Obligatory, wage-affecting performance reviews for teachers - a great idea!

Powerhouse

ntlbell wrote: »

Just about every job has variations but we managge to deal with them]

I have all ready pointed out.

averages.

you don't have to base a pay increase on a single student.

peer review.

independant review.

a 360 approach with personal and perforamance related goals.

You take averages.

The teacher stays in the average of her peer group.

if it drops of it's investigated and if needs be monitored or put on "probation" then around we go again.

There is TONS of solutions. The issue I see is the teachers are not putting them forward as this would put the responsibility back on to them to perform.

This has all the management clichés bar 'blue-sky thinking' but is inevitably very vague on nitty gritty.

Anyway I never said other jobs don't have variations just that they might not have as many variables as teaching.

I think the reason teachers are not "putting them forward" is that they are far more aware than management-speak types as to the problems with trite attempts to paint all teachers and their circumstances the same.

Frankly I feel I am being reviewed on a daily basis by 200 students and their parents who can lift the phone any time they choose. Not too many jobs have that.

partyatmygaff

Powerhouse wrote: »

Frankly I feel I am being reviewed on a daily basis by 200 students and their parents who can lift the phone any time they choose. Not too many jobs have that.

Every single publicly funded (Or contracted) professional has that and more.

Doctors/Pharmacists/Dentists/Physiotherapists/Nurses all see hundreds of people every year. If they aren't good at their job they don't just get fired, they might even face legal action. That's why they self-regulate.

Teachers call themselves professionals. If you want to maintain that image, you need to introduce a proper system of self-regulation to ensure that bad teachers don't taint people's perception of teachers as a whole.

ntlbell

Powerhouse wrote: »

This has all the management clichés bar 'blue-sky thinking' but is inevitably very vague on nitty gritty.

Anyway I never said other jobs don't have variations just that they might not have as many variables as teaching.

I think the reason teachers are not "putting them forward" is that they are far more aware than management-speak types as to the problems with trite attempts to paint all teachers and their circumstances the same.

Frankly I feel I am being reviewed on a daily basis by 200 students and their parents who can lift the phone any time they choose. Not too many jobs have that.

Oh you mean it sounds like a professional coperate environment who have to perform to gain merit increases and insure their employment?

I think that was the general idea.....

I'm just running the flag up the pole to see who salutes it :pac:

savvyav

partyatmygaff wrote: »

That situation would be an ideal test for my system.

Imagine that Class A give you a mean score of 93% and that Class B rate you at 25%. Your mean rating as delivered to the department would be 59% which is just below the pass mark.

That will flag you for inspection in the following term. The inspector visits both of your classes and appraises your competency in each. If the examiner deems you competent and sees that Class A's success is down to your teaching and that Class B's failure is down to their attitude then you'll pass the exam/inspection and remain unaffected.

I don't see what's the fuss to be honest. Teachers are professionals. To maintain the good name and integrity of the profession there should be a conscious attempt to weed out incompetent teachers. The good remain unaffected, the bad get progressively harsher financial punishments and the chronically bad face termination and requirement to resit the PGDE/H.Dip.

As I see it, it's a very fair system. The students' reviews don't count as your performance appraisal, it just leads to inspection by your peers in the Department of Education. There's also plenty of opportunity for teacher's to improve. The first decrease is 5%. If you improve in the following term your pay goes back to normal. If you don't improve after one year, your pay drops again to 15%. Again, if you improve after one term your pay rolls back to the preceding level (5% reduction). If you don't improve after one year, your pay is docked by 25%. At that stage, if you improve you're brought back to 15% (And then 5% and 0% if you continue to maintain your score). If you don't improve within a year of being placed in the 25% band you're terminated from your post and suspended from the Teaching Council pending a resit of the PGDE/H.Dip.

I don't see what could possibly be wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with self-regulation in a profession.

I think linking pay to student performance is such a bad idea. At this stage,I would prefer to see Class B all pass my subject than have everyone in Class A get over a C1 as Class B would have to change their attitudes and put a lot of work in to get that pass. It mightn't look great on a league table but I would find it more impressive. Plus Class B are easily bribed- all I'd have to do is give them cake the day before they review me and they'd give me 100%. How do you stop that?
Also, are you going to have different performance targets for private schools and public schools? Presumably people who send their kids to private schools can afford to send their kids to the Gaelthacht at least once during secondary school- surely those kids should do better in Irish then? I am aware I am making a sweeping generalisation here but that is basically what performance reviews would be going. Even though every student is an individual, every school is different and every teacher is different, let's expect teachers to get the same results every year, which is not achievable.

partyatmygaff

savvyav wrote: »

I think linking pay to student performance is such a bad idea. At this stage,I would prefer to see Class B all pass my subject than have everyone in Class A get over a C1 as Class B would have to change their attitudes and put a lot of work in to get that pass. It mightn't look great on a league table but I would find it more impressive. Plus Class B are easily bribed- all I'd have to do is give them cake the day before they review me and they'd give me 100%. How do you stop that?

I am starting to think people aren't even reading what I said. Not once did I say teacher's pay will be linked to student performance.

As for bribing e.t.c. the review process will be carried out by the Department of Education. If a student tried to bribe you for a top grade, you wouldn't entertain their request. The same goes for a teacher trying to bribe their class. If a student thinks their teacher is incompetent, they'll say so.

Also, are you going to have different performance targets for private schools and public schools? Presumably people who send their kids to private schools can afford to send their kids to the Gaelthacht at least once during secondary school- surely those kids should do better in Irish then? I am aware I am making a sweeping generalisation here but that is basically what performance reviews would be going. Even though every student is an individual, every school is different and every teacher is different, let's expect teachers to get the same results every year, which is not achievable.

I really hope you just surface read my post. If you properly read my posts and came to the conclusion that I was suggesting pay being linked to the academic performance of a teacher's students then I'm at a loss at what to tell you.

ntlbell

savvyav wrote: »

I think linking pay to student performance is such a bad idea. At this stage,I would prefer to see Class B all pass my subject than have everyone in Class A get over a C1 as Class B would have to change their attitudes and put a lot of work in to get that pass. It mightn't look great on a league table but I would find it more impressive. Plus Class B are easily bribed- all I'd have to do is give them cake the day before they review me and they'd give me 100%. How do you stop that?
Also, are you going to have different performance targets for private schools and public schools? Presumably people who send their kids to private schools can afford to send their kids to the Gaelthacht at least once during secondary school- surely those kids should do better in Irish then? I am aware I am making a sweeping generalisation here but that is basically what performance reviews would be going. Even though every student is an individual, every school is different and every teacher is different, let's expect teachers to get the same results every year, which is not achievable.

Why is it any different from any other form of evaluation or performance review, why is teaching so special/

If you have a global company with 15k sales people working different markets with different products in different languaes in different economies in different countries etc. yet we can mange to easily figure out if they deserved a merit increase or not?

Wow, just wow.

The mantra was teachers taught because they loved the job, now we're predicting teachers bribing young kids with cake.

are you kidding me?

doc_17

See the problem as I see it is people thinking that schools are in any way comparable to the private sector. In the wonderful world of the private sector ( how much of a bonus btw did fingers get for handing over INBS to us?) you have service providers (employers and employees) and customers. At any time it's easy for either party to sever the relationship.

Schools are not the private sector. In most cases they cannot select who they teach and on what terms.

If so there woul be numerous health and safety issues and bullying issues to be dealt with.

In the private sector would people tolerate working under conditions such as sexual harassment on a daily basis?

ntlbell

doc_17 wrote: »

In the private sector would people tolerate working under conditions such as sexual harassment on a daily basis?

no, nor should anyone in the public sector.

complete irrelevant to the topic tho.

how do we deal with sexual harassment in public work place != how to rate a teachers performance.

byhookorbycrook

ntlbell wrote: »

no, nor should anyone in the public sector.

complete irrelevant to the topic tho.

how do we deal with sexual harassment in public work place != how to rate a teachers performance.

Not irrelevant at all. So, how do you propose we deal with it in the public sector?Expulsion is not an option, suspension doesn't solve any thing either.Creches have to have about 1 adult to 8 kids, yet the day the child leaves the crech he is thrown into a group of 30+ ,so should the public sector demand the same ratio as private?

Feeona

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Doctors/Pharmacists/Dentists/Physiotherapists/Nurses all see hundreds of people every year. If they aren't good at their job they don't just get fired, they might even face legal action. That's why they self-regulate.

Powerhouse's example lists 200 hundred students, and assuming each student has both parents that's a possibility of 600 people reviewing a teacher's performance per day (at the very most). Being a primary school teacher, my possible review numbers would be much less, 30 children, 60 parents (at most). The bigger the numbers get, the bigger the variables are. And this I think is the crux of why people who work as teachers are slow to take on your ideas about student reviews. You really do not know what people are going to be saying about you. As it is, a teacher is fair game. A school I worked in last year had a small group of mothers who used to stand outside the school gate giving out about the teachers as they walked by to collect their students from the yard. So you can imagine what other people would say if they so wished. Thankfully the majority of parents in that school were sound, but it's always the one or two parents who put you on tenterhooks over the silliest things, and their children are usually the ones who are waiting to 'catch teacher out' because this is all they hear at home! Once again, the possibilities for informal review are endless because of the numbers involved, and the public nature of teaching (in my opinion and from experience).

Re self regulation : already exists in schools. Every teacher needs to do fortnightly and monthly notes for the work they do with their class. Assessment records for behaviour, social skills and learning are constantly updated for parent-teacher meetings (which can be organised at any time by any parent, open door policy). Policies are also written up to ensure the safety of children, plus the physical and legal safety of school staff. There are structures in place to ensure that a school runs well and that children have the opportunity to learn in a safe environment. Whole school evaluations by the DES (while admittedly not regular) review school structure and teaching standards across a school, and results for these are published on the DES website.

Your ideas are good and you've gone into great detail as to how they should work (much appreciated), but I still can't see how being reviewed by students would work (for the reasons outlined in the first paragraph), it's extremely personal and one-sided as there really is no onus on students to be honest and/or unbiased.

partyatmygaff

Feeona wrote: »

Powerhouse's example lists 200 hundred students, and assuming each student has both parents that's a possibility of 600 people reviewing a teacher's performance per day (at the very most). Being a primary school teacher, my possible review numbers would be much less, 30 children, 60 parents (at most). The bigger the numbers get, the bigger the variables are.

That's not a proper review system. There needs to be a formal link between students and the Department of Education.

And this I think is the crux of why people who work as teachers are slow to take on your ideas about student reviews. You really do not know what people are going to be saying about you. As it is, a teacher is fair game. A school I worked in last year had a small group of mothers who used to stand outside the school gate giving out about the teachers as they walked by to collect their students from the yard. So you can imagine what other people would say if they so wished. Thankfully the majority of parents in that school were sound, but it's always the one or two parents who put you on tenterhooks over the silliest things, and their children are usually the ones who are waiting to 'catch teacher out' because this is all they hear at home! Once again, the possibilities for informal review are endless because of the numbers involved, and the public nature of teaching (in my opinion and from experience).

Don't really know where you're going with this or how it's relevant. Informal reviews evidently don't make that big of a difference.

Re self regulation : already exists in schools. Every teacher needs to do fortnightly and monthly notes for the work they do with their class.

A teacher can write whatever plans and notes you like. Action, not words is evidence of teaching ability.

Your ideas are good and you've gone into great detail as to how they should work (much appreciated), but I still can't see how being reviewed by students would work (for the reasons outlined in the first paragraph), it's extremely personal and one-sided as there really is no onus on students to be honest and/or unbiased.

You seem to be still under the belief that students will have any say in how your performance is assessed. The sole purpose of the student review is to flag teachers who students feel isn't competent to do their job. That's the extent of their input. It'll be another teacher working for DoE that ultimately decides whether or not the teacher in question is competent.

Powerhouse

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Every single publicly funded (Or contracted) professional has that and more.

Doctors/Pharmacists/Dentists/Physiotherapists/Nurses all see hundreds of people every year. If they aren't good at their job they don't just get fired, they might even face legal action. That's why they self-regulate.

So - to ask a question often asked rhetorically of teachers - how many physios or doctors or dentists were sacked for performing badly last year? None I'd venture.

I worked in the private sector and such decisions tended to revolve around money rather than performance. I never saw anyone sacked for under-performing even though not everyone killed themselves.

As for facing legal action...well if little Johnny breaks into my room and then busts his head climbing out chances are (bizarrely and inexplicably) I am far more likely to be legally responsible for it than he is. That doesn't really make me feel any more professional or meritorious - maybe it works that way for nurses I'm not sure.

There are also those who would argue that 'self-regulation' is just a glorified term for a union.

partyatmygaff

Powerhouse wrote: »

So - to ask a question often asked rhetorically of teachers - how many physios or doctors or dentists were sacked for performing badly last year? None I'd venture.

Is that because self-regulation doesn't occur or because they're mostly competent? Jumping to conclusions doesn't help.

Benicetomonty

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Is that because self-regulation doesn't occur or because they're mostly competent? Jumping to conclusions doesn't help.

Or because they have the right to refuse to treat particular patients. Or at least private practitioners have that right.

Ms.M

Of course we self-regulate partyatmygaff. We work in an environment where we are constantly being judged. Often very negatively and unfairly.
I think finding out I had been "flagged for inspection" would damage my morale even if I did have an opportunity to prove myself. I'm under enough stress as it is.

I think the incidental inspections are a good idea because they're fair. I can't think of anything that would work better.
Why not just have more of them? What objection do posters on this forum who favour performance review have to incidental inspections?

Feeona

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Don't really know where you're going with this or how it's relevant. Informal reviews evidently don't make that big of a difference.

I mentioned it because it might give an insight as to why teachers would be slow to accept student review and not because 'they just don't want to be held accountable'. This is just my opinion though.

A teacher can write whatever plans and notes you like. Action, not words is evidence of teaching ability.

It's all part of self regulation. This was in repsonse to your piece about nurses, dentists etc having self regulation.


You seem to be still under the belief that students will have any say in how your performance is assessed. The sole purpose of the student review is to flag teachers who students feel isn't competent to do their job. That's the extent of their input. It'll be another teacher working for DoE that ultimately decides whether or not the teacher in question is competent.

Of course incompetent teachers should be flagged, and rightly so. Having worked with students however, I know it wouldn't be as simple as asking them to be honest and open in their review. A student might hold a grudge because you've asked them to raise their hand to ask a question, or asked them to sit in their seat. If there was a way that students HAD to be honest and unbiased in their review, then it might work. Personally, I would hate it if my abillity to teach was called into question all because a few students decided to 'pay me back' for asking them to be quiet in class. Doesn't matter if the inspector thinks I'm a great teacher, your ability is still being questioned and all because of something put down 'for the craic, let's see what happens'.

It wouldn't do much for the relationship between class and teacher either. You're in a situation where you need to cajole students to work, and the fact that an inspector was called in would be enough for some to say 'sure you don't know what you're doing'.

Can you answer this question for me please? How would you feel in your job* if you had a group of thirty customers/clients you work very closely with. Your work involves having to tell these customers/clients what they need to do, sometimes they don't do what they're told to do because they're not interested in what you're telling them to do. Some customers bear a grudge even though you know you have their best interests at heart. They review you, and you receive notification that due to the review, you will be receiving an inspection.

1. How would you feel knowing that your ability is being called into question because a few people hold a grudge? You know in your heart and soul you're doing your best for these clients, so why the review?
2. What do you think your relationship would be like between you and your customers after the review?

*I can't even think of a job where one would tell (uninterested) customers what to do!

Feeona

Ms.M wrote: »

I think finding out I had been "flagged for inspection" would damage my morale even if I did have an opportunity to prove myself.

Hmmmm my way of saying this was far more long winded :pac:

doc_17

ntlbell wrote: »

no, nor should anyone in the public sector.

complete irrelevant to the topic tho.

how do we deal with sexual harassment in public work place != how to rate a teachers performance.

Of course the conditions that people have to work in shouldn't be relevant to their performance. What was I thinking. I am so sorry for bringing the thread of topic.

jonseyblub

partyatmygaff wrote: »

The sole purpose of the student review is to flag teachers who students feel isn't competent to do their job..

If you were a plasterer or a painter who had just finished doing a job on a 7 year old's bedroom and the 7 year old didn't like it even though you had done exactly as his/her parents had asked, would you feel comfortable with that same 7 year old going to your next customer and telling him you were bad at your job?

No? Essentially thats what you are asking teachers to do. The teacher has 25-30 7 year olds in front of him and does what he is trained to do in terms of controlling the class, getting work done but annoys one of them because there was no time to get around to answering one of his questions. If you have a seven year old you'll know that this is frequently the case when they'll be seriously cheesed off for no apparent reason. This same 7 year old then happens to be asked his opinion of his teacher. What do you think he will say?

I know what you are saying in terms of kids need to have some input in the evaluation process but most at Primary school (and a large percentage at second level too) are just too immature to give a balanced opinion either good or bad.
These unannounced inspections in my opinion are a far better indicator of how a teacher is doing because the inspectors are professionals and should understand all the variables that are present in the different range of classes. So if a teacher is teaching a group of kids with special needs or the most able students the inspector should know whether the teacher is doing his/her job properly.

partyatmygaff

Ms.M wrote: »

I think the incidental inspections are a good idea because they're fair. I can't think of anything that would work better.
Why not just have more of them? What objection do posters on this forum who favour performance review have to incidental inspections?

None. The main issue is that they don't occur anywhere near often enough and teachers get notice of inspections which allows them to prepare for the day. At most, over my entire time in primary and secondary school I saw eight inspections. Every single time the teacher either tried to bribe the class to be good (No homework if you behave yourselves on the day) or threatened the class with severe punishments.

Feeona wrote: »

Of course incompetent teachers should be flagged, and rightly so. Having worked with students however, I know it wouldn't be as simple as asking them to be honest and open in their review. A student might hold a grudge because you've asked them to raise their hand to ask a question, or asked them to sit in their seat. If there was a way that students HAD to be honest and unbiased in their review, then it might work.

Losing the right to review and possibly giving your teacher a pay rise would be enough of a deterrent I think.

Personally, I would hate it if my abillity to teach was called into question all because a few students decided to 'pay me back' for asking them to be quiet in class. Doesn't matter if the inspector thinks I'm a great teacher, your ability is still being questioned and all because of something put down 'for the craic, let's see what happens'.

Problem students who would do that would be down weighted. As for "normal" students we're usually fair when it comes to things like these.

Can you answer this question for me please? How would you feel in your job* if you had a group of thirty customers/clients you work very closely with. Your work involves having to tell these customers/clients what they need to do, sometimes they don't do what they're told to do because they're not interested in what you're telling them to do. Some customers bear a grudge even though you know you have their best interests at heart. They review you, and you receive notification that due to the review, you will be receiving an inspection.

Sounds an awful lot like a Doctor or Pharmacist advising their patients to do something and them completely ignoring the advice being given to them and then blaming the doctor/pharmacist for their health problems. If you know you're not doing anything wrong, it's at best mildly annoying.

1. How would you feel knowing that your ability is being called into question because a few people hold a grudge? You know in your heart and soul you're doing your best for these clients, so why the review?

You know your ability and other teachers are more than capable of assessing your ability. What some students think of you isn't *hugely* important.

2. What do you think your relationship would be like between you and your customers after the review?

You could be a bit annoyed with them but as a professional you should be able to leave personal feelings out of the equation where possible.

*I can't even think of a job where one would tell (uninterested) customers what to do!

I can think of many...

jonseyblub wrote: »

If you were a plasterer or a painter who had just finished doing a job on a 7 year old's bedroom and the 7 year old didn't like it even though you had done exactly as his/her parents had asked, would you feel comfortable with that same 7 year old going to your next customer and telling him you were bad at your job?

No? Essentially thats what you are asking teachers to do. The teacher has 25-30 7 year olds in front of him and does what he is trained to do in terms of controlling the class, getting work done but annoys one of them because there was no time to get around to answering one of his questions. If you have a seven year old you'll know that this is frequently the case when they'll be seriously cheesed off for no apparent reason. This same 7 year old then happens to be asked his opinion of his teacher. What do you think he will say?

I know what you are saying in terms of kids need to have some input in the evaluation process but most at Primary school (and a large percentage at second level too) are just too immature to give a balanced opinion either good or bad.
These unannounced inspections in my opinion are a far better indicator of how a teacher is doing because the inspectors are professionals and should understand all the variables that are present in the different range of classes. So if a teacher is teaching a group of kids with special needs or the most able students the inspector should know whether the teacher is doing his/her job properly.

I never said anything about primary schools.

jonseyblub

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I never said anything about primary schools.

My main point was that school children are not mature enough to give an unbiased report good or bad. I did say that my point applied to a large percentage of second level students too but if it makes you feel better substitute 12 year old for 7 year old.

byhookorbycrook

There is a huge increase in the number of incidental visits at primary level. In the last 6 years, we have had six dips-so the inspector has been in and ou of the school and two incidentals on top of this.The inspector is no fool, she can spot what is going on and consults with the principal. She told us that all seems satisfactory,thankfully.

The WSE has become less of a dog and pony show, as there is far less notice given-which is how it should be.

Ms.M

Partyatmygaff, teachers do not receive any warning of incidental inspections.

An inspector shows up on the day with no prior notification and shadows your classes for the day.

They've only been taking place since the start of this school year as far as I'm aware. One inspector can inspect a different teacher every day so it's relatively cost effective. And it is fairer and provides an accurate idea of a teachers' competencies. They check students' copies (their selection; not the teacher's), they can ask to see lesson plans and schemes of work for the year. They can also check your records of tests, homework, absentees etc and ask about your discipline techniques. This in addition to witnessing your classes themselves.

I think it's working well.
It should be continued and even expanded. I don't see any reason why resources should be directed elsewhere. It is a comprehensive and transparent review system.

queensinead

Roadtrippin wrote: »

These are all very good questions and clearly I don't have all the answers. I'm not the HEA.
I think it is a good idea to implement regular appraisals though, for example,
like I suggested above, regular random classroom observations like you have to go through during your HDip should be standard practice as part of the appraisal.
These observations can be done by colleagues or other teachers from partner schools etc. Reports could be sent to the teacher in question first so they get a chance to improve if there is any shortcomings.

Teachers already have "regular appraisals" through a very rigorous inspection process. But for now their wage rate, or their career, does not depend on the result. But I think that is going to change with the Teaching Council

Secondary teachers have Whole School Evaluations where everything, including classroom performance, is checked. Then there are subject inspections where all teachers in a subject area are inspected.
And this year saw the introduction of spot-check inspetions, where an inspector arrives unannounced and randomly inspects teaching. Most schools have had one of the spot-check inspections.
Many schools have had up to three different inspection in this academic year alone.

(Forget about "in my time in school we only had one inspector". The whole inspection system has been overhauled and inspections are very regular)

So the "performance reviews" are in place. The results are uploaded onto the Web. No doubt pay scales will be linked into these inspections in the future.

Powerhouse

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Is that because self-regulation doesn't occur or because they're mostly competent? Jumping to conclusions doesn't help.

I don't know the answer, but I would have thought that the notion that it is in practice far less easy to remove such people than some of the traditional rhetoric allows could at least enter consideration.

I have no difficulty with the idea of not jumping to conclusions if that latitude was also applicable when the weekly attack on teachers is in full swing here.

partyatmygaff

partyatmygaff wrote: »

If my suggested system was ever implemented it would be managed mainly by the principal and the Department of Education.

What would the principal do?

What would the Department do?

ntlbell

doc_17 wrote: »

Of course the conditions that people have to work in shouldn't be relevant to their performance. What was I thinking. I am so sorry for bringing the thread of topic.

harrasment is not isolated to teaching.

Feeona

partyatmygaff wrote: »

What some students think of you isn't *hugely* important.

If a student's opinion about his/her teacher isn't that important, what's the point in asking for his/her opinion in the first place?

seavill

partyatmygaff wrote: »

None. The main issue is that they don't occur anywhere near often enough and teachers get notice of inspections which allows them to prepare for the day.

FACTUALLY INCORRECT STATEMENT.

This is true for normal subject or whole school inspections.

Incidental inspections - the inspector turns up at 9am and says I'm going to this class now. Simple as. No notice given.

At most, over my entire time in primary and secondary school I saw eight inspections. Every single time the teacher either tried to bribe the class to be good (No homework if you behave yourselves on the day) or threatened the class with severe punishments.

The inspectorate has increased its remit and number of employees over the past number of years. Along with the introduction of things like MIL and incidental inspections. Years ago was not a common sight, nowadays a much more common thing. This year there have been 4 inspections in our school along with a MIL inspection at the end of last year and 5 subject inspections also last year. You could go years without seeing one however this is less and less common these days compared to when we were young. The only time I ever remember seeing an inspector when I was young was in primary school, never saw one in secondary school

Losing the right to review and possibly giving your teacher a pay rise would be enough of a deterrent I think.

I can't believe that you actually deep down believe that this will actually be the case for all students. I know you are going to argue that other one or two won't make a difference but why set up a system that is so clearly flawed so. If you have no objections to inspectors why not just submit the idea of the government having a huge increase in the numbers of inspectors so problem solved. Each school should then see at least one inspector once a month for different subjects.

Problem students who would do that would be down weighted.
Labelling "problem students" these names are put on a list compiled by the school? the department? who sees this list, where does it go? is it made known to the student population who is not allowed vote. I would love to meet mammy that day we are calling her child a trouble maker.
As for "normal" students we're usually fair when it comes to things like these.
"You saying my son isn't normal"?????

Sounds an awful lot like a Doctor or Pharmacist advising their patients to do something and them completely ignoring the advice being given to them and then blaming the doctor/pharmacist for their health problems. If you know you're not doing anything wrong, it's at best mildly annoying.

If an inspector was called into my class due to bad reports for a particular class group, enough to get an inspector called, but all other class groups no bad reports. I would be raging, not mildly annoyed.
Anyone in any walk of life would be more than "mildly annoyed" when their boss arrives in the door "look a group of your customers believer your are not up to your job so we are going to let them see that we don't trust you either so due to them being vindictive they are going to see an inspector in the back of your class. You will then forever be getting comments about not being up to the job.
This will happen for fact with this proposal.
A school has been in the paper recently with the mention of people not teaching their proper subjects and the possibility of some teachers in that school not being qualified. Teachers in that school have in the past week been questioned by their 1st and 2nd years "are you qualified to teach us" etc. Some of these teachers have been teaching there 10 and 20 years and are fully qualified.
One teacher who has been teaching honors maths in this school for 15 years and is fully qualified to do so. A rumor was started by a student that they are one of the unqualified maths teachers in the school.
This rumor has now gone around the school as "fact" and I had a student from that school whom I know outside of school telling me about this "unqualified teacher for the last 15 years"

They are kids in the end of the day. A rumour is suddenly fact the second they hear it. These things can ruin someones reputation and career.

An inspector that arrive regularly to every teacher no matter how good or bad to check on all of them is a fair and equitable way of doing it. I am not saying that kids should have no input at all into the process.

But your idea of determining whether an inspector arrives at the door or not based on averages from nothing but student ratings is deeply flawed as explained above.

You know your ability and other teachers are more than capable of assessing your ability. What some students think of you isn't *hugely* important.

You could be a bit annoyed with them but as a professional you should be able to leave personal feelings out of the equation where possible.


I can think of many...

I never said anything about primary schools.

s

Roadtrippin

queensinead wrote: »

Teachers already have "regular appraisals" through a very rigorous inspection process. But for now their wage rate, or their career, does not depend on the result. But I think that is going to change with the Teaching Council

Secondary teachers have Whole School Evaluations where everything, including classroom performance, is checked. Then there are subject inspections where all teachers in a subject area are inspected.
And this year saw the introduction of spot-check inspetions, where an inspector arrives unannounced and randomly inspects teaching. Most schools have had one of the spot-check inspections.
Many schools have had up to three different inspection in this academic year alone.

(Forget about "in my time in school we only had one inspector". The whole inspection system has been overhauled and inspections are very regular)

So the "performance reviews" are in place. The results are uploaded onto the Web. No doubt pay scales will be linked into these inspections in the future.

Thanks for informing us. This is very interesting. I obviously need to learn a thing or two about the appraisal process that is already in place.

The one thing that is missing so to make it work better is definitely a connection to teacher's wages.

I don't care if this is an unpopular opinion!

It works in the private teaching sector why not in the public?

Roadtrippin

golden lane wrote: »

this is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard in my life........we are paying too much to give our kids a basic education......but this is not the answer..

Ha, here's an idea -

How about you actually state your case and don't straight away dismiss.

You wanna have an open discussion I'm all for it!

As I said on earlier pages this post was designed to get people talking about the issue not to say that the suggestion by UK MPs is the solution for everything!!!

I am very tired of people just dismissing things and then not at least saying what they would do instead to improve the teacher appraisal process.

From where I am standing, the system the way it is does NOT WORK VERY WELL.

Mostly in the public sector have you people afraid of performance reviews that affect their wages.

Why is that, I ask? If you are a good teacher what have you to worry about?

Gurgle

Roadtrippin wrote: »

From where I am standing, the system the way it is does NOT WORK VERY WELL.

Its difficult to put this in context without more information on where you are standing. Please elaborate.

Are you:
A teacher?
A professional in the private sector with an equivalent education level (i.e. Masters / H.Dip)?
An unskilled /semi-skilled private sector worker?
Educated to similar level and unemployed?
Undereducated / unskilled and unemployed?

And how do you judge whether the system is working?
Purely on the oft broadcast axiom 'our children are crap at science and maths', or have you more information?
Or purely on the other oft broadcast 'THE AVERAGE TEACHER EARNS €50k!!!111!'?

Roadtrippin

Gurgle wrote: »

Its difficult to put this in context without more information on where you are standing. Please elaborate.

Are you:
A teacher?
A professional in the private sector with an equivalent education level (i.e. Masters / H.Dip)?
An unskilled /semi-skilled private sector worker?
Educated to similar level and unemployed?
Undereducated / unskilled and unemployed?

And how do you judge whether the system is working?
Purely on the oft broadcast axiom 'our children are crap at science and maths', or have you more information?
Or purely on the other oft broadcast 'THE AVERAGE TEACHER EARNS €50k!!!111!'?

On earlier pages I did divulge some information on what I do and where I come from in terms of views on teaching. I am a part-time teacher in a school and university as well as a researcher in pedagogy and teaching practice.

My perspective is mainly that from where I stand, particularly in languages, results after 10 or more years of learning Irish, for example, are below what I would expect. The question is why? There's several issues that play into this, but one of them being that language teachers are not required to attend any teacher training days...

I could go on and on about why I think regular feedback drives by fellow teachers/inspectors should be connected to wages so there is an incentive for teachers to improve.

Gurgle

Roadtrippin wrote: »

I am a part-time teacher in a school and university as well as a researcher in pedagogy and teaching practice.

Cool, your opinion is actually qualified

In the first place, I believe that the majority of teachers are intelligent, well educated professionals who work hard and do their best to get the relevant information into their students heads.

The remaining minority are those who could do the job but can't be bothered, can't do the job because they don't know their subject material, can't do the job because they're crap at explaining stuff to kids.

The first is a management / disciplinary issue. I know that 20 years ago there were teachers like that, and now that my eldest has started secondary I've found out that they're still there. However I believe there has to be something in their contracts that requires them to do the job they're paid for. Everyone involved is culpable for these wasters remaining in classrooms, from the principle to the board of management to the department to the unions.

The second could be mitigated by a system where every teacher must sit the Junior Cert / Leaving Cert every year in every subject they teach. Anything less than an A and they are automatically blocked from teaching that subject.

The third is probably the most difficult to deal with. I've got nothing.

Roadtrippin

Gurgle wrote: »

Cool, your opinion is actually qualified

In the first place, I believe that the majority of teachers are intelligent, well educated professionals who work hard and do their best to get the relevant information into their students heads.

The remaining minority are those who could do the job but can't be bothered, can't do the job because they don't know their subject material, can't do the job because they're crap at explaining stuff to kids.

The first is a management / disciplinary issue. I know that 20 years ago there were teachers like that, and now that my eldest has started secondary I've found out that they're still there. However I believe there has to be something in their contracts that requires them to do the job they're paid for. Everyone involved is culpable for these wasters remaining in classrooms, from the principle to the board of management to the department to the unions.

The second could be mitigated by a system where every teacher must sit the Junior Cert / Leaving Cert every year in every subject they teach. Anything less than an A and they are automatically blocked from teaching that subject.

The third is probably the most difficult to deal with. I've got nothing.

Agree with you in every single point you make We should be boards buddies

byhookorbycrook

Gurgle wrote: »

The second could be mitigated by a system where every teacher must sit the Junior Cert / Leaving Cert every year in every subject they teach. Anything less than an A and they are automatically blocked from teaching that subject.

The third is probably the most difficult to deal with. I've got nothing.

Do primary teachers have to get a STEN ten in the Drumcondras then??Sorry, Gurgle,that suggestion is laughable.

Powerhouse

Gurgle wrote: »

The second could be mitigated by a system where every teacher must sit the Junior Cert / Leaving Cert every year in every subject they teach. Anything less than an A and they are automatically blocked from teaching that subject.

Not sure which is funnier - the image of the teacher sitting in the corner of the exam hall doing the Junior Cert (incidentally people have no idea how easy these exams would be for teachers teaching the material year in year out!) or the fact that some people agree with you that it is part of the way forward!

Powerhouse

Roadtrippin wrote: »

1) My perspective is mainly that from where I stand, particularly in languages, results after 10 or more years of learning Irish, for example, are below what I would expect. The question is why?

2) There's several issues that play into this, but one of them being that language teachers are not required to attend any teacher training days...

1) As you say there may be several reasons. Could one of them be that you might not have exerted yourself or that you were simply not very good at the subject/languages? That happens. I have people in front of me who get the same teaching but fare quite differently in exams.

2) Not sure where you're getting this from but I have been on four teacher-training days in the past 18 months or so, as have all the pther language teachers in my school. You might need to be more sure of your ground on basic issues if you are in the business of educational research.

byhookorbycrook

Biggest issue in Irish is the attitude that a number of parents think it's pointless and pass that to the children.

vamos!

Roadtrippin wrote: »

On earlier pages I did divulge some information on what I do and where I come from in terms of views on teaching. I am a part-time teacher in a school and university as well as a researcher in pedagogy and teaching practice.

My perspective is mainly that from where I stand, particularly in languages, results after 10 or more years of learning Irish, for example, are below what I would expect. The question is why? There's several issues that play into this, but one of them being that language teachers are not required to attend any teacher training days...

I could go on and on about why I think regular feedback drives by fellow teachers/inspectors should be connected to wages so there is an incentive for teachers to improve.

You teach German at second level, right? What courses are on offer to German teachers? I may have been getting it all wrong but I havent heard of a single in-service or course run by education centers in my area. Have you? There is the conference and the GDI day which happened on a Saturday in Cork this year id I remember correctly. Other than that it is self-funded, expensive Goethe Inst courses. I have done German courses at my own expense and the occasional French course run by the AF, again at my own expense. How could courses that you have to pay quite a bit for be compulsory? Some of your posts make some sense, but I wonder how much experience you actually have of the second level sector in Ireland. You don't appear to have a clear knowledge of the realities.

seavill

Gurgle wrote: »

Cool, your opinion is actually qualified

The second could be mitigated by a system where every teacher must sit the Junior Cert / Leaving Cert every year in every subject they teach. Anything less than an A and they are automatically blocked from teaching that subject.

.

I don't mean to sound rude so apologies if it does but, that is possibly the most Ridiculous thing I've read on this thread and there has been some interesting things up to now.
I was going to go into detail on this but I just can't see the point.

Again no offence meant by the above post

byhookorbycrook

I know that one of the highest performing students I ever taught found it harder to peer-tutor a younger child, as they just didn't understand how the younger child couldn't just read the word!A child who had to slog a little had a better understanding of the learning process. My point is that knowing the subject inside-out does not always mean you can pass it on to others.

Roadtrippin

Powerhouse wrote: »

1) As you say there may be several reasons. Could one of them be that you might not have exerted yourself or that you were simply not very good at the subject/languages? That happens. I have people in front of me who get the same teaching but fare quite differently in exams.

2) Not sure where you're getting this from but I have been on four teacher-training days in the past 18 months or so, as have all the pther language teachers in my school. You might need to be more sure of your ground on basic issues if you are in the business of educational research.

Thanks for bringing this up and giving me the opportunity to get back to you regarding these two points.

Re point 1) I agree. Nothing to add here.

Re point 2) I know people that give talks at these teacher training days and several of the main organisers from the GDI (Gesellschaft fuer Deutschlehrer in Irland = Society for German Teachers in Ireland).

And across the board there is a lack of attendance for the teacher training days they organise. A very small number (and teachers from your institutions may well be among that small number) shows up to these events, mainly because it's on the weekend and they don't want to spare a day of their precious weekend to go to these.
One of the people that presents regularly at these events has told me several times that they should start doing training days during the week since repeatedly they've had only very few teachers show up for them training days.

So, maybe in your case your school and your teachers are very dedicated but I can assure you (and I have a basis for this claim, trust me), that this is the exception rather than the rule.

Roadtrippin

vamos! wrote: »

You teach German at second level, right? What courses are on offer to German teachers? I may have been getting it all wrong but I havent heard of a single in-service or course run by education centers in my area. Have you? There is the conference and the GDI day which happened on a Saturday in Cork this year id I remember correctly. Other than that it is self-funded, expensive Goethe Inst courses. I have done German courses at my own expense and the occasional French course run by the AF, again at my own expense. How could courses that you have to pay quite a bit for be compulsory? Some of your posts make some sense, but I wonder how much experience you actually have of the second level sector in Ireland. You don't appear to have a clear knowledge of the realities.

The fact that you don't know about any further events regarding training makes my point.

And yes, I agree that these training days should not cost teachers a substantial amount or be free really, in order for people to attend. I can only talk about languages, which is what I teach at schools, but considering that the government in this country really doesn't give a f*** about languages other than Irish, I think it is needless to say they are not going to train German teachers for free.
There is not even money to keep on the MLPSI at primary school level which I also teach on, so why the hell should they fork out money to help language teachers attend training days.

Re my teaching experience etc. - I am a part-time teacher at schools and teach more hours at universities so needless to say I do not know about all the realities in secondary schools. I never claimed I did. However, you may not want to be so fast to dismiss my suggestions because I do research in this area (language pedagogy and practice) that has shown some serious lack of commitment on parts of the government re languages and implementing sustainable reform and policy change and on parts of some teachers re teacher training.

So you may not like what I have to say and will not want to listen - but I do know a thing or two about some aspects of the education system in Ireland, based on teaching experience and research.

Roadtrippin

seavill wrote: »

I don't mean to sound rude so apologies if it does but, that is possibly the most Ridiculous thing I've read on this thread and there has been some interesting things up to now.
I was going to go into detail on this but I just can't see the point.

Again no offence meant by the above post

Yeah, why bother explaining why you like dismissing everyone that has a different opinion than you do on here.

It's so much easier to keep saying that everything said on here is ridiculous :P

Gurgle

seavill wrote: »

I don't mean to sound rude so apologies if it does but, that is possibly the most Ridiculous thing I've read on this thread and there has been some interesting things up to now.

I know the image is amusing, but it's a practical and cheap way to get people out of classes where they shouldn't be in the first place.
Most teachers cover one or two subjects, that's only 4 exams per year.

seavill wrote: »

Again no offence meant by the above post

You'd have to try a lot harder than that to offend me

Powerhouse wrote:

incidentally people have no idea how easy these exams would be for teachers teaching the material year in year out!

As it should be, the vast majority of teachers will score 100% every single year. It would be nice to see the ones who can't dumped overboard, and I am 100% sure they are out there.

In theory teachers are qualified to teach particular subjects, in practice every school has holes in the staff and the principle has to get something with a pulse into the classroom.

sitstill

Gurgle wrote: »

the principle has to get something with a pulse into the classroom.

I think you mean principal?!

Gurgle

sitstill wrote: »

I think you mean principal?!

The principal is your pal

mirekb

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

But suppose we decide on a "you scratch my back" approach?Suppose that I know a child to be in need of support at x and the other teacher says it's really y s/he needs?Suppose that the standards in our school are higher/lower than another school?Suppose the principal is willing to to sign off on all of this-look at my school, all the teachers are reaching our goals?

Surely the fact that you see this as something that may happen proves that there are Principals and teachers who could benefit from some sort of review system.

I'm a big fan of fostering an open and communicative culture within a school - if the teachers, students and parents all feel as if they will be listened to and acknowledged then it would be easy for a Principal to get an over all idea of if a teacher is 'good' or not (based on student contentment, personalised targets etc..). An over all picture would prevent the one angry student/parent from having too great a say over a teacger's review, and would also take away academic results as the marker for success.

seavill

Roadtrippin wrote: »

Yeah, why bother explaining why you like dismissing everyone that has a different opinion than you do on here.

It's so much easier to keep saying that everything said on here is ridiculous :P

I have not dismissed everyone with a different opinion than mine on this forum. Please point out where I have.

I have posted several times in response to comments by partyatmygaff and possibly you I cannot remember now without going back, but most have not been responded to at all.

I have clearly explained my point of view. I have agreed with most of what partyatmygaff has said numerous times except for the part about student surveys being the sole reason for an inspector being called in. I have clearly explained why I have disagreed with this in detail several times.

I am not the only one who posted and found this to not be a logical suggestion.
The poster themselves was not bothered by this but you seem to have reason to post an irrelevant pointless comment.

I did not comment fully on this one as I felt by going into the long details it may sidetrack the thread from the real issues.

Seen as you feel so aggrieved by what I posted I shall explain just for you. Hopefully you will actually have a meaningful reply to it this time.
Also if you would like to point out where on previous pages I have not posted long (probably too long) responses and explanations I would be more than happy to apologise to you.

Anyone can learn off answers to do well in our exam system, teacher or student. This is the whole problem with the way our education system is set up.
More to the point a teacher who has even had an exam class for one year in a subject will definitely know how to answer the exam questions even if they know nothing about the subject past this basic knowledge.
Any teacher will tell you this.
With our system the same type questions come up over and over there is a very finite amount of information that is actually needed for most exams the way the system is now.

As I mentioned even teaching an exam class for one year, a terrible teacher will be able to get 100% in any exam especially if they know they are going to be tested on it.

As most people have been saying on this forum, it is the ones who just cannot teach are the problems. The ones who have no way with children, or have no interest in producing materials in such a way as to make it fun and interesting for the kids.
These are the things that make a good teacher more than whether or not they can learn off a few answers from the book.

Only some form of inspection can judge this, including regular RANDOM, UNANNOUNCED inspections. This is the way forward, not trying to keep students sweet or being able to learn off exam answers.

Hopefully Roadtrippin that explains it enough for you. As you can see an explanation that is kind of off topic for the title of the thread hence why I didn't feel the need to post the first time.