Obligatory, wage-affecting performance reviews for teachers - a great idea!

Roadtrippin

Bring performance-related pay into the classroom say MPs as they target bad teachers
- Report says inferior teaching is having effect on children's long-term prospects

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2137684/Bad-teachers-paid-best-say-MPs.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Finally a good idea to reform the public sector in some ways!

Thank you, UK!!!

Let's hope they go through with this - I totally agree with making public servants adhere to performance reviews and make their wage dependent on it!!!

Stalin and rugby

Yea it's a great idea but it will result in the poaching of good students by teachers. Would be slick if it was brought about though

partyatmygaff

What does this have to do with the LC?

Wouldn't it be better suited to the Teaching forum or politics?

jumpguy

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Wouldn't it be better suited to the Teaching forum or politics?

At least you're more likely to get a student response here.

I think it's a great idea, however implementing it and finding out how to monitor teacher performance would be a tricky - but not impossible.

No doubt though if the government even whispered the suggestion every teacher union in the country would be in outrage and complaining that it's no more than cost-saving for the banks and schools are impoverished and that's not helping teachers and etc etc....

Roadtrippin

partyatmygaff wrote: »

What does this have to do with the LC?

Wouldn't it be better suited to the Teaching forum or politics?

True, but I couldnt find a teaching forum...

I'm knew to this

Maybe they can help me move the thread there... Helloooo? Anyone there in the mood to move this thread to teaching or politics forum?

Stalin and rugby

As far as I know teachers in the Institute are paid on those terms...

spurious

You couldn't find a teaching forum?
I know the response it will get as this is nothing new, but I will move it there anyway.

Who should get paid more, the person who hands out photocopied notes to a class of A standard students or the person who teaches an illiterate 17 year old to read his first book?

What is a 'good' teacher?

vamos!

spurious wrote: »

You couldn't find a teaching forum?
I know the response it will get as this is nothing new, but I will move it there anyway.

Who should get paid more, the person who hands out photocopied notes to a class of A standard students or the person who teaches an illiterate 17 year old to read his first book?

What is a 'good' teacher?

Spurious you forgot the step-by-step instructions as to how get to the T&L forum....and the revision notes, sample answer and accompanying powerpoint. You, spurious, are worth minimum wage under this new plan!

28064212

Paying teachers by students' performances is so incredibly stupid, it's hard to know where to start with the flaws

Roadtrippin

28064212 wrote: »

Paying teachers by students' performances is so incredibly stupid, it's hard to know where to start with the flaws

Not by students' perfomances but by lack of engagement on the teacher's side. I teach part-time in schools and universities and I can tell you from observing other classes that there is some really bad lazy teachers out there and they surely could do with a bit of a real-life test of their skills and work ethics.
There is some very good teachers as well. But at the same time they get the same wage as some Mary-scratching, child-hating lazy b*****ds...

I do fully support a move of making teachers go through perfomance reviews - not necessarily dependent on student pass rates but dependent on experts/principals/other teachers observing random classes and giving evaluation reports to the HEA...

In any other private job you have to do performance reviews, why not in schools and universities??? If you're a good teacher you have nothing to worry about and maybe the bad teachers will be scared into broadening their horizons and working harder!!!

gaeilgebeo

Roadtrippin wrote: »

Not by students' perfomances but by lack of engagement on the teacher's side. I teach part-time in schools and universities and I can tell you from observing other classes that there is some really bad lazy teachers out there and they surely could do with a bit of a real-life test of their skills and work ethics.
There is some very good teachers as well. But at the same time they get the same wage as some Mary-scratching, child-hating lazy b*****ds...

I do fully support a move of making teachers go through perfomance reviews - not necessarily dependent on student pass rates but dependent on experts/principals/other teachers observing random classes and giving evaluation reports to the HEA...

In any other private job you have to do performance reviews, why not in schools and universities??? If you're a good teacher you have nothing to worry about and maybe the bad teachers will be scared into broadening their horizons and working harder!!!

What do you teach part-time?

gaeilgebeo

Roadtrippin wrote: »

Bring performance-related pay into the classroom say MPs as they target bad teachers
- Report says inferior teaching is having effect on children's long-term prospects

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2137684/Bad-teachers-paid-best-say-MPs.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Finally a good idea to reform the public sector in some ways!

Thank you, UK!!!

Let's hope they go through with this - I totally agree with making public servants adhere to performance reviews and make their wage dependent on it!!!

So do you propose these performance appraisals will work? A performance appraisal on a really difficult class with serious learning and behavioural difficulties is going to be the same as a performance appraisal on a class of straight A high achievers?

If I can get my really weak class through a Junior Cert exam and they receive Cs and Ds(which is an excellent achievement for them) as opposed to my colleague who had a much stronger class who got As and Bs, is my "appraisal" going to be worse than my colleagues? As on paper my results won't be as high?

How do you set the criteria for this "appraisal"?
How do you set the "targets" ?
How will "continually assessing" a teacher work?

Roadtrippin

spurious wrote: »

You couldn't find a teaching forum?
I know the response it will get as this is nothing new, but I will move it there anyway.

Who should get paid more, the person who hands out photocopied notes to a class of A standard students or the person who teaches an illiterate 17 year old to read his first book?

What is a 'good' teacher?

How long do you have?
I would consider myself informed enough about this issue since I teach part-time and do research on teaching standards at university level. I could give you a very long response to that... there is an endless list of things that teachers can do to become the best teachers they can be. Depending of course on the place and level they teach, and the resources they have to work with.

A good teacher - well, what do you define as a good teacher yourself?

A good teacher in my books is someone that doesn't just do minimum effort - that goes for any job really.
A good teacher likes to work with children and is a team player, likes to improve his/her teaching, likes students' feeback and works hard on preparing classes that engage learners and make them develop skills that are useful for the rest of their career paths/life.

I have taught in language schools as well in Ireland and abroad and classroom observations by the boss/colleagues were a standard practice to ensure that we knew what we were doing. Also, it is always good to hear from other teachers what you could do better. There's always room for improvement.

If people are not able to deal with performance reviews in schools, how are we even ensuring an acceptable standard of teaching???

The school inspectors hardly get around to visit each school every couple of years. We cant just assume that all teachers are doing their jobs!

Roadtrippin

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

What do you teach part-time?

German, Spanish, English as a foreign language, Translation,...

At school level only German and the rest at university level.

I taught in language schools many years in Ireland and abroad.

Why? Just interested?

Roadtrippin

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

So do you propose these performance appraisals will work? A performance appraisal on a really difficult class with serious learning and behavioural difficulties is going to be the same as a performance appraisal on a class of straight A high achievers?

If I can get my really weak class through a Junior Cert exam and they receive Cs and Ds(which is an excellent achievement for them) as opposed to my colleague who had a much stronger class who got As and Bs, is my "appraisal" going to be worse than my colleagues? As on paper my results won't be as high?

How do you set the criteria for this "appraisal"?
How do you set the "targets" ?
How will "continually assessing" a teacher work?

These are all very good questions and clearly I don't have all the answers. I'm not the HEA.
I think it is a good idea to implement regular appraisals though, for example,
like I suggested above, regular random classroom observations like you have to go through during your HDip should be standard practice as part of the appraisal.
These observations can be done by colleagues or other teachers from partner schools etc. Reports could be sent to the teacher in question first so they get a chance to improve if there is any shortcomings.

byhookorbycrook

I'm in learning support, how do you judge my performance?

partyatmygaff

Here's a simple solution. End-of-term (Based on three terms per year) teacher reviews run by the Department of Education (With minimal school involvement).

• No reviews for first years.
• Problem students with discipline problems (Genuine discipline problems confirmed by OTHER teachers in the school) get their review weighted at 0.25
• Students who are average academically and are stagnating or decreasing in grade get their review weighted at 0.75
• Students who do well academically (C2 or higher at HL) or have shown improvement (Say moving up a minimum of three grades over one exam period) have their reviews weighted at 1

Students mark their teacher's teaching ability on an arbitrary scale of 0-100 and a weighted mean is found. If the teacher averages less than 60% in two consecutive terms or has suffered a decrease of 20% or more they should be subjected to a series of three random inspections over the next term with no forewarning.

If a teacher has been flagged for inspection, the inspector marks the teacher on each of the three occasions as if the teacher was still in training. If the inspector finds that the teacher is incompetent they're immediately docked 5%. If they improve over the next term, they're restored to full pay. If they do not show any significant improvement over the following three terms, they're subjected to another three random inspections in the next term. If the inspector finds no improvement again, they're docked 15% instead of 5%. The cycle goes 5% - 15% - 20% - 25% - Warning/Probation - Termination and requirement to resit PGDE/H.Dip.

So in essence... a student review (With weightings to keep things somewhat fair for the teacher) that flags teachers for random inspection.

ntlbell

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I'm in learning support, how do you judge my performance?

How do you judge your own performance?

How do you personally know when you're doing a good job?

byhookorbycrook

I judge my own performance in terms of objectives reached and the results of many diagnostic tests I use, in how the children grow in confidence and through feedback from the children themselves,class teachers,inspectors and parents.

vamos!

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I'm in learning support, how do you judge my performance?

How would you judge my 5th year German class? I have a multi-level class of 29, with abilities ranging from resource English to wanting to study German at Uni. The main issue in my class is Thuggy McThuggerson. He doesn't want to be there but the school will not allow him drop German. He hates German and has yet to purchase the textbook or a copy. I supply him with a pen and on the days he decides not to use it as a weapon he draws charming swastikas on the desks. His mother Mrs I Know My Rights And All Yous Teachers Are All The Same Inanyways supports her son. German is for Nazis and saps. I have no choice but to work with either Higher Level or Ordinary Level some days, as they are essentially two courses. Some of my well behaved students work away by themselves guided by notes I spend hours creating, as they are essentially replacing the teacher while I work with the other group. Should I be paid on the basis of the notes I produce? Or the classroom situation? I am working with OL, the HL students are trying to work but Thuggy is frogmarching across the room. Should I have planned for that? Built it into my lesson plan?

The school down the road has two German teachers and two classes. HL and OL are not taught in the same room. The teacher there has more class contact time and students are allowed to drop German in LC if they wish. The lower ability students take this option. This teacher does not need to type up as many notes as me, as she can work with the class as a whole. Should she be paid less than me because her folder is smaller?

Chancer is also in my class. He doesn't love German but used to work. Lately he has started to cause havoc and has stopped doing anything productive in my class. He is very good in Geography, English and Maths. He does excellent work for those teachers... should they be paid more than me?? (Thuggy is not in those classes and Chancer works best when separated from him. They have to do German toghether as their is only one class)

I forgot to mention that I haven't seen Asbo Jr since Easter... He comes and goes but will probably sit the exam for the craic. Is it my fault if he fails. He doesn't really do mornings, or Mondays or Fridays but does show hios face the occasional Thursday afternoon.

How on earth do you monitor productivity? Is it notes, results, ability to deal with the Thuggy's of the world?


**I no longer teach this class, but they exist

Dave0301

In theory yes it's a great idea, in practice it could never work!

Does a teacher who gets all As in a higher level class get paid more than the teacher who gets all As in foundation level class with kids who have behavior and learning difficulties? Or vice versa?

What about schools that are deemed to achieve more academically? Should teachers there earn more because of that? More than teachers in a DEIS school that may not achieve high grades but who face a different set of challenges?

I'm all for more stringent forms of assessment for teachers within the system, as would I say most teachers are. However relating it to their livelihood when there are so so many variables to account for is not the way to do it!

seriouslysweet

Such a stupid idea, some of the best teachers I know teach really weak classes.

byhookorbycrook

Payment by results has already been tried and has been proven to be a huge failure. I could coach all of my groups in the Drumcondra tests all year and perhaps there'd be a marked improvement in the test scores, but this does not mean a big improvement in numeracy or literacy, it means they can do the qs in only one form of testing.

jumpguy

There would be major flaws in a lot of assessments. Partyatmygaff's method seems the most plausible but suffers in that teachers who know students will give them bad feedback could just note them as lacking discipline.

I don't see why the principal can't do this job. What can't the principle be the equivalent of a manager? He'd know the classes, he'd know the teachers better than any inspector. If principals could fire and hire like real bosses, with their decisions open to appeal and etc then I think there would be real improvement. The principals and schools could be inspected on occasion by an impartial supervisor, with the principal being quizzed on problems found in the school and on problems with teacher performance.

ntlbell

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I judge my own performance in terms of objectives reached and the results of many diagnostic tests I use, in how the children grow in confidence and through feedback from the children themselves,class teachers,inspectors and parents.

Seems like you answered your own question then.

performance goals with 360 reviews.

Another problem solved.

partyatmygaff

jumpguy wrote: »

There would be major flaws in a lot of assessments. Partyatmygaff's method seems the most plausible but suffers in that teachers who know students will give them bad feedback could just note them as lacking discipline.

That's why I said discipline problems have to be independently confirmed by other teachers in the school before the 0.25 weighting applies.

If my suggested system was ever implemented it would be managed mainly by the principal and the Department of Education. Ideally, there would be little to no teacher involvement or teacher-student contact in the review process to keep things impartial.

byhookorbycrook

ntlbell wrote: »

Seems like you answered your own question then.

performance goals with 360 reviews.

Another problem solved.

Not really, I could set objectives that I know the child has already reached if I think it is going to impact on my salary.I could make sure that I get the learning support children I know to be more academic. I could refuse to take children without home support and so on.

Roadtrippin

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I judge my own performance in terms of objectives reached and the results of many diagnostic tests I use, in how the children grow in confidence and through feedback from the children themselves,class teachers,inspectors and parents.

Well, that pretty much covers it then, doesn't it?

Just to make it clear again - I am not saying that all teachers are doing something wrong. I am a teacher myself so who am I to judge.

I am merely saying that more reviews and feedback on a regular basis can only be a good thing.

Roadtrippin

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Not really, I could set objectives that I know the child has already reached if I think it is going to impact on my salary.I could make sure that I get the learning support children I know to be more academic. I could refuse to take children without home support and so on.

That is a good point - well then the objectives need to be set by you and confirmed by a second teacher that knows the student, IMHO.

Gurgle

seriouslysweet wrote: »

Such a stupid idea, some of the best teachers I know teach really weak classes.

That's where they're needed most.

looksee

I think teacher assessment is a good idea but I think involving the students in assessing teachers would be very bad for discipline in the long run. I can just imagine lippy louise trying to use 'I'll give you a bad report!' as a smart remark in class. It does not matter that she has been weighted out of the equation, just giving her the ammunition is a bad idea.

golden lane

Roadtrippin wrote: »

Bring performance-related pay into the classroom say MPs as they target bad teachers
- Report says inferior teaching is having effect on children's long-term prospects

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2137684/Bad-teachers-paid-best-say-MPs.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Finally a good idea to reform the public sector in some ways!

Thank you, UK!!!

Let's hope they go through with this - I totally agree with making public servants adhere to performance reviews and make their wage dependent on it!!!

this is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard in my life........we are paying too much to give our kids a basic education......but this is not the answer..

byhookorbycrook

Roadtrippin wrote: »

That is a good point - well then the objectives need to be set by you and confirmed by a second teacher that knows the student, IMHO.

But suppose we decide on a "you scratch my back" approach?Suppose that I know a child to be in need of support at x and the other teacher says it's really y s/he needs?Suppose that the standards in our school are higher/lower than another school?Suppose the principal is willing to to sign off on all of this-look at my school, all the teachers are reaching our goals?

Roadtrippin

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Payment by results has already been tried and has been proven to be a huge failure. I could coach all of my groups in the Drumcondra tests all year and perhaps there'd be a marked improvement in the test scores, but this does not mean a big improvement in numeracy or literacy, it means they can do the qs in only one form of testing.

Interesting. How has it been proven to be a failure? Just asking because I'm curious.

I don't agree with making the performance necessarily dependent on student pass rates and tests etc. That's been done in the US and doesnt work that well.

I do agree with having regular classroom observations by colleagues and friendly feedback, especially for novice teachers.

partyatmygaff

looksee wrote: »

I think teacher assessment is a good idea but I think involving the students in assessing teachers would be very bad for discipline in the long run. I can just imagine lippy louise trying to use 'I'll give you a bad report!' as a smart remark in class. It does not matter that she has been weighted out of the equation, just giving her the ammunition is a bad idea.

Easy solution. Completely and permanently revoke review rights for problem students if they so much as mention the review to their teachers. No exceptions. No leniency.

If they no longer receive a review slip from the Department every three months and they know that you know they can no longer actually review you there's little to no chance of them using it as verbal ammo.

savvyav

vamos! wrote: »

How would you judge my 5th year German class? I have a multi-level class of 29, with abilities ranging from resource English to wanting to study German at Uni. The main issue in my class is Thuggy McThuggerson. He doesn't want to be there but the school will not allow him drop German. He hates German and has yet to purchase the textbook or a copy. I supply him with a pen and on the days he decides not to use it as a weapon he draws charming swastikas on the desks. His mother Mrs I Know My Rights And All Yous Teachers Are All The Same Inanyways supports her son. German is for Nazis and saps. I have no choice but to work with either Higher Level or Ordinary Level some days, as they are essentially two courses. Some of my well behaved students work away by themselves guided by notes I spend hours creating, as they are essentially replacing the teacher while I work with the other group. Should I be paid on the basis of the notes I produce? Or the classroom situation? I am working with OL, the HL students are trying to work but Thuggy is frogmarching across the room. Should I have planned for that? Built it into my lesson plan?

The school down the road has two German teachers and two classes. HL and OL are not taught in the same room. The teacher there has more class contact time and students are allowed to drop German in LC if they wish. The lower ability students take this option. This teacher does not need to type up as many notes as me, as she can work with the class as a whole. Should she be paid less than me because her folder is smaller?

Chancer is also in my class. He doesn't love German but used to work. Lately he has started to cause havoc and has stopped doing anything productive in my class. He is very good in Geography, English and Maths. He does excellent work for those teachers... should they be paid more than me?? (Thuggy is not in those classes and Chancer works best when separated from him. They have to do German toghether as their is only one class)

I forgot to mention that I haven't seen Asbo Jr since Easter... He comes and goes but will probably sit the exam for the craic. Is it my fault if he fails. He doesn't really do mornings, or Mondays or Fridays but does show hios face the occasional Thursday afternoon.

How on earth do you monitor productivity? Is it notes, results, ability to deal with the Thuggy's of the world?


**I no longer teach this class, but they exist

This is exactly it, how can you say every class is the same and judge teachers by that. I teach Class A and Class B. Class A are punctual with excellent attendance, own the textbooks, do homework and are interested in my subject. Class B rarely attend, most of them don't own the books and laugh in my face if I assign homework (they are like this for every teacher). If I were to be judged by Class A, I would get the top grade. If I were to be judged by Class B, I would probably lose my job!
I would like to see some sort of performance reviews of teachers but I genuinely don't see how they can do it fairly.

ntlbell

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Not really, I could set objectives that I know the child has already reached if I think it is going to impact on my salary.I could make sure that I get the learning support children I know to be more academic. I could refuse to take children without home support and so on.

Huh?

You test the child, you have the results.

The following years objectives can't be the same every year? so it has to improve?

Plus the child at any point for example could be independently assessed.

There's the bench mark and we go forward.

It seems strange that the people coming up with the ideas that might help in benchmarking are non teachers and it's the teachers finding the way it won't work.

Something doesn't add up.

byhookorbycrook

I am sure down the years that a number of children I put through my hands were less than fond of me at the time, because I would be uncompromising in my attitude towards certain behaviours.

I'm equally sure that I could plámás children bribe them or whatever into giving me a "good" review.

Can you really rely on asking a 5 year old if their teacher is satisfactory?

The WSE has questionnaires for pupils and parents alike,but they are usually done with senior children.

It is affirming to see how that past pupils have grown into adults and are now sending their children to our school,but how do you measure that?Last week,we had seven,yes seven, past pupils around our staffroom table, between permanent staff, subs and student teachers, again, I would see this as a positive.

byhookorbycrook

ntlbell wrote: »

Huh?

You test the child, you have the results.

The following years objectives can't be the same every year? so it has to improve?

Plus the child at any point for example could be independently assessed.

There's the bench mark and we go forward.

It seems strange that the people coming up with the ideas that might help in benchmarking are non teachers and it's the teachers finding the way it won't work.

Something doesn't add up.

I have the results, but the child may not have the matter in their long term memory. Children with dyslexia will read a word today and not recognise it tomorrow.
I can have other objectives for each year- the child will know the high frequency work for senior infants, the child will know the 44 sounds and so on.

Not strange at all that teachers know what won't work and that non-teachers think they know what will-even though the teachers know it won't!!Many non-teachers think they know all about education because they were at school themselves. My going to the dentist doesn't qualify me to tell him/her how to do a filling.

partyatmygaff

savvyav wrote: »

This is exactly it, how can you say every class is the same and judge teachers by that. I teach Class A and Class B. Class A are punctual with excellent attendance, own the textbooks, do homework and are interested in my subject. Class B rarely attend, most of them don't own the books and laugh in my face if I assign homework (they are like this for every teacher). If I were to be judged by Class A, I would get the top grade. If I were to be judged by Class B, I would probably lose my job!
I would like to see some sort of performance reviews of teachers but I genuinely don't see how they can do it fairly.

That situation would be an ideal test for my system.

Imagine that Class A give you a mean score of 93% and that Class B rate you at 25%. Your mean rating as delivered to the department would be 59% which is just below the pass mark.

That will flag you for inspection in the following term. The inspector visits both of your classes and appraises your competency in each. If the examiner deems you competent and sees that Class A's success is down to your teaching and that Class B's failure is down to their attitude then you'll pass the exam/inspection and remain unaffected.

I don't see what's the fuss to be honest. Teachers are professionals. To maintain the good name and integrity of the profession there should be a conscious attempt to weed out incompetent teachers. The good remain unaffected, the bad get progressively harsher financial punishments and the chronically bad face termination and requirement to resit the PGDE/H.Dip.

As I see it, it's a very fair system. The students' reviews don't count as your performance appraisal, it just leads to inspection by your peers in the Department of Education. There's also plenty of opportunity for teacher's to improve. The first decrease is 5%. If you improve in the following term your pay goes back to normal. If you don't improve after one year, your pay drops again to 15%. Again, if you improve after one term your pay rolls back to the preceding level (5% reduction). If you don't improve after one year, your pay is docked by 25%. At that stage, if you improve you're brought back to 15% (And then 5% and 0% if you continue to maintain your score). If you don't improve within a year of being placed in the 25% band you're terminated from your post and suspended from the Teaching Council pending a resit of the PGDE/H.Dip.

I don't see what could possibly be wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with self-regulation in a profession.

ntlbell

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I have the results, but the child may not have the matter in their long term memory. Children with dyslexia will read a word today and not recognise it tomorrow.
I can have other objectives for each year- the child will know the high frequency work for senior infants, the child will know the 44 sounds and so on.

Not strange at all that teachers know what won't work and that non-teachers think they know what will-even though the teachers know it won't!!Many non-teachers think they know all about education because they were at school themselves. My going to the dentist doesn't qualify me to tell him/her how to do a filling.

right, but you must have some thoughts of your own how it MIGHT....JUST....might be possible...no?

instead of all the answers to what won't work?

itzme

Roadtrippin wrote: »

Bring performance-related pay into the classroom say MPs as they target bad teachers
- Report says inferior teaching is having effect on children's long-term prospects

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2137684/Bad-teachers-paid-best-say-MPs.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Finally a good idea to reform the public sector in some ways!

Thank you, UK!!!

Let's hope they go through with this - I totally agree with making public servants adhere to performance reviews and make their wage dependent on it!!!

This is a terrible terrible idea, this whole approach (which is getting more and more attention) requires more and more testing of students to "judge" the "quality" of teachers. While at the same time the general opinion is that the standard of students coming out of education is getting worse and worse, it is not a coincidence that this is happening as we are moving towards a greater reliance and more frequent standardised testing.

I would suggest anyone who seriously thinks this is a good idea should do two things. First sit down and ask yourself type of student our society needs out of education and see if this sort of testing gets it.
Secondly, look at some renowned experts and see what they think to help you see how counter-productive this idea is
http://www.danpink.com/archives/2012/02/eight-points-about-merit-pay-for-teachers?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

ntlbell

itzme wrote: »

This is a terrible terrible idea, this whole approach (which is getting more and more attention) requires more and more testing of students to "judge" the "quality" of teachers. While at the same time the general opinion is that the standard of students coming out of education is getting worse and worse, it is not a coincidence that this is happening as we are moving towards a greater reliance and more frequent standardised testing.

I would suggest anyone who seriously thinks this is a good idea should do two things. First sit down and ask yourself type of student our society needs out of education and see if this sort of testing gets it.
Secondly, look at some renowned experts and see what they think to help you see how counter-productive this idea is
http://www.danpink.com/archives/2012/02/eight-points-about-merit-pay-for-teachers?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

you get the same problem here.

how do you get rid of the underperforming teacher?

byhookorbycrook

ntlbell wrote: »

you get the same problem here.

how do you get rid of the underperforming teacher?

DES inspectors have the power to remove a teacher.

marknjb

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

DES inspectors have the power to remove a teacher.

how often has this happened
i just cant understand how teachers themselves put up with other teachers who they know in thier heart and soul are below par and yet taking home the same pay as the good ones

doc_17

Stupid idea. What about pay cuts for those underperforming ministers when they don't cut the mustard. Let's move on.

partyatmygaff

doc_17 wrote: »

Stupid idea. What about pay cuts for those underperforming ministers when they don't cut the mustard. Let's move on.

How is that going to help weed out incompetent teachers?

This isn't a money-saving exercise. The main idea is to improve teaching standards and improve the image of teaching in Ireland.

Flashgordon197

Roadtrippin wrote: »

Bring performance-related pay into the classroom say MPs as they target bad teachers
- Report says inferior teaching is having effect on children's long-term prospects

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2137684/Bad-teachers-paid-best-say-MPs.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Finally a good idea to reform the public sector in some ways!

Thank you, UK!!!

Let's hope they go through with this - I totally agree with making public servants adhere to performance reviews and make their wage dependent on it!!!

No offence but you mate obviously know very very little if anything about the UK system. The average teacher leaves after five years and their expulsion rate is way higher than ours. Please see the thread on discipline . I presume this is a joke-tell me you are joking?
But lets start with the fathers of miscreants-can they be rated?

ian87

Hang on a second and think about this logically. I am a primary school teacher teaching in a stereotypical inner city school. I have one child aged 8 who can barely write his own name. He gets absolutely no input from home regards homework or encouragement to do well. His peers aren't quite that weak but I am still on a daily basis reminding the children to put spaces between words etc. Many of those said children come from homes where education is not top of the agenda and homework can be a suggestion not a requirement. Now on the flip side I taught in a stereotypical middle class school last year, teaching 9 year olds. We can take cursive writing as an example and as a contrast. Not one child was unable to write using cursive script. Same teacher, almost the same aged children yet huge differences in ability and background.

Now am I any less of a teacher now than I was last year?

I'm not saying that performance related pay is a bad idea. If one is putting in the work like 99% of my colleagues are performance related pay should be nothing to fear.

BUT

How does one measure performance subjectively and fairly?

Would this system be open to abuse?Many teachers can be only one misinterpreted remark away from an over zealous parent or student with a grudge?
Could this have an effect on the assessment of said performance?

I'm not getting on my high horse but many performance related salaries are based on sales etc areas where performance can be more black and White, where as teaching is open to interpretation and prior knowledge of the students, their abilities, backgrounds and hundreds of other variables..

Ms.M

Teaching is not riddled with incompetency. The vast majority of people who become teachers take seriously the impact they will have on a child's future and would not like to be spoken about in a negative light by students, parents and colleagues. I really don't think teachers need more motivation.
The biggest threat to quality learning in the current climate are the massive, mixed-level classes. Any additional money would be best spent there.

In my experience, everybody knows who the underperforming teachers are. Most of the school body anyway. The students identify them and they identify themselves as well by the anti-doing-a-lot comments they make.
It would be a waste to spend money identifying who these teachers are. The suggestions so far take for granted the cooperation of principals, other teachers and boards of management. Why not just ask them directly who the incompetent teachers are?
A lot could improve just by simple monitoring: i.e teachers being asked to produce their personal schemes at the start of each month, teachers showing dates of results of formative assessments (not to judge results but to ensure teachers are providing formative assessment regularly), and teachers being allocated certain areas of the course to produce resources on and share with the rest of their department.
Don't do the work... get called to the principal's office :eek:... refuse to do the work... out you go! :cool:

byhookorbycrook

Ms.M wrote: »

A lot could improve just by simple monitoring: i.e teachers being asked to produce their personal schemes at the start of each month, teachers showing dates of results of formative assessments (not to judge results but to ensure teachers are providing formative assessment regularly), and teachers being allocated certain areas of the course to produce resources on and share with the rest of their department.
Don't do the work... get called to the principal's office :eek:... refuse to do the work... out you go! :cool:

Most primary principals do this. Schemes of work are kept and at the end of each month a scheme showing what exactly has been covered is given to the principal.If a teacher refuses to comply they can be brought before the Board of Management and ultimately the DES.