Is this abuse of the Irish Passport?

woodoo

How do you feel about people from Northern Ireland who do not identify as Irish using our Passport just to get free fees in Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17900220

I'm a little uncomfortable with it. If they wanted an Irish passport because they are happy to identify as Irish than fine. But not if its just a ticket to free fees.

Jesus Wept

I couldn't give a bollox. You can't legislate on nationalism.

MagicRon

woodoo wrote: »

How do you feel about people from Northern Ireland who do not identify as Irish using our Passport just to get free fees in Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17900220

I'm a little uncomfortable with it. If they wanted an Irish passport because they are happy to identify as Irish than fine. But not if its just a ticket to free fees.

Fair play to them, smart thinkers!

Owen_S

BRB moving to Scotland.

LizT

A lot of people in the north have both British and Irish passports.

Don't really see the big deal, if it removes a barrier to education then that's only a good thing.

woodoo

They could be at a 12th bonfire cheering on the burning of the Irish flag one day and then off to University in Glasgow with an Irish passport the next to get free fees.

They should have to have the passport for years before hand.

im invisible

my father is entitled to a british passport, as he was born in ireland before nineteen-dikity-four

bwatson

Not really an issue, people obtain passports (of all nations) for pragmatism all the time.

What is highlighted however is another clear example of the Scottish government's Anti-England (and in turn rest of the UK) bigotry.

Cavehill Red

Most of the NI students who go to Scottish universities are from the Protestant community. I am delighted to see that they are realising what benefits can be obtained from embracing their Irish nationality wholeheartedly, and hope to see more of this in future.

Born to Die

Just you wait until they get a load of Israelis on Irish passports.

AnonoBoy

Ran out of toilet paper while on holidays once.

Ended up wiping my arse with my passport.

Now THAT'S abuse of it.

steddyeddy

It doesnt bother me in the slightest but Ill be interested to see how cognitive dissonance some of them use to claim northern ireland is totally seperate from Ireland.

kowloon

Couldn't care less, but it would be funny to make swearing loyalty to the Irish constitution on camera a condition just to wind them up.

golden lane

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Most of the NI students who go to Scottish universities are from the Protestant community. I am delighted to see that they are realising what benefits can be obtained from embracing their Irish nationality wholeheartedly, and hope to see more of this in future.

there are a lot of protestants in ni..who are proud to be irish......

Cavehill Red

golden lane wrote: »

there are a lot of protestants in ni..who are proud to be irish......

Indeed, Ian Paisley among them. But as a people they remain largely divorced by the border and history of partition from their Irish heritage and roots, which they have erroneously associated with their Catholic neighbours only. If accepting a passport makes them think about their being Irish a bit more, I'm extremely in favour.

GTE

It is a loophole that in every one of us would jump on if we needed to. The UK system of fees is getting crazy and if a human being wants to further their education and can save up to 9 grand sterling by doing so, let them have it.

They are in a special situation regarding the double passport here but there are a hell of a lot other people eligible for EU passports who can avail of this loophole so let them do it.

The thought of people having problems with this on any other level than the fact that the UK fees system is pricing students out of the market damn near disgusts me.

golden lane

bbk wrote: »

It is a loophole that in every one of us would jump on if we needed to. The UK system of fees is getting crazy and if a human being wants to further their education and can save up to 9 grand sterling by doing so, let them have it.

They are in a special situation regarding the double passport here but there are a hell of a lot other people eligible for EU passports who can avail of this loophole so let them do it.

The thought of people having problems with this on any other level than the fact that the UK fees system is pricing students out of the market damn near disgusts me.

those fees don't have to be paid up front......and are only paid back when the student reaches a certain level of earnings......

the drop out rate, when students paid no fees,,,was nearly fifty percent......disgracefull really...also nine thousand is the higher end..

IrishAm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Most of the NI students who go to Scottish universities are from the Protestant community. I am delighted to see that they are realising what benefits can be obtained from embracing their Irish nationality wholeheartedly, and hope to see more of this in future.

Bollix. They will be back in their hovels on the 12th, celebrating bonfires laden with Irish flags with KAT written on them. Hell, once they graduate, they will probably lob them into the bonfire.

Embrace their Irishness me hole. They are obtaining an Irish passport for their own financial gain.

GTE

golden lane wrote: »

those fees don't have to be paid up front......and are only paid back when the student reaches a certain level of earnings......

the drop out rate, when students paid no fees,,,was nearly fifty percent......disgracefull really...also nine thousand is the higher end..

I know, understand and have to experience all of what you said in one way or another and considered that while making my post.

golden lane

golden lane wrote: »

those fees don't have to be paid up front......and are only paid back when the student reaches a certain level of earnings......

the drop out rate, when students paid no fees,,,was nearly fifty percent......disgracefull really...also nine thousand is the higher end..

last year...there was jobs in the uk, for 38 thousand engineering graduates....

only 22 thousand english students graduated....leaving a shortfall of 16 thousand...to be filled by immigration..

IrishAm

bbk wrote: »

damn near disgusts me.

Disgust yourself away.

Live amongst these people for a year or ten and come back to me.:rolleyes:

Cavehill Red

IrishAm wrote: »

Bollix. They will be back in their hovels on the 12th, celebrating bonfires laden with Irish flags with KAT written on them. Hell, once they graduate, they will probably lob them into the bonfire.

Embrace their Irishness me hole. They are obtaining an Irish passport for their own financial gain.

I am saddened by your bigotry towards your fellow Irishmen. It seems you would prefer to discriminate against your Irish brethren trapped on the wrong side of partition by insisting that they should not be entitled to the citizenship rights enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement by a referendum supported throughout our island.
You should be ashamed of your partitionist mindset.

GTE

IrishAm wrote: »

Disgust yourself away.

Live amongst these people for a year or ten and come back to me.:rolleyes:

How does 2 years sound? What am I saying! I am sure you will push for the 10 year option given I said this. Should have said 10 and seen what you would have done. hehehehehe ":rolleyes:"

I feel better knowing that you are among a minority giving about a minority.

Dudess

bwatson wrote: »

What is highlighted however is another clear example of the Scottish government's Anti-England (and in turn rest of the UK) bigotry.

How?

bwatson

IrishAm wrote: »

Disgust yourself away.

Live amongst these people for a year or ten and come back to me.:rolleyes:

Who?

British university students?

IrishAm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I am saddened by your bigotry towards your fellow Irishmen. It seems you would prefer to discriminate against your Irish brethren trapped on the wrong side of partition by insisting that they should not be entitled to the citizenship rights enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement by a referendum supported throughout our island.
You should be ashamed of your partitionist mindset.

Bigotry? Bigotry? Get a grip.

You have no clue what the loyalists/unionists put my family through.

I am a Dub. Me ma got a promotion and because me da was a hard worker, but useless, she had to accept it. Me and her went to Belfast whilst me da and my siblings stayed at home, in Dublin.

I know the hun. I was tortured by them for two years.

When they start behaving like my fellow Irish men, I will treat them as such.

hondasam

woodoo wrote: »

I'm a little uncomfortable with it. If they wanted an Irish passport because they are happy to identify as Irish than fine. But not if its just a ticket to free fees.

Financial gain will usually win over principles.

GTE

Dudess wrote: »

How?

Indeed, I was under the impression it was an EU requirement for EU member states not to charge EU students the full fees on grounds of discrimination. It is in the BBC article posted anyway.

What has happened is that the countries that make up the UK are not bound by this when accepting other UK students into their educational institutions because they are a UK student before they are an EU student when they are being educated in their home country.

This is the same as me being considered an Irish student to the Irish educational grant system but EU to anywhere else in the EU.

Cavehill Red

IrishAm wrote: »

Bigotry? Bigotry? Get a grip.
You have no clue what the loyalists/unionists put my family through.
I am a Dub. Me ma got a promotion and because me da was a hard worker, but useless, she had to accept it. Me and her went to Belfast whilst me da and my siblings stayed at home, in Dublin.
I know the hun. I was tortured by them for two years.
When they start behaving like my fellow Irish men, I will treat them as such.

You lived in the Nationalist-Republican enclave of West Belfast for 2 years and you're crying to me? I lived in North Belfast for decades and still have a house there, mate. I've been through more than you could possibly imagine, living through the entirety of the troubles on a murder mile.
Despite that, I have no problem with my Irish Protestant neighbours, am no bigot, and consider it a fantastic development that more and more are accepting Irish nationality and seeing real tangible benefits from it.
I find your post a classic example of MOPEry.

golden lane

bbk wrote: »

Indeed, I was under the impression it was an EU requirement for EU member states not to charge EU students the full fees on grounds of discrimination. It is in the BBC article posted anyway.

What has happened is that the countries that make up the UK are not bound by this when accepting other UK students into their educational institutions because they are a UK student before they are an EU student when they are being educated in their home country.

This is the same as me being considered an Irish student to the Irish educational grant system but EU to anywhere else in the EU.

the uk makes it's on decisions....is there anything wrong with that.....

i think it is one of the best ideas i have heard in years........wasting money on wastefull students...that is madness...

GTE

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Boo-hoo. You lived in the Nationalist-Republican enclave of West Belfast for 2 years and you're crying to me? I lived in North Belfast for decades and still have a house there, mate. I've been through more than you could possibly imagine, living through the entirety of the troubles on a murder mile.
Despite that, I have no problem with my Irish Protestant neighbours, am no bigot, and consider it a fantastic development that more and more are accepting Irish nationality and seeing real tangible benefits from it.
I find your post a classic example of MOPEry.

And with the greatest respect to the post you have linked to, I am spending my third year in Belfast and the most trouble I have had on the island of Ireland was in County Kildare for walking down the main street minding my own business.

That doesn't mean that everyone in County Kildare are out to beat people up for walkin on their streets now does it? (not directed at the quoted poster btw.)

IrishAm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Boo-hoo. You lived in the Nationalist-Republican enclave of West Belfast for 2 years and you're crying to me? I lived in North Belfast for decades and still have a house there, mate. I've been through more than you could possibly imagine, living through the entirety of the troubles on a murder mile.
Despite that, I have no problem with my Irish Protestant neighbours, am no bigot, and consider it a fantastic development that more and more are accepting Irish nationality and seeing real tangible benefits from it.
I find your post a classic example of MOPEry.

No clue what my family went through, as I said.

I think I should step off, I am too involved in this discussion.

I have my reasons. And I will be visiting one of them this weekend. In the bone yard.

Cavehill Red

bbk wrote: »

And with the greatest respect to the post you have linked to, I am spending my third year in Belfast and the most trouble I have had on the island of Ireland was in County Kildare for walking down the main street minding my own business.

That doesn't mean that everyone in County Kildare are out to beat people up for walkin on their streets now does it?

I think we're in agreement. Irish Am was upset because he was unhappy for a couple of years while he lived in the area of Belfast with the least actual number of Protestants, and presumably all his trauma occurred not in the near or recent past either, yet he's still a bigot. My point was that plenty of us saw an awful lot worse and yet don't seek to discriminate against young people from NI who are simply trying to get on in the world without back-breaking debt, simply because they might be Protestant. In fact, we welcome it because anything that reintroduces them to their Irish nationality and heritage is, to my mind, to be encouraged.

GTE

IrishAm wrote: »

No clue what my family went through, as I said.

I think I should step off, I am too involved in this discussion.

I have my reasons. And I will be visiting one of them this weekend. In the bone yard.

Yes that is best. We can never understand what you went through and I certainly will never insult anyone by saying I do, however you must realise how you come off with your comments as to the a majority of people I know, they come off as very general. Too general for my experiences up here.

Cavehill Red

IrishAm wrote: »

No clue what my family went through, as I said.
I think I should step off, I am too involved in this discussion.
I have my reasons. And I will be visiting one of them this weekend. In the bone yard.

And you've little clue what others have been through either. This is the problem with making emotional appeals. Sometimes you get, pardon the pun, outgunned.
I could take you around entire plots of cemeteries. I don't think any of that is positive or necessary.
My best suggestion to you is to remember that the past is the past, and that 17 and 18 year olds coming out of Methody or BRA looking to go to Strathclyde or Heriot Watt didn't kill anyone.

steddyeddy

bbk wrote: »

Yes that is best. We can never understand what you went through and I certainly will never insult anyone by saying I do, however you must realise how you come off with your comments as to the a majority of people I know, they come off as very general. Too general for my experiences up here.

I have to say I agree with the generality of most people's comments. The south knew nothing of what happened to many in the north.

GTE

Pity I want to study in England next. This does raise more questions about their exact policy on EU students. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

EDIT:

steddyeddy wrote: »

I have to say I agree with the generality of most people's comments. The south knew nothing of what happened to many in the north.

Absolutely, however it must be said I am talking from a more recent standpoint as I am a student with no direct links to the very bad times, of which I know little of as you say and which I can admit.

The recent point I made is why I do not accept the generalisations you speak of as I am talking about people of my own age bracket and actually, people of a relatively older one too. This should be made clear I think, we all could very well speaking of experience with completely different generations and I feel no generation should be tarnished by the acts of their predecessors, let them tarnish them selves.

golden lane

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Indeed, Ian Paisley among them. But as a people they remain largely divorced by the border and history of partition from their Irish heritage and roots, which they have erroneously associated with their Catholic neighbours only. If accepting a passport makes them think about their being Irish a bit more, I'm extremely in favour.

agreed...i worked in belfast for quite a bit of the 1980's.....i stayed in east belfast, although i am a dublin..(catholic by birth)..i made some great friends there....

my last job there was...repairing the blown up escalators in castle court shopping centre....

stoneill

It's not an abuse of the Irish passport - they are entitled to it.
It does seem to be an abuse of the college fee system in Scotland.

IrishAm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

And you've little clue what others have been through either. This is the problem with making emotional appeals. Sometimes you get, pardon the pun, outgunned.
I could take you around entire plots of cemeteries. I don't think any of that is positive or necessary.
My best suggestion to you is to remember that the past is the past, and that 17 and 18 year olds coming out of Methody or BRA looking to go to Strathclyde or Heriot Watt didn't kill anyone.

Oh, sorry Cave. I didnt realise you were from the six. Apologies.

I will PM you, if I may.............

IrishAm

golden lane wrote: »

agreed...i worked in belfast for quite a bit of the 1980's.....i stayed in east belfast, although i am a dublin..(catholic by birth)..i made some great friends there....

my last job there was...repairing the blown up escalators in castle court shopping centre....

I think its wise if you name the shopping centre and give the reason why the Provos targeted it.

Cavehill Red

IrishAm wrote: »

Oh, sorry Cave. I didnt realise you were from the six. Apologies.

I will PM you, if I may.............

Please do, mate. I don't like to see anyone hurting.

golden lane

IrishAm wrote: »

I think its wise if you name the shopping centre and give the reason why the Provos targeted it.

castle court as i am aware.....but somebody mentioned it was something else......my interest was to get my task done....and go home....

there was some other incidents while i was there.....

Well if the government of the republic offer it to them without asking too many questions about their allegiances (ie loyalties) then you can't exactly fault the folks who take them up on the offer.

If you offer citizenship to all who were born within the 32 counties then so be it, especially if you claim sovereignty over them (which I don't believe "we" as a republic do anymore anyway). If the people who live in the six who feel no attachment to the republic have this offer put upon them without ever even asking for it, then you can hardly blame them for it being available, can you?

If the Norwegian government said to the people of Ireland - "Lads, we were just thinking about this, and we remembered that we were the ones who built Waterford and Limerick, and whatever. So anyone fancy a Norwegian passport? Come back and be part of our country if you want. There might even be a few bob from that Corrib gas field in it for you!"

Would ya take it?

missroro

up the irish...." tiocfaidh ar la"

Cavehill Red

Deleted User wrote: »

If the Norwegian government said to the people of Ireland - "Lads, we were just thinking about this, and we remembered that we were the ones who built Waterford and Limerick, and whatever. So anyone fancy a Norwegian passport? Come back and be part of our country if you want. There might even be a few bob from that Corrib gas field in it for you!"

Would ya take it?

No, but then again I'm a nationalist. I could see why others might. Principles don't put bread on the table, after all.
But this is a different sityeeashun. These people are Irish. They also feel an affinity to Britain, and are as a result of the opinion of political leaders and the people of both Britain and Ireland, entitled to dual nationality as they choose.
I've had a British passport in the past, but travel exclusively on an Irish one now. I acknowledge a British influence and involvement in who I am, culturally, politically and educationally. It would be a denial of reality not to.
I know that this is, as someone already said, more of an abuse of the Scottish fees system than it is of the Irish passport. Nevertheless, I can only see it as a good thing, as it may help a young generation of the province's brightest Protestants to think a little about to what extent and in what ways they might be Irish, and how that might be of benefit to them.

golden lane

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No, but then again I'm a nationalist. I could see why others might. Principles don't put bread on the table, after all.
But this is a different sityeeashun. These people are Irish. They also feel an affinity to Britain, and are as a result of the opinion of political leaders and the people of both Britain and Ireland, entitled to dual nationality as they choose.
I've had a British passport in the past, but travel exclusively on an Irish one now. I acknowledge a British influence and involvement in who I am, culturally, politically and educationally. It would be a denial of reality not to.
I know that this is, as someone already said, more of an abuse of the Scottish fees system than it is of the Irish passport. Nevertheless, I can only see it as a good thing, as it may help a young generation of the province's brightest Protestants to think a little about to what extent and in what ways they might be Irish, and how that might be of benefit to them.

sityeeashun......don't know why, but you reminded me of an old friend from the sixties......from ardoyne.....

Cavehill Red

golden lane wrote: »

sityeeashun......don't know why, but you reminded me of an old friend from the sixties......from ardoyne.....

Not that old, but I know Ardoyne well.

golden lane

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Not that old, but I know Ardoyne well.

it would have changed a lot since then.....i went to belfast last september for a few day......just kept getting lost, driving around was a nightmare....mainly because i was thinking i knew where i was going....lots of great change.....

Cavehill Red

golden lane wrote: »

it would have changed a lot since then.....i went to belfast last september for a few day......just kept getting lost, driving around was a nightmare....mainly because i was thinking i knew where i was going....lots of great change.....

One upside to the bombing campaign is that it made it possible to build a proper motorway and road system right through the city, and create lots of excellent new buildings.
It's about the only upside, mind you.

Princess Peach

I don't think much of it at all. They are getting it to use it to their advantage, no harm done really.

I know a good few foreign people who have Irish parents or grandparents and apply for an Irish passport. Their main reason to get it is to gain access to the EU and its labour market.

Fair play really. Gotta take every opportunity you can in life to get ahead. I know if I qualified for a passport of a country that could be beneficial to me I'd get it, regardless of my "loyalty" or whatever to the country.