How to leave the Catholic church?

Bannasidhe

Onesimus wrote: »

It was not the Church who abused anyone. It was a ''man'' or a ''woman'' if we are talking about nuns in an isolated case or the many bishops who covered up and so on. These people are but a minority in a Church that is made up of many good people who practice what they preach.

To see someone attempt to write off their name of some record and spending their entire life trying to do so, says a lot more about the reasons behind as to why that person would want to do so, and what it is thats going on inside them rather than just settling the case, seeking the therapy they need to help them cope with such a nasty crime commited upon them and then doing their very best to get on with their lives.

If (and I mean IF ) I was abused by a member of the Church I'd simply have the case settled with the person who abused me and understand that the Church didnt abuse me and that there are many good people in there that make up that Church, just as there are many good Gardai in the force or any other religion such as Islam or Hinduism. Ya cant paint everyone with the same brush just because some men and women commited a crime within that organization. A crime that contradicts the very morals of that organization which is love.

So if I did have a desire to write my name off the record and spend my whole life trying to do so, would just tell me that I've got more than just a case to settle but that in my heart I really truly just want to wipe them off the face of the earth because some of us dont want to settle the case with a ''man'' who abused us, we want to hate and kill the Church in which we see as the one who abused us when they didnt, it was a couple of judas's and wiping the Church off the face of the earth? We all know that aint never going to happen just because our name is off some record.

And thats coming from a household where my parents were abused also in the past by Brothers, Nuns and priests etc. Yet their ability to settle it and get on with being a good Christian says a lot to me to be honest. I therefore can at least grasp some of the pain that many go through but running around trying to wipe your name off a sheet of paper is not going to help you it will actually make matters worse in my opinion.

Perhaps you can explain that the reason why people have to 'spend their whole lives' trying to get their name removed from 'some record' is because the Church won't let them. Why not let people leave officially if they want to?

Plus - has it occurred to you that people may want to leave the Catholic Church because they do not believe in Christianity?

I wasn't abused. The only member of my family who was is my mother's first cousin. However, I never believed the crap spouted by Rome. I am not now, nor have I ever been, a Christian - never mind a Catholic. Why shouldn't I seek to have the record set straight?

odonopenmic

Onesimus wrote: »

Look. You never had a choice of what play school you went to or when you had a bad tooth and needed to get a filling but your parents made you get it filled because they know whats good for you and they are your guardians and they do whats best for you in life until you reach the appropiate age you do what they say when you are under their roof. Even if you didnt want to go, you went whether you liked it or not because it was whats best for you in life. Children dont have the ability to know whats good for them this is why the presence of an elder is important. And I dont hear you whinging and moaning about any of this.

Now that your older and over the age of 18 you now have the deciding power to go to the dentist or not. To go to whatever school you want and try leave whatever organisation you wish. But from looking at this post all I see is a type of little spoiled brat behaviour whinging and moaning about his name being on some church record.

I've got many of my names on different things I signed up to and still considered a member of their website or group but I just left. I dont go and battle them to terminate my membership because it just doesnt matter to me. Whether or not your name is on Church record you will always be a baptised Catholic and this is unchangable. This shouldnt matter to you though if you dont believe in God or believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church even if you have retained your belief in God because according to your belief that the Catholic churches view of God is the wrong one, then there is no baptism.

Your decision to battle this is just because you dont want the Church to have the great ''numbers'' because if they do then they are seen as ''all powerful''. Ultimately what you want is not to just leave, but the Catholic Church to leave the face of the earth. You have a hatred in your heart for Catholicism and your on a wee mission to express that hatred and kill the Church. :rolleyes::D come on my friend that aint never going to happen, soSuck it up and get on with your life man for goodness sake. :cool: Go buy a goldfish or something. Take a walk on the sahara and enjoy the sunshine.

Only back online today and just seeing this now. A few things I'd like to pick up on but the most important one is this:

You make a massive assumption, an insulting assumption, if I'm honest, that I have "hatred" in my heart and that I'm on a mission to kill the Catholic Church. This is simply not true and you have made rather a leap to get to this point.

Actually, in deciding to leave, I was offered the opportunity to meet with Church representatives to discuss my reasoning for leaving and I jumped at the chance. Not as an excuse to give out, or be randomly and irrationally angry but to discuss why I wanted to leave which might simply be good feedback for the Church.

What frustrates me immensely is with the membership and reach of the Church, it could be such a power for good in this world but as an organisation, it does not live up to this promise. I say this absolutely not from a position of hate but from a position of disappointment. I wish the Church was just better at caring for those who subscribe to it.

Incidentally, you also assume that I am a man and a spoilt brat. As it turns out, I am neither. I am an intelligent adult female and I don't think being able to reason about a system of beliefs and decide one way or the other means that I am a 'spoilt brat'.

MadsL

Onesimus wrote: »

It was not the Church who abused anyone. It was a ''man'' or a ''woman'' if we are talking about nuns in an isolated case or the many bishops who covered up and so on. These people are but a minority in a Church that is made up of many good people who practice what they preach.

To see someone attempt to write off their name of some record and spending their entire life trying to do so, says a lot more about the reasons behind as to why that person would want to do so, and what it is thats going on inside them rather than just settling the case, seeking the therapy they need to help them cope with such a nasty crime commited upon them and then doing their very best to get on with their lives.

If (and I mean IF ) I was abused by a member of the Church I'd simply have the case settled with the person who abused me and understand that the Church didnt abuse me and that there are many good people in there that make up that Church, just as there are many good Gardai in the force or any other religion such as Islam or Hinduism. Ya cant paint everyone with the same brush just because some men and women commited a crime within that organization. A crime that contradicts the very morals of that organization which is love.

So if I did have a desire to write my name off the record and spend my whole life trying to do so, would just tell me that I've got more than just a case to settle but that in my heart I really truly just want to wipe them off the face of the earth because some of us dont want to settle the case with a ''man'' who abused us, we want to hate and kill the Church in which we see as the one who abused us when they didnt, it was a couple of judas's and wiping the Church off the face of the earth? We all know that aint never going to happen just because our name is off some record.

And thats coming from a household where my parents were abused also in the past by Brothers, Nuns and priests etc. Yet their ability to settle it and get on with being a good Christian says a lot to me to be honest. I therefore can at least grasp some of the pain that many go through but running around trying to wipe your name off a sheet of paper is not going to help you it will actually make matters worse in my opinion.

Good job on twisting what I said. I said "abused by a member of the Church" not "abused by the Church". I think it is plain to see that someone who has experienced abuse by a member of an organisation would not want to be counted as part of that same organisation - why would they be denied the right to leave?

Onesimus

odonopenmic wrote: »

Only back online today and just seeing this now. A few things I'd like to pick up on but the most important one is this:

You make a massive assumption, an insulting assumption, if I'm honest, that I have "hatred" in my heart and that I'm on a mission to kill the Catholic Church. This is simply not true and you have made rather a leap to get to this point.

Actually, in deciding to leave, I was offered the opportunity to meet with Church representatives to discuss my reasoning for leaving and I jumped at the chance. Not as an excuse to give out, or be randomly and irrationally angry but to discuss why I wanted to leave which might simply be good feedback for the Church.

What frustrates me immensely is with the membership and reach of the Church, it could be such a power for good in this world but as an organisation, it does not live up to this promise. I say this absolutely not from a position of hate but from a position of disappointment. I wish the Church was just better at caring for those who subscribe to it.

Incidentally, you also assume that I am a man and a spoilt brat. As it turns out, I am neither. I am an intelligent adult female and I don't think being able to reason about a system of beliefs and decide one way or the other means that I am a 'spoilt brat'.

I was not calling you personally a spoilt brat, you have not read my post properly. I was assuming your behaviour to be of a spoilt nature and I still do having read your previous posts.

What frustrates me immensely is with the membership and reach of the Church, it could be such a power for good in this world but as an organisation, it does not live up to this promise.

What promise is that? There is never any guarantee under any religion or any institution that something is not going to go wrong and that men and women will not commit crimes. All an institution can do is do its best to tighten those barriers to prevent such things from happening. The Church failed to do this in the past but it certainly can not make any promise ( like any other institution ) that there will be no problems either now or in the future.

If the Churches care dissapoints you doesnt the HSE's caring institution dissapoint you? Those abused children in their care too. Because you are under their care are you going to stop going to the doctor when you catch a cold? Are going to leave them too and dress your own wounds?

As A Christian I am under the care of the Church but I do realise that care fails many times but it doesnt prevent me from going to Mass and practicing my faith and using a bit of common sense.

Your spoilt brat behaviour I was referring to was ''I never had a choice when I was baptised '' and when I read that I was like ah here now grow up for goodness sake and go and get on with your life.

You posted that you have no hatred in your heart for the Church but I've yet to meet anyone who wants to leave or has left and does not hate the Church. Those are my ( according to yourself ) poor assumptions but I'm sticking to them for now.

Onesimus

odonopenmic

Onesimus wrote: »

I was not calling you personally a spoilt brat, you have not read my post properly. I was assuming your behaviour to be of a spoilt nature and I still do having read your previous posts.



What promise is that? There is never any guarantee under any religion or any institution that something is not going to go wrong and that men and women will not commit crimes. All an institution can do is do its best to tighten those barriers to prevent such things from happening. The Church failed to do this in the past but it certainly can not make any promise ( like any other institution ) that there will be no problems either now or in the future.

If the Churches care dissapoints you doesnt the HSE's caring institution dissapoint you? Those abused children in their care too. Because you are under their care are you going to stop going to the doctor when you catch a cold? Are going to leave them too and dress your own wounds?

As A Christian I am under the care of the Church but I do realise that care fails many times but it doesnt prevent me from going to Mass and practicing my faith and using a bit of common sense.

Your spoilt brat behaviour I was referring to was ''I never had a choice when I was baptised '' and when I read that I was like ah here now grow up for goodness sake and go and get on with your life.

You posted that you have no hatred in your heart for the Church but I've yet to meet anyone who wants to leave or has left and does not hate the Church. Those are my ( according to yourself ) poor assumptions but I'm sticking to them for now.

Onesimus

Hi Onesimus,

I thought the wording of this might have been confusing alright, my fault. What I actually meant by promise was potential. The Church have an incredible potential for good. Not that they promise/guarantee anything in particular.

I'm not quite sure why this conversation keeps going back to abuse? I am not talking about abuse nor have I been. I'm also not talking about the HSE. Again, I may have confused things when I said care as what I meant here was more in relation to their spiritual or pastoral care - their flock.

It would appear that you are indeed fortunate! For today, you have encountered your very first person, who would like to leave the church, who has absolutely no hatred whatsoever, for the the Church or for Catholics. And sure if that wouldn't bring a smile to your face on a Thursday morning, sure what would? Isn't life grand for all us atheists and theists alike?

The Brigadier

odonopenmic wrote: »

The Church have an incredible potential for good.

The Church do a huge amount of good - no matter how you look at things.

Bannasidhe

The Brigadier wrote: »

The Church do a huge amount of good - no matter how you look at things.

Equally, the Church has done an incredible amount of evil. Quite honestly, I don't think a defence of 'we did some good stuff too' holds much water.

The Brigadier

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Equally, the Church has done an incredible amount of evil. Quite honestly, I don't think a defence of 'we did some good stuff too' holds much water.

What evil does the Church do? Please be specific about things you can lay at the door of the Church itself rather than individuals in the Church.

Anything in the past is irrelevant for someone wanting to leave the Church now.

Bannasidhe

The Brigadier wrote: »

What evil does the Church do?

How far back would you like me to go?
The Albegesian Crusade?
The Inquisition?
The Magdelene Laundries?
The sexual abuse of children?
The protection of child abusers?

Or how about just trying to ban women from participating in mixed sporting events as it was 'immodest' and 'unCatholic'? Or getting tampons banned as women may experience sexual stimulation while wearing one?

You couldn't make this **** up:

In Ireland, leading the fray against mixed athletics in 1934 was Revd John Charles McQuaid, then president of Blackrock College, a Catholic boys’ school run by the Holy Ghost Fathers. In a letter to the Irish Press on 24 February 1934, which was also published in The Irish Times the same day, he made it clear that ‘the issue is not: in what forms of athletic sport may women or girls indulge, with safety to their well-being. That question should be duly determined by medical science, rightly so called’. Neither, he argued, was it a question of female activity within their own colleges and associations; that ‘question should be duly solved by the principles both of Christian modesty and of true medical science’. He asserted that ‘mixed athletics and all cognate immodesties are abuses that right-minded people reprobate, wherever and whenever they exist’. To clinch his argument, McQuaid declared: ‘God is not modern; nor is his Law’. Women competing in the same sporting arenas with men were ‘un-Irish and un-Catholic’, and mixed athletics were a ‘social abuse’ and a ‘moral abuse’.

Internal Tamponage:

The moral dangers of Tampax
A decade later McQuaid, by now archbishop of Dublin, was still concerned about the movements of Irish women. In April 1944 he wrote to Dr Conn Ward, parliamentary secretary to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, and informed him that at the ‘Low Week meetings of the Bishops, I explained very fully the evidence concerning the use of internal sanitary tampons, in particular, that called Tampax. On the medical evidence made available, the bishops very strongly disapproved of the use of these appliances, more particularly in the case of unmarried persons.’ ‘Unmarried persons’ was a euphemism for women. Did men actually use Tampax? Were they seen as a contraceptive device? It requires a remarkable gynaecological imagination to see Tampax as a contraceptive. The more pertinent fear, however, was that women might derive sexual stimulation from Tampax.

http://www.historyireland.com//volumes/volume15/issue6/features/?id=114154

Or you could just turn on Liveline right now and listen to the victims of clerical abuse describe how they were treated by the Church when they reported the rapes they were subjected to by Catholic priests. :mad:

stimpson

The Brigadier wrote: »

What evil does the Church do? Please be specific about things you can lay at the door of the Church itself rather than individuals in the Church.

Anything in the past is irrelevant for someone wanting to leave the Church now.

Have you seen the front page of this mornings Irish Times?

The leader of the church says he was only following orders. A man that should be an example to Catholics of how to live a moral life says he didn't know he should report it to the authorities and things were different back then (as if child rape wasn't a crime until recently).

And he still wants to brazen it out.

Bannasidhe

The Brigadier wrote: »

What evil does the Church do? Please be specific about things you can lay at the door of the Church itself rather than individuals in the Church.

Anything in the past is irrelevant for someone wanting to leave the Church now.

Really - the past is irrelevant is it? This said in defence of an organisation that claims it's legitimacy from someone who lived 2000 year ago. An organisation built on tradition???? Are you for real???

The Brigadier

stimpson wrote: »

Have you seen the front page of this mornings Irish Times?

The leader of the church says he was only following orders. A man that should be an example to Catholics of how to live a moral life says he didn't know he should report it to the authorities and things were different back then (as if child rape wasn't a crime until recently).

And he still wants to brazen it out.

I haven't seen the front page of the Irish Times. However I know what you are talking about - an individual. An individual who I am appalled at.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How far back would you like me to go?
The Albegesian Crusade?
The Inquisition?
The Magdelene Laundries?
The sexual abuse of children?
The protection of child abusers?

Or how about just trying to ban women from participating in mixed sporting events as it was 'immodest' and 'unCatholic'? Or getting tampons banned as women may experience sexual stimulation while wearing one?

You couldn't make this **** up:


Internal Tamponage:

http://www.historyireland.com//volumes/volume15/issue6/features/?id=114154

Or you could just turn on Liveline right now and listen to the victims of clerical abuse describe how they were treated by the Church when they reported the rapes they were subjected to by Catholic priests. :mad:

Seriously - try reading my post. I specifically asked what evil the Church does now. Please, also give examples of the Church not individuals within it.

The Brigadier

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Really - the past is irrelevant is it? This said in defence of an organisation that claims it's legitimacy from someone who lived 2000 year ago. An organisation built on tradition???? Are you for real???

It is completely irrelevant when the point is about whether the Church does good or not.

Whether the Church has done good in the past is a completely separate question.

Bannasidhe

The Brigadier wrote: »

I haven't seen the front page of the Irish Times. However I know what you are talking about - an individual. An individual who I am appalled at.



Seriously - try reading my post. I specifically asked what evil the Church does now. Please, also give examples of the Church not individuals within it.

So - when clerics commit crimes they are 'individuals' but when they do 'good' they are representatives of the Church. You cannot have it both ways.

PDN

Locked since we already have a thread to discuss Child Abuse.