Sir Patrick Moore attacks Germany he still HATES it after 70 years

Dudess

sheesh wrote: »

I think he is entitled to feel that way.

He is entitled to blame millions for something they didn't do/weren't even alive for, nonsensical and all as that is, and others are entitled to express the view that it's ****ing stupid and ignorant and bigoted.

Cavehill Red

Dudess wrote: »

If a person goes to prison for storming into a synagogue yelling nazi slogans, imprison the ****er IMO. Choose a more appropriate audience/environment at least.

If a person goes into a synagogue yelling anything, they are already guilty of breach of the peace. There is no need to legislate for what they say or think.

Dudess wrote: »

"What about free speech?", "Political correctness gone mad!" and "That's censorship!" are lines used by people who are just pissed off that they can't bully. Doubt they'd give a **** about the free speech etc of the groups they enjoy hating.

Now you're the one being prescriptive and limiting. I'm a strict Voltairean about this. I'd defend anyone's right to say anything, so long as it comes with a concomitant right for others to debate and rebut it.

Cavehill Red

St.Spodo wrote: »

My bad about the spelling. I completely disagree on the third point, I am not arguing about the dangers of inciting hatred and dehumanising people again. History argues that point for me very well.

No, see here's what PC has done for you. It has prevented you from actually debating me. It is insufficient for you to simply appeal to history without citing examples to support what you are saying.

It frankly doesn't matter to me (nor should it to you or anyone else) if someone hates you. It should only matter to you if they seek to act upon that hatred in a manner designed to cause you harm. And as I've said, we've got plenty of laws against that already.

Dudess

But would you defend someone's free speech right to say that they think unlimited free speech is open to abuse?

Dostoevsky

bwatson wrote: »

I think you actually are reinforcing my point with this dictionary defenition, notably the bolded parts. British society was scarred immeasurably and without exception Britain's most important centres of economics, industry and culture were flattened beyond recognition.

Ah, trying to change the argument still. The original poster stated Moore ""saw his country bombed into oblivion". Now, it seems you want to narrow it down to a part of the country (and you're obviously incorrect there with your "without exception" claim, which is ridiculous). Not cool.

PS: Most of British society was not "scarred immeasurably" because of the Nazi air invasion. Without giving perspective and mentioning the 20 million plus Russian deaths because of the Nazi invasion there, saying the 40,000-60,000 British deaths from the Nazi air invasion out of a population of 50-60 million constitutes bombing British society per se to oblivion is plainly silly.

Born to Die

I'll just leave this here.

*Quoted from article.

He admitted there ‘can be good, free, honourable, decent Germans’ only to add: ‘I haven’t met them myself, but I’m sure they exist.’

I think his views are deeply rooted in the past and have not been tempered by the passing of time but definitely aimed at the Germans of the war time.

Cavehill Red

Dudess wrote: »

But would you defend someone's free speech right to say that they think unlimited free speech is open to abuse?

Of course I would. Feel free to say it anytime you wish with my support.

St.Spodo

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No, see here's what PC has done for you. It has prevented you from actually debating me. It is insufficient for you to simply appeal to history without citing examples to support what you are saying.

It frankly doesn't matter to me (nor should it to you or anyone else) if someone hates you. It should only matter to you if they seek to act upon that hatred in a manner designed to cause you harm. And as I've said, we've got plenty of laws against that already.

As I've said already: hate speech was a political tool to inspire hatred in the Hutu people of Rwanda to commit atrocities against the Tutsi people.

The Nazi films such as Jud Suss and The Eternal Jew were released not long before the systematic slaughter of Europe's Jews began.

Make no mistake about it; propagandistic hate-speech is a very powerful tool to sculpt and mould public opinion. If everyday you tell a 15 year old that the Jew is a corrupter, poisonous, parasitic, he will believe it. Most young people in this situation would be naturally inclined to treat Jews (or whoever) as less than human.

stoneill

He is absolutely entitled to hate after 70 years.
It may be history to us - but what happened during the second world war directly affected him as a person. Just because time has passed, it does not diminish the hurt, pain and anger.
Anyone who has lost a loved one knows this.

There are still people alive today who are deeply affected by the trauma of living through WW2. Only very recently the last surviving british soldier from WW1 Harry Patch died. He was affected right up to his death.

You may not agree with Patrick Moore, you may even think it is irrational, however you do not have a frame of reference to make a decision on his right to hate.

opinion guy

Andy Carroll wrote: »

He's an old fool who needs to shut up and get someone to buy longer trousers for him, what is left to debate.

Longer trousers ? They'd be up to his neck!!! :eek:

bwatson

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Ah, trying to change the argument still. The original poster stated Moore ""saw his country bombed into oblivion". Now, it seems you want to narrow it down to a part of the country (and you're obviously incorrect there with your "without exception" claim, which is ridiculous). Not cool.

PS: Most of British society was not "scarred immeasurably" because of the Nazi air invasion. Without giving perspective and mentioning the 20 million plus Russian deaths because of the Nazi invasion there, saying the 40,000-60,000 British deaths from the Nazi air invasion out of a population of 50-60 million constitutes bombing British society per se to oblivion is plainly silly.

I havent changed the argument at all. The decimation of London, Birmingham, Cardiff, Manchester, Glasgow, Liverpool, Belfast, Southampton, Coventry and so on, and so on, and so on... left Britain as a country and a society unrecognizable following the conclusion of the war. The mentality of its people and the physical appearance were lost and never recovered.

Why are you continuing to bring up Russia?

Cavehill Red

St.Spodo wrote: »

As I've said already: hate speech was a political tool to inspire hatred in the Hutu people of Rwanda to commit atrocities against the Tutsi people.

The Nazi films such as Jud Suss and The Eternal Jew were released not long before the systematic slaughter of Europe's Jews began.

Make no mistake about it; propagandistic hate-speech is a very powerful tool to sculpt and mould public opinion. If everyday you tell a 15 year old that the Jew is a corrupter, poisonous, parasitic, he will believe it. Most young people in this situation would be naturally inclined to treat Jews (or whoever) as less than human.

ALL speech is a powerful tool to mould and shape public opinion. The problem is when the state legislates for what is permittable to be spoken and what is not, and threatens jail for speaking in certain manners.
No words killed a single Hutu, Tutsi, Jew, Roma, homosexual, or anyone else, ever. In Rwanda, the interahamwe was conducted by militias armed with machetes, and in the Nazi state, Jews already faced legal dehumanisation in law. It was not words that stripped them of their property and rights, nor shoved them into ovens. It was people.
The laws we ought to have should protect the integrity of the physical person. Those laws did not exist in Nazi Germany, and the law was insufficiently policed by a sectarian authority in Rwanda.
What you describe are failures to protect the integrity of the physical human. It is not an argument in favour of telling people what to think or say under threat of criminal offence. That too is fascism.

Dudess

stoneill wrote: »

He is absolutely entitled to hate after 70 years.
It may be history to us - but what happened during the second world war directly affected him as a person. Just because time has passed, it does not diminish the hurt, pain and anger.
Anyone who has lost a loved one knows this.

There are still people alive today who are deeply affected by the trauma of living through WW2. Only very recently the last surviving british soldier from WW1 Harry Patch died. He was affected right up to his death.

You may not agree with Patrick Moore, you may even think it is irrational, however you do not have a frame of reference to make a decision on his right to hate.

Hate the people who did what they did? Of course - and fair play to him. That's not the issue here though.

Crann na Beatha

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bwatson

Aquila wrote: »

Decimation?
Have you heard of Koenigsberg?Stalingrad,Leningrad?

Once again, the reference to Russia. What is with it? What is the relevance?

Paparazzo

Strange when you think about it. I know a a German guy that lives right beside the Dutch border. Moore would be happy to see him dead. If he lived one mile to the south west, Moore has no problem with him.
Look at this link: http://g.co/maps/23ush
If you lived in the house on the left, he wants you dead, but the guy up the road in the next house is grand.


Before anyone says it, yes, I know you're familiar with borders, but just seems really weird to think that living on the wrong side of an imaginary line can mean so much.

Crann na Beatha

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Capt'n Midnight

Aquila wrote: »

Over 20 million dead

Aren't we all forgetting about the Chinese deaths ?

Dudess

Born to Die wrote: »

I'll just leave this here.

*Quoted from article.

He admitted there ‘can be good, free, honourable, decent Germans’ only to add: ‘I haven’t met them myself, but I’m sure they exist.’

Probably has met them but pretends he hasn't. He should try for Wimbledon with that back-hand. :pac:

Crann na Beatha

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Dudess

It's not a competition ffs - numerous peoples suffered, some worse than others on the whole, but there were millions upon millions of individual tragedies that get overshadowed by all the group stats.

blatantrereg

silly old fart.

The French betrayed us

wtf? The British (and French) betrayal of the Polish was far greater.
Only a token force was sent to assist when Poland were invaded. Five times as many Polish killed as British and French combined. Ongoing Polish resistance and no surrender during the whole of the war. Ongoing failed promises of support from the west. Then abandoned and given to the USSR at the end. They were utterly shafted.

The anti-German stuff is too ridiculous to consider, but my brain boggled a bit at the sheer hypocrisy of that one.

steddyeddy

Aquila wrote: »

No,i had a project about unit 731 and the Japanese atrocities against Chinese civilians years ago
Although we are slightly going off the topic mentioning Russian casualties etc

After unit 731 Im really surprised china wants anything to do with Japan. I know it happened a long time ago but some of those in unit 731 were working in the Japanese health sector after the war :eek:

Capt'n Midnight

steddyeddy wrote: »

After unit 731 Im really surprised china wants anything to do with Japan. I know it happened a long time ago but some of those in unit 731 were working in the Japanese health sector after the war :eek:

weren't some later working for the Americans too ?

what was worse was the general treatment of civilians by all sections of the army, cannibalism was not uncommon

Grayditch

I think he was just talking about Wolfenstien 3D, lads.

Crann na Beatha

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Wibbs

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No, because they amount to the same thing. The state has effectively defined an historical event and its facts, meaning that any attempt to query the facts as defined by the state is a criminal offence. Apart from being blisteringly anti-intellectual, this also fosters the very beliefs the law was intended to suppress.

I'd somewhat agree with this alright.

Dudess wrote: »

There were German people who were brave enough to stand up to the regime - I know I wouldn't have had such courage because I'm not deluded - and suffered greatly when caught. Germans died at the hands of the nazis too you know.

Yes they did. They shot, hanged and guillotined thousands of such people. Even so a surprisingly small number. Of course after the war the number of anti Nazis was very high. Funny that, though just as funny as every Frenchman/woman was in the resistance and every Irish person had a relative in the GPO... Bravery tends to swell after the fact, depending on which way the tide runs. Resistance groups are damn near always tiny. The vast majority of people just go along with the tide to one degree or other. People are usually too busy trying to get into, or keep their position in the boat to rock it.

TBH one could see why the the German people would go along more than most such examples. People forget that the same Hitler made a big difference in ordinary German lives. The difference between the Germany he took over and the Germany of a remarkably few years later was big. He turned the country around, gave them jobs, a better health service and gave them their pride back. Or at least it appeared that way(economically they had little choice but war and he well knew it). Compare him to another tool like Stalin whose people suffered massively. Herr Hitler looked like and was(for a time) a damn good bet for most Germans. Hell Time magazine even made him man of the year(In 1936 IIRC).

haminka

I think it would be a big mistake to only blame Germans for both world wars. Let's not forget - Germany didn't instigate the WW1, it was a pretty much mutual effort from all sides, none of the big powers was there by a chance.
The reasons for why Hitler came to power and was so popular are many - bitterness after the WW1, poverty, crisis, search for a way out. As for antisemitism - let's not forget that Germans were not there all alone, hate campaings against Jews have always been rampant across the history of modern Europe.
This is not an excuse, just trying to look at all sides of the story. Britain and US were all ready to shake hands with Hitler if he only were any friendlier towards them and the Russians were almost best friends with him /at least they thought so till he invaded them/.
My grandfather and my great-grandfather both fought Germans in the WW2 - I married one. I believe after the atrocities and cruelty that accompanied the WW2 and the suffering of people it is quite understandable that some people from the older generation will always feel bitter and will never forgive Germans /or Japanese in Asia/. It should be different with the younger generation and they should always be aware that it wasn't as black and white as they might believe. The list of war criminals still alive is more multinational than European Union. Not all French were in the Resistance just like not all Germans were actively supporting the Nazis. Russians were not all brave heroes - almost every woman in territories which they took over and not only in Germany was raped by Russian soldiers, including women in maternity hospitals, girls as young as 10. SS units were full of volunteers from different countries and even races. Domestic Nazis in countries like Croatia, Romania, Hungaria, Slovakia etc. committed atrocities even the hardened soldiers from Wehrmacht were struggling to cope with.
It is my firm belief that wars and conflicts will exist as long as we will be looking at others as "a collective" and not recognize that there are people with their individual lives and fates everywhere, with everyday problems and worries surprisingly similar to ours. That many times the truth is very subjectively on the side of the victor and that the defeated side doesn't only consist from the criminals and followers but that the worst hit are common people like us who just happened to be at the wrong place in the wrong time.

Davidth88

Can you really blame Patrick Moore ?

Both my parents ( both now dead ) lived through the Second World War , my father in particular was very anti German . His line ( rather like the German Officer quoted by Patrick Moore ) was ' We may have won the war , but the Germans sure as hell won the peace '.

You only have to scrape the surface in the England to find deep seated anti German feeling , and indeed anti French. Look at the jokes regarding sun beds at holiday resorts , or even Harry Enfield in recent times.

If you look at recent history ( the last 3-4 years ) , have the German politicians actually done anything to change people's view of the German race ? They give every impression of bullying the rest of Europe having lent money to them at very low rates ( the rates were only low because it suited the Germans )

St.Spodo

Cavehill Red wrote: »

ALL speech is a powerful tool to mould and shape public opinion. The problem is when the state legislates for what is permittable to be spoken and what is not, and threatens jail for speaking in certain manners.
No words killed a single Hutu, Tutsi, Jew, Roma, homosexual, or anyone else, ever. In Rwanda, the interahamwe was conducted by militias armed with machetes, and in the Nazi state, Jews already faced legal dehumanisation in law. It was not words that stripped them of their property and rights, nor shoved them into ovens. It was people.
The laws we ought to have should protect the integrity of the physical person. Those laws did not exist in Nazi Germany, and the law was insufficiently policed by a sectarian authority in Rwanda.
What you describe are failures to protect the integrity of the physical human. It is not an argument in favour of telling people what to think or say under threat of criminal offence. That too is fascism.

Language, that is to say propaganda, when insidious and ubiquitous, can have the effect of establishing enemies and hatred. When attempting to understand why the Holocaust happened, I think it would be wrong to discount the role of anti-Semitic hate speech. You are quite right to say that it was people who shot and gassed 6 million Jews. Normal people. What I'd argue is that if you are constantly told the Jew is sub-human, evil, or whatever, you will inevitably be inclined to treat them in an inhumane manner or at least apply a different standard to them. This is how hate speech can disseminate dangerous ideas.

Show Time

Davidth88 wrote: »

Can you really blame Patrick Moore ?

Both my parents ( both now dead ) lived through the Second World War , my father in particular was very anti German . His line ( rather like the German Officer quoted by Patrick Moore ) was ' We may have won the war , but the Germans sure as hell won the peace '.

You only have to scrape the surface in the England to find deep seated anti German feeling , and indeed anti French. Look at the jokes regarding sun beds at holiday resorts , or even Harry Enfield in recent times.

If you look at recent history ( the last 3-4 years ) , have the German politicians actually done anything to change people's view of the German race ? They give every impression of bullying the rest of Europe having lent money to them at very low rates ( the rates were only low because it suited the Germans )

The reunification of Germany was handle all wrong. It would have made a lot more sense for the rest of Europe to keep the German state in a position where the horse and cart is the main form of transport and the cow as the highest form of barter.

Two attempts at force of arms failed to conquer Europe but thanks to the EU we are now well into the Fourth German Reich.

Capt'n Midnight

Wibbs wrote: »

Herr Hitler looked like and was(for a time) a damn good bet for most Germans. Hell Time magazine even made him man of the year(In 1936 IIRC).

That was for being the person who changed things most, not an endorsement.

foxyboxer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVESMxs4rbA

Dudess

Davidth88 wrote: »

Can you really blame Patrick Moore ?

Both my parents ( both now dead ) lived through the Second World War , my father in particular was very anti German . His line ( rather like the German Officer quoted by Patrick Moore ) was ' We may have won the war , but the Germans sure as hell won the peace '.

You only have to scrape the surface in the England to find deep seated anti German feeling , and indeed anti French. Look at the jokes regarding sun beds at holiday resorts , or even Harry Enfield in recent times.

If you look at recent history ( the last 3-4 years ) , have the German politicians actually done anything to change people's view of the German race ? They give every impression of bullying the rest of Europe having lent money to them at very low rates ( the rates were only low because it suited the Germans )

You're talking about the government, not ordinary people.

prinz

Gnobe wrote: »

And that would be equally wrong.

Like I say no one should ever judge anyone by nationality.

Don't misunderstand me, I know it would be equally as wrong and as stupid, but he strikes me as exactly the type to get upset and offended if anyone made similar remarks about his home.

prinz

Wibbs wrote: »

TBH one could see why the the German people would go along more than most such examples. People forget that the same Hitler made a big difference in ordinary German lives. The difference between the Germany he took over and the Germany of a remarkably few years later was big. He turned the country around, gave them jobs, a better health service and gave them their pride back..

Not to mention the fact that there are a few Irish politicians around promising the same sort of populist nonsense and their support is growing. People never learn.

haminka

This is one of the best movies ever made about the attitude to Jews :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myzcs1e52KA

The Shop on Main Street got an Oscar and an Oscar nomination in 1965. If you forward to the 1.56, there is a great scene about the Jews being transported to concentration camps with the official propaganda telling the Jews that they will be brought to work in the East. It was at the time when they lost all possessions and civil rights and forced to live in isolation. One of the reasons why this movie makes such an impact is that it actually never really shows concentration camps or war itself, it's only the audience that really knows what's going on.

foxyboxer

prinz wrote: »

Not to mention the fact that there are a few Irish politicians around promising the same sort of populist nonsense and their support is growing. People never learn.

True.

I know it's a bad analogy but consider the financial situation we are in at the moment. This can be attributed to a bank guarantee in September 2008. A decision that the ordinary joe soap on the street had no input. Now do you think the german man on the street agreed with or had any input to the decision to invade Poland? Sure he had a job or a trade and could provide for his family, but now he will probably be conscripted to fight against the British and French.

Cookie_Monster

Ha, fair play to the guy for stating what he believes even if it isn't PC enough for the modern world.

Sure its racist and a bit unfair to blame all Germans for it but hey, he's stuck to his convictions for 70 years.

Chuck Stone

I would hope that I'd have the fortitude to let go of such bitterness.

prinz

foxyboxer wrote: »

Now do you think the german man on the street agreed with or had any input to the decision to invade Poland?

The ordinary man on the street probably didn't have a clue what was actually going on.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident If you're living hundreds of miles away and the only media you get is telling you what they want you to hear, it would be easy to get the wrong idea.

sheesh

Dudess wrote: »

He is entitled to blame millions for something they didn't do/weren't even alive for, nonsensical and all as that is, and others are entitled to express the view that it's ****ing stupid and ignorant and bigoted.

I didn't say he was right but given his experiences it is understandable. Even if it is stupid ignorant and bigotted.

Although I suppose you are right, he should just get over it! Even if it was his wife It was 60 years ago.

hooradiation

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Feel free to debate me on it, then. Or would you rather have me carted off for re-education?

Debate what exactly? Your belief that somehow not being a complete asshole to people is the result of some kind of fascism or maybe the whole twisted concept that all this is just to stop some "name calling" which at the same time is trivialising the kind of vile shit that is hurled at people who don't have the same kind of privilege as you and, amazingly, tries to paint you as the victim here.

Oh and lets not linger on your shitty little attempt at a dig with that "re-education" nonsense, you've embarrassed yourself enough so far.

In short, your opinions are bad and you should feel bad.

Wibbs

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

That was for being the person who changed things most, not an endorsement.

Maybe, maybe not. He was pretty popular in the US at that stage.

LordSutch

RichieC wrote: »

It's as bad as those american muppets that were cheering the tidal wave on Japan because of pearl harbour.

I find that shocking, if true. The Japanese (and their mindset) who attacked Pearl Harbour are long gone, as are the Nazi's.

haminka

LordSutch wrote: »

I find that shocking, if true. The Japanese (and their mindset) who attacked Pearl Harbour are long gone, as are the Nazi's.

I even read opinions of some truly mentally challenged muppets who actually blamed Japanese bad karma from WW2 for the earthquake and tsunami. The moronism was mind-blowing.

Delancey

While Patrick Moores attitudes are disappointing we must remember that he served in the War and saw what it was all about.
I don't think we can judge him - we weren't there.

haminka

Delancey wrote: »

While Patrick Moores attitudes are disappointing we must remember that he served in the War and saw what it was all about.
I don't think we can judge him - we weren't there.

I think that's completely understandable. He is an old man who has seen pretty ugly things and who had ugly things happen to him during the war, who are we to judge him?
I think the only reason why it came up is the new anti-German propaganda anyway /which I find rather funny considering the fact that Ireland was in fact a silent supporter of Germany during the war and the Irish veterans who fought against Nazi Germany haven't been officially recognized as war heroes yet AFAIK/ but hey, the referendum is coming, keep it up.

johnwest288

meow, saucer of milk for him !

steddyeddy

LordSutch wrote: »

I find that shocking, if true. The Japanese (and their mindset) who attacked Pearl Harbour are long gone, as are the Nazi's.

Well heres the facebook response to pearl harbour!