Rob Penney - new Munster coach

Teferi

jm08 wrote: »

I don't think there would be a problem as long as his replacement was up to scratch.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough...Can you imagine the media storm that ROG will wind up if he is phased out or dropped?

Teferi

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't think the bold part is relevant at all really.

Yep, he was a class player and has a winning mentality. Could be good in a coaching set up if he worked at it.

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

You see that's the issue, the replacement most likely will have teething problems and at times have poor moments in aspects that ROG is still strong in (game management, kicking points).

If Keatley performs consistently in the Rabbo, no one will be getting on his back. He needs to that first.

You only have to look at how Irish fans (from certain quarters) and the media jumped on Sexton when he was missing a few kicks and demanding ROG starts, despite Sexton playing a better all around game. We saw them getting their wish in the WC against Wales and it ended in disaster. If Penney knows how ROG has been acting in the media since Sexton entered the picture for Ireland he should really take him aside and in no uncertain terms that these outbursts would not be accepted under his watch. If Penney doesnt do this his job will be made all the more difficult.

Answer me this, if Madigan was starting for Leinster in the knock-out stages of the Heineken Cup and he wasn't getting his kicks (similar situation to Sexton & world cup/6 Nations), would you not be calling for someone else to be taking the kicks who would get them?

No coach (or club management) worth their salt gives two jots what the media thinks. If that was the case, Anthony Foley would be now the Munster head coach.

Fishooks12

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't think the bold part is relevant at all really.

or correct, limited now yes but he had a fantastic pass back in the day and read the game superbly

ormond lad

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't think the bold part is relevant at all really.

I suppose not but is ROG really the person we need to get the most out of our young outside backs. If i was to pick any player, currently on a munster contract, to become backs coach it would be dougie

jm08

ormond lad wrote: »

I suppose not but is ROG really the person we need to get the most out of our young outside backs. If i was to pick any player, currently on a munster contract, to become backs coach it would be dougie

The really great players don't always make the best coaches. The ones who have to work at it may well be better because they have to think and work at it.

As a very limited player, O'Gara got a lot out of himself;)

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

If Keatley performs consistently in the Rabbo, no one will be getting on his back. He needs to that first.

He needs an extended run with the firsts before you write him off. Watching Madigan over the last few years for the A’s and then the firsts I can tell you he mixes the sublime with the terrible but the more game time he has gotten the more it’s the former rather than the latter. Look at Jackson in Ulster, he was having some dire games with the boot and some poor showings of game management for the Irish Under 20’s and yet he started for Ulster in the HC semi final.

Answer me this, if Madigan was starting for Leinster in the knock-out stages of the Heineken Cup and he wasn't getting his kicks (similar situation to Sexton & world cup/6 Nations), would you not be calling for someone else to be taking the kicks who would get them?

The Leinster situation isn’t a good example as Sexton (or Berquist from the few games we saw of him) do not have the same issues with their game as ROG now has. A much better example is the Irish situation in the World Cup as we had Sexton (who had the team as a whole playing better, was better defensively but missing his kicks) and ROG (who was if anything taking away from the team's back play, a defensive liability but getting his kicks). In this choice for Ireland or Leinster I’d pick the former to start every time. This is the situation that Munster are in as Keatley (or Hanrahan in a year or so) could bring much more to the team than ROG is currently but at the expense of the kicking percentages. They mightnt get the last second drop goal but Munster are much more likely to not need it.

The challenge for Penney, if he decides to phase ROG out, is to deal with fans and media with a similar mindset to you that will rear their heads the second Munster lose a game by a couple of points and the new outhalf missed a few kicks.

No coach (or club management) worth their salt gives two jots what the media thinks. If that was the case, Anthony Foley would be now the Munster head coach.

I think it’s extremely naive to think that fan and media pressure has no influence coaches.

dtpc191991

Mr.Applepie wrote: »

How so? We have excellent back at the moment - it's how they are coached and used that is the problem.

What it should hopefully lead to is more competition for places which can only be a good thing

Currently Munster are playing a gameplan that is very similar to Ireland's. It's a 10 man gameplan that leads ultimately to slow ball. Players like Ryan, Earls, Jones, O'Mahoney etc have talents that would be much better suited to a Leinster or Ulster style gameplan. I personally don't think Earls has ever played to his potential. He could be world class but he needs a coach who understands back play. Kidney and McGahan never provided that for him. If Penney brings this then it will benefit Ireland as it will help get the best out of those players at club level which will, ultimately lead to them being more rounded players when they come to play at the top level. However you are correct we do have excellent backs and indeed Kidney will have to go if Ireland's problems are to be fully cured.

colman1212

ormond lad wrote: »

ROG should be nowhere near the coaching set up, most definately not now and IMO not ever. What munster need as a backs coach is a top of the range coach not an about to retire/recently retired fairly limited outhalf. We need a backs coach who will be able to get everything out of the likes of our young enough outside backs like jones, zebo, earls, barnes and would rog as a coach be able to do that? Most likely not

A munster man calling ROG a fairly limited outhalf?!
You should be ashamed of yourself!!
One of our greatest players of all time.

twinytwo

Foxtrol wrote: »

He needs an extended run with the firsts before you write him off. Watching Madigan over the last few years for the A’s and then the firsts I can tell you he mixes the sublime with the terrible but the more game time he has gotten the more it’s the former rather than the latter. Look at Jackson in Ulster, he was having some dire games with the boot and some poor showings of game management for the Irish Under 20’s and yet he started for Ulster in the HC semi final.



The Leinster situation isn’t a good example as Sexton (or Berquist from the few games we saw of him) do not have the same issues with their game as ROG now has. A much better example is the Irish situation in the World Cup as we had Sexton (who had the team as a whole playing better, was better defensively but missing his kicks) and ROG (who was if anything taking away from the team's back play, a defensive liability but getting his kicks). In this choice for Ireland or Leinster I’d pick the former to start every time. This is the situation that Munster are in as Keatley (or Hanrahan in a year or so) could bring much more to the team than ROG is currently but at the expense of the kicking percentages. They mightnt get the last second drop goal but Munster are much more likely to not need it.

The challenge for Penney, if he decides to phase ROG out, is to deal with fans and media with a similar mindset to you that will rear their heads the second Munster lose a game by a couple of points and the new outhalf missed a few kicks.



I think it’s extremely naive to think that fan and media pressure has no influence coaches.

when all is said and done, whatever way people want to spin it...rog hasnt got much left in the tank at this stage. Someone is going to be taking over from him at some point it would be better for both munster/ireland and himself him penney took the bulls by the horn and started phazing him out of the starting position.

Teferi

colman1212 wrote: »

A munster man calling ROG a fairly limited outhalf?!
You should be ashamed of yourself!!
One of our greatest players of all time.

Ah that's a bit hysterical.

You can recognise that he is a great player while acknowledging that he is limited, which he is.

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

He needs an extended run with the firsts before you write him off. Watching Madigan over the last few years for the A’s and then the firsts I can tell you he mixes the sublime with the terrible but the more game time he has gotten the more it’s the former rather than the latter. Look at Jackson in Ulster, he was having some dire games with the boot and some poor showings of game management for the Irish Under 20’s and yet he started for Ulster in the HC semi final.

I'm not writing Keatly off - what I'm saying is that he needs to be as good as o'gara if he wants to take over (and that shouldn't be a big ask ). As for Jackson, Pienaar was running the show. I would not have put any money on an Ulster win with a halfback partnership of Jackson/Marshall.

The Leinster situation isn’t a good example as Sexton (or Berquist from the few games we saw of him) do not have the same issues with their game as ROG now has. A much better example is the Irish situation in the World Cup as we had Sexton (who had the team as a whole playing better, was better defensively but missing his kicks) and ROG (who was if anything taking away from the team's back play, a defensive liability but getting his kicks). In this choice for Ireland or Leinster I’d pick the former to start every time. This is the situation that Munster are in as Keatley (or Hanrahan in a year or so) could bring much more to the team than ROG is currently but at the expense of the kicking percentages. They mightnt get the last second drop goal but Munster are much more likely to not need it.

I thought OGara did a good audition against Italy at the world cup - 4 tries wasn't it. Ireland nearly lost to Italy in the 6Ns with Sexton starting. Ireland put in a great defensive effort against Australia - that was about it (and O'Gara got 30 mins at OH for that game). Its not just getting your kicks, it also means that the opposition can risk giving away penalties if they know they are not going to be punished. Nearly every game of importance were 2/3 pts between winning and losing.

The challenge for Penney, if he decides to phase ROG out, is to deal with fans and media with a similar mindset to you that will rear their heads the second Munster lose a game by a couple of points and the new outhalf missed a few kicks.

I think you are underestimating the intelligence of Munster supporters. O'Gara has missed lots of important kicks in his day and no one has criticised him for it. I don't think Keatley's kicking is a massive issue to be honest, its his game management that needs massive improvement. If it comes to it, both Murray & Hanrahan can develop their kicking.

I think it’s extremely naive to think that fan and media pressure has no influence coaches.

No, they don't. Foley was the popular media choice and more than likely would have done a good job for Munster. Munster Rugby did what they think is best for Munster.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

I'm not writing Keatly off - what I'm saying is that he needs to be as good as o'gara if he wants to take over (and that shouldn't be a big ask ). As for Jackson, Pienaar was running the show. I would not have put any money on an Ulster win with a halfback partnership of Jackson/Marshall.

Before I respond, I need to know, how much of that sentence is sarcasm?

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

Before I respond, I need to know, how much of that sentence is sarcasm?

The bit in brackets

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

I thought OGara did a good audition against Italy at the world cup - 4 tries wasn't it. Ireland nearly lost to Italy in the 6Ns with Sexton starting. Ireland put in a great defensive effort against Australia - that was about it (and O'Gara got 30 mins at OH for that game).

You just couldnt help yourself, could you;

jm08

leftleg wrote: »

You just couldnt help yourself, could you;

Looks like I'm not the only one who can't help themselves. (sarcasm)

Give it a rest will you.

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

Looks like I'm not the only one who can't help themselves. (sarcasm)

Give it a rest will you.

The irony of it

Junior

Ahh lads - please not more ROG debate.. I did ask the question in the run in to the announcement of the new coach if Umaga was named as back coaches where would that have left Dougie, interesting to see what develops from here, will he want to change any more of the back room team such as conditioning/rehab/physio etc.

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

I'm not writing Keatly off - what I'm saying is that he needs to be as good as o'gara if he wants to take over (and that shouldn't be a big ask ). As for Jackson, Pienaar was running the show. I would not have put any money on an Ulster win with a halfback partnership of Jackson/Marshall.

I thought OGara did a good audition against Italy at the world cup - 4 tries wasn't it. Ireland nearly lost to Italy in the 6Ns with Sexton starting. Ireland put in a great defensive effort against Australia - that was about it (and O'Gara got 30 mins at OH for that game). Its not just getting your kicks, it also means that the opposition can risk giving away penalties if they know they are not going to be punished. Nearly every game of importance were 2/3 pts between winning and losing.

I think you are underestimating the intelligence of Munster supporters. O'Gara has missed lots of important kicks in his day and no one has criticised him for it. I don't think Keatley's kicking is a massive issue to be honest, its his game management that needs massive improvement. If it comes to it, both Murray & Hanrahan can develop their kicking.

No, they don't. Foley was the popular media choice and more than likely would have done a good job for Munster. Munster Rugby did what they think is best for Munster.

I’m really not interested in getting in to a long running argument with you as I can never tell how much you actually believe what you are saying or are rather just looking to get a rise or arguing for the sake of it.

I will make the following brief points on what you’ve posted above and leave it there:

- It shouldn’t be about him being better than ROG in all aspects of play for every second he’s on the pitch; it should rather be what is the best for Munster rugby in the long term.

- I’m going not going to even give your second paragraph the dignity of a response.

- Yes ROG missed many a kick but there wasn’t someone on the bench with ROG’s current kicking skills and fans base loyalty (blind at times).

- Big difference between the media and a few fans preferring the blazers hire a certain coach, when many are already delighted that there has been a change of coach in the first place, and the pressure a young coach will be put under if he benches a hero for a young outhalf who puts in a few poor performances that cost games. Just look at the fan and media campaign to start ROG in the WC and look where that got us. It this sort of pressure I fear being put under Penney, especially with a fan favourite heir apparent waiting in the wings to take over from him.

phog

Saw this link on twitter

Foxtrol

Junior wrote: »

Ahh lads - please not more ROG debate..

Agreed and apologies. The talk of areas where Penney would face pressure invariably ended up with “someone” disagreeing that it was an issue. At this stage I should have known better than to respond.

Otacon

phog wrote: »

Saw this link on twitter

I like that he basically started as an Academy Manager and coach. Similar to Foley, he should feel comfortable giving youth a chance.

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

I’m really not interested in getting in to a long running argument with you as I can never tell how much you actually believe what you are saying or are rather just looking to get a rise or arguing for the sake of it.

I will make the following brief points on what you’ve posted above and leave it there:

- It shouldn’t be about him being better than ROG in all aspects of play for every second he’s on the pitch; it should rather be what is the best for Munster rugby in the long term.

- I’m going not going to even give your second paragraph the dignity of a response.

- Yes ROG missed many a kick but there wasn’t someone on the bench with ROG’s current kicking skills and fans base loyalty (blind at times).

- Big difference between the media and a few fans preferring the blazers hire a certain coach, when many are already delighted that there has been a change of coach in the first place, and the pressure a young coach will be put under if he benches a hero for a young outhalf who puts in a few poor performances that cost games. Just look at the fan and media campaign to start ROG in the WC and look where that got us. It this sort of pressure I fear being put under Penney, especially with a fan favourite heir apparent waiting in the wings to take over from him.

Neither am I interested in a long debate either, but there assumptions made (not all by you) that I don't agree with. For instance:

Penney will prefer Casey Laulala to Earls because Casey was coached by Penney in the past.
ROG will do his nut if Keatley is picked ahead of him.
The press will go mad if Keatley is picked ahead of ROG etc. etc. etc.
Foley would be afraid to drop one of his old pals (when he has already dropped DOC for Ryan).

The first thing the coach will do is look after his own career, and if he thinks Earls is better than Casey, he will pick Earls.The same goes for Keatley & o'gara. Munster Rugby went for Penney over Foley - why - they put the province first, not the individuals involved in it. Did O'Gara (or his fans) create a stir in the media because he wasn't first choice 10 during the 6Ns. I don't recall seeing Sexton criticised because Ireland had a poor 6Ns and shouts for O'Gara to be reinstated (except from Shane Horgan that is!). Ireland needing a kicker on the field was the main reason Sexton was dropped during the world cup - he was kicking was about 40%. Even if it was 60% he might have got away with it (though good international kickers would want to be on 70/80%).

Without Howlett, Munster had a very young and inexperienced backline this season (from 9 to 15) so it would have been rough on Keatley to throw him into that. I don't expect Keatley to be perfect, but he needs to be better than he has been particularly in his game management. I think he should be given every opportunity to practice that in the Pro 12, but if it comes to the Heineken Cup, I'd prefer if the best outhalf for the job was selected even if they are 40!

The media have been pushing strongly for Axel's appointment and Munster have done what they thought was best.

Penney is 48, so he isn't really a young coach.

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

Did O'Gara (or his fans) create a stir in the media because he wasn't first choice 10 during the 6Ns.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ill-play-till-im-38-ronan-ogara-3061894.html

Podge_irl

If anything I think Penney increases the chances of Earls starting at 13 (however marginally). McGahan clearly signed Laulala with the intention of starting him at 13 next season imo, but seeing as Penney is not the one who signed him he may see things differently.

Seems like a sound appointment by Munster anyway, but the backs coach will be key.

CatFromHue

Regarding Earls playing 13. At the moment they've no one else to do it. Granted Johne Murphy has filled in there and in fairness has done a good job but I wouldn't view him as a permanent 13.

Munsters squad is lopsided in that this season they've a pile of second rowers, scrum halves, and wingers but only Mafi, Barnes, and Earls as recognised centres. There was Chambers too but he was a strange signing (if i remember right he was recruited to cover Munster backs at the RWC i.e. Earls) and left early enough in the season. Three centres is too few for a team of Munsters standing. The signing of Lualala and Downey will give them depth in this area and I'm sure Earls will definitely be in the mix for the 13 jersey.

phog

leftleg wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ill-play-till-im-38-ronan-ogara-3061894.html

That article that you linked was dated 27/3/12 which was 10 after the 6Ns finsihed after a very bad day in Twickenham on 17/3/12.

irishbucsfan

phog wrote: »

leftleg wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ill-play-till-im-38-ronan-ogara-3061894.html

That article that you linked was dated 27/3/12 which was 10 after the 6Ns finsihed after a very bad day in Twickenham on 17/3/12.

He got confused between that article and the other one where O'Gara said he was on the bench for developmental purposes.

Hard to keep track of all these has-beenesque interviews.

Tox56

phog wrote: »

That article that you linked was dated 27/3/12 which was 10 after the 6Ns finsihed after a very bad day in Twickenham on 17/3/12.

Unless I've missed the point here I don't see why that makes any difference?

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He got confused between that article and the other one where O'Gara said he was on the bench for developmental purposes.

Hard to keep track of all these has-beenesque interviews.

when you pride yourself on pedantry, you can use that to win any battle...

fitz

Tox56 wrote: »

phog wrote: »

That article that you linked was dated 27/3/12 which was 10 after the 6Ns finsihed after a very bad day in Twickenham on 17/3/12.

Unless I've missed the point here I don't see why that makes any difference?

The point is stronger with the "development" article, as pointed out by irishbucsfan.
However, based on his recent behaviour, I reckon it's pretty naive to think that O'Gara won't do more whining in the media if Penney decides to start benching him. ROG's ego and tendency to run his mouth is something that Penney is going to have to deal with.

omerin

Wish him well for the coming season, but its one hell of a challenge

CatFromHue

omerin wrote: »

Wish him well for the coming season, but its one hell of a challenge

It sure is. Even Joe Schmidt remarked at how busy his job is compared to what he did in Clermont which was even more busy than what he did in NZ. The ITM Cup is 3 to 4 months long and the Super rugby used to be about that too. In Ireland the season is September to May, you're competing in two different competitions, and then you also have the International call ups and player welfare schemes to deal with. None of this Penney would have had to deal with before.

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

Unless I've missed the point here I don't see why that makes any difference?

Is it not your contention that ogara starts a media campaign, who support him with the result that the coach has to pick him!

So tell me then, how many games did Ogara start in the 6ns?

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

If anything I think Penney increases the chances of Earls starting at 13 (however marginally). McGahan clearly signed Laulala with the intention of starting him at 13 next season imo, but seeing as Penney is not the one who signed him he may see things differently.

Seems like a sound appointment by Munster anyway, but the backs coach will be key.

What was to become of Zebo (who isn't good bench material) then or do you think he was going to bench Earls? More than likely Howlett will be on the other wing.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

Unless I've missed the point here I don't see why that makes any difference?

Is it not your contention that ogara starts a media campaign, who support him with the result that the coach has to pick him!

So tell me then, how many games did Ogara start in the 6ns?

I don't have a contention, it's just he was using the article to reply to when you said:

"Did O'Gara (or his fans) create a stir in the media because he wasn't first choice 10 during the 6Ns."

And the quoted article was one example where he did, I'm not getting into a ROG argument again.

phog

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He got confused between that article and the other one where O'Gara said he was on the bench for developmental purposes.

Hard to keep track of all these has-beenesque interviews.

Have you a link?

Tox56 wrote: »

Unless I've missed the point here I don't see why that makes any difference?

You've missed the point.

fitz wrote: »

The point is stronger with the "development" article, as pointed out by irishbucsfan.
However, based on his recent behaviour, I reckon it's pretty naive to think that O'Gara won't do more whining in the media if Penney decides to start benching him. ROG's ego and tendency to run his mouth is something that Penney is going to have to deal with.

I suppose it depends on what some see as whining/mouthing off or others see as an honest interview but let's wait and see.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

What was to become of Zebo (who isn't good bench material) then or do you think he was going to bench Earls? More than likely Howlett will be on the other wing.

He would have ended up on the bench I imagine. He doesn't need to be good bench material with Earls on the pitch as he covers most positions.

Its irrelevant as McGahan is gone but there is no way I'm believing Laulala was signed by him to bench.

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

He would have ended up on the bench I imagine. He doesn't need to be good bench material with Earls on the pitch as he covers most positions.

Its irrelevant as McGahan is gone but there is no way I'm believing Laulala was signed by him to bench.

He wasn't signed to bench - with Earls Ireland commitments etc. he is going to get plenty of gametime. As I mentioned earlier, Earls played 9 games for Munster this season out of a possible 27/28.

Laulala was signed as a replacement for the these 13s - Chambers/Barry/Murphy/Tipoki. Munster need at least 4 centres and they have now - Earls, Laulala, Barnes & Downey.

Benny Cake

Incidentally, I see lalala named in the RDP12 team of the year. Hopefully he can bring that form with him for next season...

CIARAN_BOYLE

CatFromHue wrote: »

It sure is. Even Joe Schmidt remarked at how busy his job is compared to what he did in Clermont which was even more busy than what he did in NZ. The ITM Cup is 3 to 4 months long and the Super rugby used to be about that too. In Ireland the season is September to May, you're competing in two different competitions, and then you also have the International call ups and player welfare schemes to deal with. None of this Penney would have had to deal with before.

In fairness Joe is the Head Coach, the backs coach and the defense coach. If he had a backs coach and a defense coach his job would be a lot lighter.

Flincher

Newstalk said Penney insisted that Foley continue as his forwards coach. I think that eases concerns about there being an issue of one stepping on the other's toes.

Garrett Fitzgerald said Penney wanted continuity from McGahan's team, and insisted on that at the second round of interviews, and was very keen the Foley stay on board.

theKramer

Flincher wrote: »

Newstalk said Penney insisted that Foley continue as his forwards coach. I think that eases concerns about there being an issue of one stepping on the other's toes.

Garrett Fitzgerald said Penney wanted continuity from McGahan's team, and insisted on that at the second round of interviews, and was very keen the Foley stay on board.

Shows as well that he has a bit of a clue what is going on in Munster, and that he did his research, knowing that Foley is so highly rated in Munster. That would make me confident that he will get us back where we should be...

totallegend

Benny Cake wrote: »

Incidentally, I see lalala named in the RDP12 team of the year. Hopefully he can bring that form with him for next season...

There is no surprise in that; he is a top-class player and I think the Munster fans are deluding themselves that he is being signed as squad cover and that Earls will be the first-choice 13 next year.

jm08

Exclusive interview with Rob Penney

http://www.eveningecho.ie/2012/05/04/exclusive-interview-with-rob-penney-conor-george/

Says basically - enthusiastic about working with Axel, has someone in mind as backs coach.

Comes across very well and well clued into Munster.

phog

theKramer wrote: »

Shows as well that he has a bit of a clue what is going on in Munster, and that he did his research, knowing that Foley is so highly rated in Munster. That would make me confident that he will get us back where we should be...

He's coached Borlase and Lualua before so he may well have spoken to them, I'm sure he touched base Gibbs and/or Schmidt too and there's a laod of former Munster players from NZ that he could have talked to before deciding on throwing his hat in the ring.