confused about the rb list

nala2012

Are the south African boerbal on the rb list? I know bull mastiffs are but does that mean all mastiffs are to be muzzled in public?

micheleabc

For the full list:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/si/0123.html

nala2012

Ya I looked up the list. I'm just wondering if south African boerbal is included as a strain of bull mastiff?

andreac

If the Boerbal is a recognised breed then no, its not on the list.

Cedrus

I'd never heard of a Boerboel but the 'wonderful' wikipedia says "The Boerboel is the only South African dog breed created to defend the homestead". That might qualify them functionally as Ban-dogs which are on the RB list if correct. However, since most non doggy people can't identify the more common breeds on the list I doubt that anyone would attempt to look into ban-dogs.

**Vai**

Boerboel is a South African mastiff so might well be included since the bull mastiff is on the list.

Gorgeous dogs, always wanted one. Are u looking into getting one yourself OP?

andreac

nala2012 wrote: »

Are the south African boerbal on the rb list? I know bull mastiffs are but does that mean all mastiffs are to be muzzled in public?

No it doesnt mean all Mastiffs have to be muzzled, only crosses of the dogs mentioned must be. The Boerbal is a separate breed and isnt listed so you dont have to muzzle it.

DBB

andreac wrote: »

nala2012 wrote: »

Are the south African boerbal on the rb list? I know bull mastiffs are but does that mean all mastiffs are to be muzzled in public?

No it doesnt mean all Mastiffs have to be muzzled, only crosses of the dogs mentioned must be. The Boerbal is a separate breed and isnt listed so you dont have to muzzle it.

+1
The law is black and white. Bull mastiff means a bull mastiff, or direct crosses thereof ie crossbreeds. No other breed of mastiff is included on the rb list.

nala2012

Ok thanks for clearing that up. I didn't think he was on the list but the amount of people telling me I should have him muzzled in public was making me doubt myself!

time lord

Why would he not come under the umbrella of a bandog?

DamagedTrax

DBB wrote: »

+1
No other breed of mastiff is included on the rb list.

actually the dogo is a white mastiff isnt it?

DBB

DamagedTrax wrote: »

DBB wrote: »

+1
No other breed of mastiff is included on the rb list.

actually the dogo is a white mastiff isnt it?

It is a white-coloured mastiff, yes. But not a bull mastiff!
Time Lord, you may indeed have a point, in that a knowledgeable warden could perhaps argue that the Boerboel (and other mastiffs) is of bandog "type", but as there is no specific breed standard for the modern day bandog, and I don't think there is a legal definition of what a bandog actually is either, I'd think that owners of Boerboels are pretty safe.
However, I guess it's possible for a warden to argue his case based on some of the loose definitions of what a bandog is! An interesting point, that I don't believe has been tested in Ireland.

DamagedTrax

i never realised before that the amstaff isnt on the list. thats odd considering they're just a show bred pitbull.

Rommie

time lord wrote: »

Why would he not come under the umbrella of a bandog?

A bandog is not a breed, it is a mix of several breeds to make the 'ultimate working dog', or so they say. Typically mastiff and bullbreed mixes. While the boerboel was developed similarily to the bandog, it is a breed in itself and is not included in the rb list.

As a matter of interest though, does anyone know where the belgian shepherd lies? A friend of mine has a malinois and was told at a dog training course (of all places!) that the dog had to be muzzled as it is an rb. As far as I know however, the belgian shepherd is an older breed than the german shepherd so not a strain or cross of it, so it technically shouldn't come under rb law.

Cherry Blossom

I was under the impression that the term 'bandog' wasn't a a description of the dogs genetic makeup but a description of the purpose for which the dog is kept. Either way it describes a cross, not a breed. Why name bull mastiffs but not other mastiff breeds if the term 'bandog' is designed to be a 'catch all' term for all mastiffs? If it was, bull mastiffs wouldn't be specifically named.

DamagedTrax

the boerboel is considered a bandog. same as presa and dogo as far as i know.

the legislation states

to every dog of the type commonly known as a Ban Dog (or Bandog) and to every other strain or cross of every breed or type of dog described in this article.

Cedrus

I understand Ban-dog to be a functional description of a restrained (chained or fenced) large guard dog rather than a breed, although there are several, as yet unrecognised, breeds called ban-dog.

I suspect that Ban-dog was included in the legislation as a broad umbrella term in order to have the legislative means to prosecute owners who keep large dogs as "mean junkyard dogs" without adequate precaution.

nala2012

So my boerboal does have to be muzzled in public?

It's all very confusing because my pups mom is a bullmastiff but nobody who has tried to guess her breed has mentioned any kind of mastiff!

DamagedTrax

nala2012 wrote: »

So my boerboal does have to be muzzled in public?

It's all very confusing because my pups mom is a bullmastiff but nobody who has tried to guess her breed has mentioned any kind of mastiff!

if her mom was a bullmastiff then 100% she is on the RB list as she's a X breed. whether you want to take the chance with not muzzling her is entirely up to you.

time lord

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I was under the impression that the term 'bandog' wasn't a a description of the dogs genetic makeup but a description of the purpose for which the dog is kept. Either way it describes a cross, not a breed. Why name bull mastiffs but not other mastiff breeds if the term 'bandog' is designed to be a 'catch all' term for all mastiffs? If it was, bull mastiffs wouldn't be specifically named.

I would concur, in my humble opinion most leglislation tries to have a "catch all" section to it usually when describing definations like a car or what is litter etc.
I would see the term Bandog covering a multitude. As much as responsible dog owners do not like the RB list it was never going to list all variants/crosses/strains of similar dogs and many national kennel clubs contradict each other or do not concur on having seperate breeds of what they see as the same dog.
All above is just opinion though unless tested by some court. Until then its just legislation.
Some dog wardens I meet are well up on breeds but can be light on enforcement or knowledge of whats on the statue books. Its rare enough to get one that excels in all fields i.m.o.

A good thread may be "what should the best practice dog warden know or do in their daily work that is deemed to be missing at the moment." I suppose be there is a start:)

time lord

nala2012 wrote: »

So my boerboal does have to be muzzled in public?

It's all very confusing because my pups mom is a bullmastiff but nobody who has tried to guess her breed has mentioned any kind of mastiff!

If we're talking law stuff then with this information then 100% yes to your muzzling querie. He should be muzzled in public to comply with law. Not my opinion btw.

cos!!

Do you have a boerboel or a bull mastiff cross?Or both?If its a bullmastiff X then legally yes it should be muzzled, if its a boerboel then you dont have to muzzle.

nala2012

cos!! wrote: »

Do you have a boerboel or a bull mastiff cross?Or both?If its a bullmastiff X then legally yes it should be muzzled, if its a boerboel then you dont have to muzzle.

Have both! Also have greyhounds and it annoys me the reaction we get when we walk them with muzzles on. You hear parents telling their kids that they have muzzle on because they're bold and not to go near them. I don't want my pup to get the same reaction.

DBB

Rommie wrote: »

As a matter of interest though, does anyone know where the belgian shepherd lies? A friend of mine has a malinois and was told at a dog training course (of all places!) that the dog had to be muzzled as it is an rb. As far as I know however, the belgian shepherd is an older breed than the german shepherd so not a strain or cross of it, so it technically shouldn't come under rb law.

Yes, I can answer this as it has applied directly to me in the past and it was confirmed to me by a particularly *ahem* pernickity dog warden. A Belgian Shepherd is NOT on the RB list.
Once a dog is a breed in it's own right, the question of what breeds were involved in it's ancestry is moot. Once it's an official breed, it is not longer a crossbreed or strain! If you think about it, pretty much every breed was originally created from crossing various breeds in and out... many breeds have RB breeds in their ancient ancestry, and they are absolutely not on the RB list because they are now breeds in their own right.
As for the training class telling the owner of the Mal that the dog should be muzzed... sheesh. I have come across this before though, I wonder is it the same class?! Flippin hell, things are bad enough with the RB list without "experts" getting it wrong!:(

OP, just to confirm as others have, if your dog is a Bull Mastiff X then of course she comes under the RB law: I woud contest that her Boerboel parentage would not affect her due to the nebulous nature of what a bandog is. The problem is that no matter what others think she is, if a warden forms the opinion that she's a Bull Mastiff X, you have to show she isn't. If it came to it (it hardly wil unless there's a major incident!), DNA analysis would find her out.
Just as a bit of an aside, if I owned a crossbreed dog that I knew to fall under the RB legislation but decided to ignore this fact, I wouldn't be posting pics of said dog on any websites with the admission that I know the parentage. It's a very small word out there.:eek:

axle108

DBB wrote: »

+1
The law is black and white. Bull mastiff means a bull mastiff, or direct crosses thereof ie crossbreeds. No other breed of mastiff is included on the rb list.

Found this on the net
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Boerboel

http://www.superbreeds.biz/Boerboel_public_html/Boerboel_html/Boerboel_bullmastiffs.html

Quote from the Control of Dogs (Restriction of Certain Dogs) Regulations, 1991. "every other strain or cross of every breed or type of dog described in this article".
My reading into the Boerboel is that it was crossed with the bullmastiff at a stage in its development, which would be governed by the quote from the Control of Dogs (Restriction of Certain Dogs) Regulations, 1991.

DBB

There's no arguing that the Boerboel's lines include mastiff. So do Great Danes. There are many breeds that include our RBs in their ancestry.
As I said above, the law does not pertain to such dogs once they have become a breed in their own right. They are no longer crossbreeds or strains.
But i've already said all that above. It's curious that if I posted asking does my Great Dane or Boxer have to be muzzled, there'd be no argument at all, yet the Boerboel is as much, or as little mastiff, as either, in legal terms.