the moment to hang around the gym and tog out in games barely above AIL standard.

Munster probably don't the depth this year. Development players were getting game time this year. They still have lads like Nagle not getting a look in.

Rubbish again. They have played a lot of Magners League games. Some have played Heineken Cup.
Of that squad of 40 at least a quarter of them have been away with Ireland at the World Cup, Autumn International, 6 nations and are restricted to the number of games they are allowed play for Leinster. Also, there have been a good few long term injuries (Berquist, Ryan, Horgan, O'Driscoll,).

its_phil

errlloyd wrote: »

Just for discussion sake, what is the best 23 you could make out of current Connacht players + players not currently in the top 23 of the other three provinces.

Well here's our possible XV for next year:

1. Loughney/Buckley/Wilkinson
2. Reynecke
3. White/Loughney
4. Kearney (I think he's going to overtake Swift next year)
5. McCarthy
6. Muldoon
7. Faloon/O'Connor
8. Naoupu

9. [Insert here]
10. Parks
11. O'Halloran
12. McSharry/Tonetti
13. Griffin
14. Vainikolo (Layden could overtake him)
15. Duffy

Now the positions the places that could do with addressing there would be hooker and a scrum half. But there won't be any signed at scrum half. At wing I could see Hudson doing a job but that won't happen.

Elwood has actively said he wants a hooker, a prop and a center. At hooker I'd propose Tom Sexton (even though new contract signed), a prop is suppose to be coming in Borlase and at center I'm not sure. We need a bosh merchant at 12 similar to Fa'afili this year.

Connacht is not an orphanage for the "almost there's" of Irish rugby.

It's incredibly disrespectful to the strides made by the team over the recent seasons.

They are a long way from being a competitive team, but a constant revolving door of "almosts" from every other province will do more harm than good.

colster

its_phil wrote: »

Well here's our possible XV for next year:

1. White/Loughney
2. Reynecke
3. Loughney/Buckley/Wilkinson
4. Kearney (I think he's going to overtake Swift next year)
5. McCarthy
6. Muldoon
7. Faloon/O'Connor
8. Naoupu

9. [Insert here]
10. Parks
11. O'Halloran
12. McSharry/Tonetti
13. Griffin
14. Vainikolo (Layden could overtake him)
15. Duffy

Now the positions the places that could do with addressing there would be hooker and a scrum half. But there won't be any signed at scrum half. At wing I could see Hudson doing a job but that won't happen.

Elwood has actively said he wants a hooker, a prop and a center. At hooker I'd propose Tom Sexton (even though new contract signed), a prop is suppose to be coming in Borlase and at center I'm not sure. We need a bosh merchant at 12 similar to Fa'afili this year.

Connacht have missed out on a lot of Irish Players that are/have signed for foreign teams. Ian Whitten, Tomas O'Leary, Niall Morris, Peter Stringer (on loan this season), Robin Copeland, Tom Hayes, Dennis Fogarty, Ian Humphreys, Tony Buckley, John Andress

CIARAN_BOYLE

its_phil wrote: »

Well here's our possible XV for next year:

1. White/Loughney
3. Loughney/Buckley/Wilkinson

More like
1 Wilkinson/Loughney/Buckley
3 White/Loughney/other

its_phil

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

More like
1 Wilkinson/Loughney/Buckley
3 White/Loughney/other

Sorry wasn't concentrating

its_phil

colster wrote: »

Connacht have missed out on a lot of Irish Players that are/have signed for foreign teams. Ian Whitten, Tomas O'Leary, Niall Morris, Peter Stringer (on loan this season), Robin Copeland, Tom Hayes, Dennis Fogarty, Ian Humphreys, Tony Buckley, John Andress

Morris joined Leicester Tigers, which is a lot more appealing. Whitten probably is outside our budget seen as there is already so much money been spent on signing four centers to full contracts this year. O'Leary is at the stages of his career where he's shown everything to Kidney so he's gonna take the pay day over what Connacht can offer. I'd imagine Stringer is on good money at Munster, and when he was on loan at Saracens and Newcastle his payments were probably overtaken by them. Copeland is a flanker and we don't have any need for backrows with the abundance already there and coming through the academy. Already have 5 out halfs so don't need another.

Fogarty would have been a good signing. The props you named are not better than what we have and would not be guaranteed game time.

Elwood made the shout for new players on Tuesday after we qualified because our budget suddenly increased so the money wasn't there to sign any of the players you named until Sean O'Brien made that turnover on Sunday

Gordon Gecko

hardybuck wrote: »

Come on. They're togging out in A games this year. Some difference to getting Heineken Cup starts. What good is all the coaching if they're about 25 or 26 by the time they get a chance to put it into action!

If the coaching is indeed that fantastic, send them back for a few days per month to keep tabs on them. Or give Connacht some good coaches that we might hope to develop also.

You have to be kidding. How is getting their arses handed to them in these Heineken Cup games going to develop them as players?

Yes the coaching is indeed fantastic at Leinster. The idea of loaning players and sending them back a few days a month to "keep tabs on them" is fantasy.

Plenty of good coaches out there, it's not a case of simply "giving" them from other provinces. Maybe if a bit more work was done developing home grown talent out Wests good coaches would actually want to work there.

porterbelly

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

You have to be kidding. How is getting their arses handed to them in these Heineken Cup games going to develop them as players?

Yes the coaching is indeed fantastic at Leinster. The idea of loaning players and sending them back a few days a month to "keep tabs on them" is fantasy.

Plenty of good coaches out there, it's not a case of simply "giving" them from other provinces. Maybe if a bit more work was done developing home grown talent out Wests good coaches would actually want to work there.

Who got their arses handed to them this year? Beaten comprehensively once, by Toulouse when they had their full team out and were playing their best rugby all year. A great learning curve.

Would you suggest that training is better than playing.

Also, on the coaching issue, from next season, who'll be the only province with an Irish coach? And he's also homegrown

porterbelly

its_phil wrote: »

Morris joined Leicester Tigers, which is a lot more appealing. Whitten probably is outside our budget seen as there is already so much money been spent on signing four centers to full contracts this year. O'Leary is at the stages of his career where he's shown everything to Kidney so he's gonna take the pay day over what Connacht can offer. I'd imagine Stringer is on good money at Munster, and when he was on loan at Saracens and Newcastle his payments were probably overtaken by them. Copeland is a flanker and we don't have any need for backrows with the abundance already there and coming through the academy. Already have 5 out halfs so don't need another.

Fogarty would have been a good signing. The props you named are not better than what we have and would not be guaranteed game time.

Elwood made the shout for new players on Tuesday after we qualified because our budget suddenly increased so the money wasn't there to sign any of the players you named until Sean O'Brien made that turnover on Sunday

With a a prop and a fly half who were expected to be here next year moving on, that has freed up funds. The added bonus of extra sponsorship may also be added into the pot. We certainly haven't received any windfall from the top

Tox56

porterbelly wrote: »

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

You have to be kidding. How is getting their arses handed to them in these Heineken Cup games going to develop them as players?

Yes the coaching is indeed fantastic at Leinster. The idea of loaning players and sending them back a few days a month to "keep tabs on them" is fantasy.

Plenty of good coaches out there, it's not a case of simply "giving" them from other provinces. Maybe if a bit more work was done developing home grown talent out Wests good coaches would actually want to work there.

Who got their arses handed to them this year? Beaten comprehensively once, by Toulouse when they had their full team out and were playing their best rugby all year. A great learning curve.

Would you suggest that training is better than playing.

Also, on the coaching issue, from next season, who'll be the only province with an Irish coach? And he's also homegrown

I don't agree with all of what he said, but the coaching in the Leinster set-up in particular is excellent. Playing regular Rabo games, and getting HEC gametime with top players is more beneficial to most than a season in Connacht imo.

ormond lad

colster wrote: »

That's rubbish about O'Malley. BOD hardly plays any games in the League even when he's fit.

The fact is that Leinster and Munster do not have squads big enough to allow players go on loan to Connacht.

Both Leinster and Munster have used 40+ players in the pro12 the past few seasons even taking into account both having plenty of internationals who miss chunks of the season they have big academys with plenty of players to play pro 12. They could give a player or two each to connacht.

Tox56 wrote: »

I would rather these young players work with the best players, and the best coaches. Connacht won't grow as a team having all these players coming and going on short term deals.

Connacht have a good academy system but there is pleny of players who would benefit much more playing games week in week out with connacht than playing the games with leinster when all the internationals are not around and playing for the A team when the internationals are back

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

You have to be kidding. How is getting their arses handed to them in these Heineken Cup games going to develop them as players?

Yes the coaching is indeed fantastic at Leinster. The idea of loaning players and sending them back a few days a month to "keep tabs on them" is fantasy.

Plenty of good coaches out there, it's not a case of simply "giving" them from other provinces. Maybe if a bit more work was done developing home grown talent out Wests good coaches would actually want to work there.

Theyd be playing week in week out with connacht, which in my opiniom as a player is a million times better than training with better players and playing feck all games.
Connacht have serious coaches and their coaches are doing serious work. There is great talent that is being developed out west but they lack numbers that the other provinces have.

porterbelly

The coaching setup in Leinster is second to none, that's a given

But if you don't get to put that coaching into practice on the pitch, and particularly in pressurised situations, then it doesn't really benefit you that much. I refer to pressurised situations, because lets be fair, realistic targets for Connacht like Hudson, Conway, Carr, Auva'a (Before they signed new deals) haven't been exposed to much of that, given they've won games handy when they've been playing, against weakened teams or teams who fold when they see the sight of the Leinster jersey.

CIARAN_BOYLE

porterbelly wrote: »

The coaching setup in Leinster is second to none, that's a given

But if you don't get to put that coaching into practice on the pitch, and particularly in pressurised situations, then it doesn't really benefit you that much. I refer to pressurised situations, because lets be fair, realistic targets for Connacht like Hudson, Conway, Carr, Auva'a (Before they signed new deals) haven't been exposed to much of that, given they've won games handy when they've been playing, against weakened teams or teams who fold when they see the sight of the Leinster jersey.

Auva'a turned down Connacht before he first put on a leinster jersey, I don't see why that should change now. To be honest I'm a big fan of the Connacht backrow and I think its a very good unit and that he wouldn't be needed there.

Conway is a massive talent. He came through Ireland U20s with TOH and Gilroy and at the time he was the pick out of the three. That said he has suffered injuries on every occasion that he had a real chance with Leinster. Had he not suffered those injuries I fully believe that the would have played 20+ games this season.

I do agree with you about Hudson and Carr. Hudson is a young lad with a lot of talent and he is still in the Leinster academy because of the depth there. I don't think Hudson will really feature That said who knows if Connacht made an offer. Carr accepting a new Leinster contract shows that he is willing to be a squad player if wanted at Leinster. Sure he has started 14 games this season (With one more start to come) but he has been very lucky this season between the RWC, Fitzgerald's injuries, McFaddens six nations involvement and Horgan's injury retirement. That said he knows there is every chance that Fitzgerald will leave Leinster next season and Carr is backing himself to suceed.

totallegend

Just a note re Conway; the guy is 20 years old. It's not like he's going stale at Leinster.

profitius

I had thought that Connacht would have more players beating down their door this summer especially with all the players who are in the fringes of other squads. There should be more in the next season or two, you'd think!

porterbelly

profitius wrote: »

I had thought that Connacht would have more players beating down their door this summer especially with all the players who are in the fringes of other squads. There should be more in the next season or two, you'd think!

Ara, no point bringing in a raft of young lads in for a season or 2 who have one eye on the road back out, and all leave together.

2/3 this season would have been handy, but we're better off developing our own academy players for the long term. Instead of someone like Nagle who'd always be keen to get back to Munster, we should go after Damien Browne, who can share the enforcer role with Swifty and he's a local lad to boot.

irishbucsfan

I think the Connacht pack looks really good for next year. The backs could do with a little bit of an enhancement, but it's not like Parks would use them anyway. That pack could squeeze out a few wins in the H Cup, let's pray for an easy draw!

danthefan

hardybuck wrote: »

Leinster absolutely have enough players to lose a couple - they have a current squad of 40. Lads are being paid at the moment to hang around the gym and tog out in games barely above AIL standard.

You seem fairly unable to grasp the fact none of the players you've mentioned even come close to fitting this description.

molloyjh

hardybuck wrote: »

• Andrew Conway
• Dave Kearney
• Eoin O'Malley
• Rhys Ruddock
• Dominic Ryan
• Ian Madigan

Ian Madigan has developed a huge amount this season and all the talk among Leinster fans is that another season going the way he is and he will be challenging Sexton for the starting spot. I can't see how his development could have been any better this year with Connacht. He is making a name for himself with the European champions and arguably the best team in Europe. Why in Gods name would be leave that?

Dominic Ryan has been unlucky with injury this season but had started a few big HEC games last season. Away to Clermont he made a massive tackle that was highlighted by Schmidt himself as a highlight of the season. He then scored 2 tries against Sarries in the RDS. He is coming along very well and could possibly be ahead of Jenno this time next year if he gets a clear run next season. It would be utter lunacy to leave Leinster.

Rhys Ruddock has captained the side a few times this season and has 4 HEC caps. The faith the management have shown in him this season indicates he has a future with Leinster. So why would he leave?

BOD doesn't have long left in his career and EOM has gotten the opportunity this season to show that he is the front runner for the 13 jersey when BOD does leave. If he leaves Leinster he leaves that opportunity behind him.

Dave Kearney has had a very similar season to Ian Madigan in that he has come on a lot. He is banging on the door now for HEC selection and is learning not just from great coaches but also from playing alongside his brother, Luke Fitz and Isa. His game time has increased this season to last and he is undoubtedly moving towards becoming an important part of the Leinster squad. Next season I'd expect to see him get more HEC exposure.

Andrew Conway has been incredibly unfortunate with injury this season so it's impossible to say where he could have been had he gotten a shot. But given the way Madigan and Kearney have gone this year it's not crazy to believe that a season with Leinster and no injuries could see him develop equally as well.

Couple all of the above with the fact that Joe is not afraid to rotate players once they've shown they are up to it and I don't doubt that next season and the season after we will have even more depth to our HEC squad, and that the players will be used.

Whatever about giving Connacht fringe players none of the guys you've listed above would benefit from moving to Connacht. They are all developing well at Leinster with the prospect of making the HEC squad a very real one for all of them in the next season or two. You don't leave one of the biggest sides in Europe with development opportunity like that to go to one of the smallest clubs in the competition.

shuffol

The players mentioned above are too far along in their development to be let go now, too much invested in them by Leinster. I think the way forward for Connacht is to do what they did with the likes of Mick Kearney, identify them early and try develop them themselves rather than trying to lure players already in academies. That way players will be more likely to stay when they establish themselves.